Edgware wrote: » I think we should all realise by now that Francie is a bluffer and the nearest he has come to the British army/ ira is watching t.v.
Fionn1952 wrote: » Not my place to make a judgement on any man or woman, Downcow (that includes you and all), I will say I've never spotted a claim of IRA membership from Francie though.My point was 100% that it is ridiculous to suggest anyone living in Monaghan would have no experience with the British Army during that period. A point which I presume you would 100% agree and back me on, right?
downcow wrote: » Don’t disagree with any of that. I might word it differently as they knew which community they were safe in
FrancieBrady wrote: » The British army is no different from any army on an individual level...some decent people and some thugs. They all followed orders though and at times of tension they knew the community's to come down hard on.
Fionn1952 wrote: » I wouldn't doubt that nerves and attitude were a factor, Downcow. Granted, I'd be of the opinion that the vast majority of the nerves an attitude came from the teenage and early 20s year old boys stationed in a strange land with no idea what they were doing there. I can assure you that my father was as respectful a man as they came. If anything, my father carried less sectarianism in him than I ever did, growing up in a 'mixed marriage'. I certainly didn't have any nerves or attitude at 5-10 years old when I had rifles pointed in to the back of the car at me. I can understand why the young lads acted the way they did, but I absolutely won't buy your, 'well you probably deserved it' analysis.
downcow wrote: » I don't disagree with you Fionn. It is a chicken and egg situation. I have many nationalist/republican friends who tell me of their experiences at checkpoints. Rifles cocked, etc. but when we chat it is very difficult to sort out who started. They arrived at the checkpoint cheeky and aggressive, or in fairness to them, even just nervous. I arrived at the checkpoint, appreciative and wanting them to feel welcome. It's not difficult to understand why we had very different experiences
downcow wrote: » Be careful you don't let your inside knowledge slip Francie. Most people on here think the IRA have gone. But clearly you and me know differently.
FrancieBrady wrote: » SDLP looking in on the UI act now too. I give it 2 years to the announcement of the first Border Poll.
Fionn1952 wrote: » Just take it from the other side, Downcow. The experience you had going through the checkpoints was VERY different to that of the average Nationalist. I don't blame the young cubs stuck on the border posts, but you have to realise the treatment you received was completely incomparable to that which we did. The vast majority of Nationalists absolutely felt that they weren't wanted.....because the treatment they received at border crossings was atrocious. No amount of sandwiches can normalise shoving rifles in children's faces.
downcow wrote: » I didn't think I would ever be surprised by