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Dairy Chitchat 4, an udder new thread.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mod note: New thread, folks.

Old thread link below

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057901177&page=250

Buford T. Justice

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Say my name

Mooooo wrote: »

Did the same happen with a "top" je bull as well?. Surely semen fertility should be step 1 in any bull put to the market...

And it's not rocket science to test for.
The same test happens on farm with bull fertility testing.
All you need is a microscope, sample and pair of eyes.

jaymla627

mahoney_j wrote: »

Use of these genomic bulls needs to come with a health warning reliability of them dropped big time advice before was 6 bulls now 10
Plus and they maintain relability is improving

the 10 plus bulls is a get out of jail free card for ai companies, if a lad used say the one bull heavily and ended up with a crap batch of heifers, once they hit the parlour its becomes glarilngly obvious that high ebi genomic bulls are a croc of s88t, but by spreading it out you get less duds, and the farmer dosent see a pattern emerging....
Ordered 100 straws here of a bull used heavily the past 3 years on the back of how good the 1st calvers are that i have a good lot of impossible to do this if using a heap of new bulls every year as you cant see what type of bulls are suiting your herd and what isnt if you only have a few of each bulls heifers calving down yearly

whelan2

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Something along the lines of zero conceptions. One local big operation is supposed to have used 200 of his straws:eek:

Well that's definitely putting all your eggs in one basket. I use 50 per cent proven 50 per cent genomic

mahoney_j

jaymla627 wrote: »

the 10 plus bulls is a get out of jail free card for ai companies, if a lad used say the one bull heavily and ended up with a crap batch of heifers, once they hit the parlour its becomes glarilngly obvious that high ebi genomic bulls are a croc of s88t, but by spreading it out you get less duds, and the farmer dosent see a pattern emerging....
Ordered 100 straws here of a bull used heavily the past 3 years on the back of how good the 1st calvers are that i have a good lot of impossible to do this if using a heap of new bulls every year as you cant see what type of bulls are suiting your herd and what isnt if you only have a few of each bulls heifers calving down yearly

Tbh I don’t put the bulk of the blame at the door of ai companies they have to sell bulls that farmers want tegasc are and have been pushing high ebi bulls as lib on the back of figures generated by the icbf .the big issue is all the base changes and subsequent fluctuations on bulls figures the quality of high ebi genomics has crashed in last 2/3 years

cosatron

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Something along the lines of zero conceptions. One local big operation is supposed to have used 200 of his straws:eek:

I wonder would the ai company be liable for loss of earnings due to selling a product that wasn't fit for purpose.

whelan2

cosatron wrote: »

I wonder would the ai company be liable for loss of earnings due to selling a product that wasn't fit for purpose.

I know in may our ai man said the ai company were recalling straws from a few bulls. He said he didnt carry any of them. So the problem was known early enough

cosatron

whelan2 wrote: »

Well that's definitely putting all your eggs in one basket. I use 50 per cent proven 50 per cent genomic

i used 100% daughter proven this year. its not worth the risk anymore with the icbf figures going up and down like a yoyo. what's funny the last while is all the old Holstein bulls figures are improving with time.

straight

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Something along the lines of zero conceptions. One local big operation is supposed to have used 200 of his straws:eek:

You would think that the dairy heros would know better. His milk index is too low for me to consider anyway.

jaymla627

mahoney_j wrote: »

Tbh I don’t put the bulk of the blame at the door of ai companies they have to sell bulls that farmers want tegasc are and have been pushing high ebi bulls as lib on the back of figures generated by the icbf .the big issue is all the base changes and subsequent fluctuations on bulls figures the quality of high ebi genomics has crashed in last 2/3 years

Ireland has to be the only country that relies so heavily on the lotto testing of bull calves every year, no other ai company internationally would try and sell srm bulls semen to their customers, what irks me is they are getting 20 odd euro plus for straws of their 10k bull calf they buy and you can get imported straws of bulls whos dams if sold and when they where sold would be going for 400k plus for the same price, alot of ai bulls dams mothers in Ireland going of their records wouldnt clear a 1000 euro, its farcical really but anyone that questions it is shouted down our not even given the courtasey of a reply, as a poster on here cant seem to get one of them on twitter this past few months

mahoney_j

straight wrote: »

You would think that the dairy heros would know better. His milk index is too low for me to consider anyway.

Look at most of high ebi bulls now totally unbalanced figures ...in time they’ll get worse

cosatron

mahoney_j wrote: »

Look at most of high ebi bulls now totally unbalanced figures ...in time they’ll get worse

but sure i've got a herd of 200 cows and they all calf down in 6 weeks and eat grass and no nuts and the clusters will be pulled off by the time i'm at the end of the line :pac:

Buford T. Justice XIX

cosatron wrote: »

I wonder would the ai company be liable for loss of earnings due to selling a product that wasn't fit for purpose.

I'd say all that will be returned would be the price of the insemination.

Green&Red

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Anybody use much of FR4854 this year?

Is this the same straw mentioned on the journal about a month back or a new offender?

Green&Red

straight wrote: »

What happened Fr4728. Kilfeacle Pivotal. He seems to be gone off the active list.

I used some of his this year

Buford T. Justice XIX

Green&Red wrote: »

Is this the same straw mentioned on the journal about a month back or a new offender?

No idea, sorry.

awaywithyou

whelan2 wrote: »

Well that's definitely putting all your eggs in one basket. I use 50 per cent proven 50 per cent genomic

ah the operator buford is referring to could be purchasing or using a 1000 or more straws.... but he is supposed to used to have as buford said.. used alot of this bulll in the 1st 3 weeks of breeding

awaywithyou

jaymla627 wrote: »

the 10 plus bulls is a get out of jail free card for ai companies, if a lad used say the one bull heavily and ended up with a crap batch of heifers, once they hit the parlour its becomes glarilngly obvious that high ebi genomic bulls are a croc of s88t, but by spreading it out you get less duds, and the farmer dosent see a pattern emerging....
Ordered 100 straws here of a bull used heavily the past 3 years on the back of how good the 1st calvers are that i have a good lot of impossible to do this if using a heap of new bulls every year as you cant see what type of bulls are suiting your herd and what isnt if you only have a few of each bulls heifers calving down yearly

use all proven bulls from WWS here in the last couple years... a figure i look at very closely is the SCR (sire conception rate) especially when choosin the sexed semen

GrasstoMilk

mahoney_j wrote: »

He put very little cows/heifers in calf

Hows that? I have 40 incalf to him

GrasstoMilk

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Hows that? I have 40 incalf to him

Sorry thats fr 4728

cosatron

awaywithyou wrote: »

use all proven bulls from WWS here in the last couple years... a figure i look at very closely is the SCR (sire conception rate) especially when choosin the sexed semen

how are you finding WWS. I like some of there bulls, who's doing well for you.

Say my name

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

I'd say all that will be returned would be the price of the insemination.

Fair mess up though.

In sport horse ai. The stud farm takes a sample from every jump and its examined under the microscope before the rest is put in straws.

It'd be fairly difficult to get confidence back in farmers now that seemingly corners are being cut by this ai station.

No where near good enough these days.

Siamsa Sessions

Say my name wrote: »

In sport horse ai. The stud farm takes a sample from every jump and its examined under the microscope before the rest is put in straws.

Can the experts, who have little exposure if things go wrong, start looking towards the no-foal-no-fee model maybe???

Say my name

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Can the experts, who have little exposure if things go wrong, start looking towards the no-foal-no-fee model maybe???

Mostly the ai studs won't operate a no foal no fee as they can stand over the semen quality and if there's a problem it won't be on their end. It's only the natural coverings and maybe thoroughbreds who offer that. But it's at the discretion of the stallion owners.
With semen straws it's a very simple check to see if it's viable.

Then there's the semen cost that can be up in the thousands per straw. Or coverings that could be well up in the double k's. And some charge per cover. Totally at the studs discretion.

That's not to say the dairy cow won't earn more than the brood mare and a loss of pregnancy could be more financially harmful in a cow which is guaranteed income where a mare is always gambling.

I'd say the dairy ai company has themselves protected in their small print.

But it's the same as a bad restaurant review, the pr still harms them financially.
Lucky that we don't have a monopoly on bovine ai here in this country yet!

atlantic mist

lad next door used one of pg bulls that only had 10%conception rate, they have since recallled all straws of the bull and covered the cost of initial serve and all repeats, bull passed all quality tests

what i am starting not to like about the ai straws is the watering down of straws of top bulls to get a larger quanity, pushing the use of "fresh" straws for extra price during breeding

yosemitesam1

Say my name wrote: »

Fair mess up though.

In sport horse ai. The stud farm takes a sample from every jump and its examined under the microscope before the rest is put in straws.

It'd be fairly difficult to get confidence back in farmers now that seemingly corners are being cut by this ai station.

No where near good enough these days.

Would imagine that it wasn't a lack of swimmers but some sort of genetic defect that they carried

Say my name

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Would imagine that it wasn't a lack of swimmers but some sort of genetic defect that they carried

Screwy tails and ring a ring rosers would/should be have been checked at collection?
You get semen that just doesn't go through the freezing too. Have to be served fresh those.
But still if you had 200 straws going out a rewarming and testing on 5 of those before breeding season began wouldn't have costed the ai company much.

whelan2

atlantic mist wrote: »

lad next door used one of pg bulls that only had 10%conception rate, they have since recallled all straws of the bull and covered the cost of initial serve and all repeats, bull passed all quality tests

what i am starting not to like about the ai straws is the watering down of straws of top bulls to get a larger quanity, pushing the use of "fresh" straws for extra price during breeding

I used 4728, checked ai book there alot of repeats to him. I will ring ai man tomorrow. These would have been fresh straws. Very obvious the repeats when you look at the book.

Mooooo

2nd cut in and covered. Got feckin sunburnt covering it. Should be ok hopefully, in the main part there was still a good amount of leaf and threw in 8 acres of strong paddocks as well. should have taken a sample of the first cut when opening the pit to see what it was like.
Pit left over from last year got torn and there is a fair bit of waste on it now as the air got in. Wondering should I just leave it till winter and hope the outside layer has sealed itself off or should I open it and strip all the ****e and reseal, I think that may do more harm tho?

tismesoitis

whelan2 wrote: »

I used 4728, checked ai book there alot of repeats to him. I will ring ai man tomorrow. These would have been fresh straws. Very obvious the repeats when you look at the book.

Got 8 out of 10 straws of Fr4728 to hold this year. Had only 3 out of 10 of Fr 5593 hold. Sometimes it can be the luck of the draw. Where was it reported about that other bull being sub fertile?

mf240

Remember years ago lads around here would get the ai man to give the "black polly " to any cow that was repeating.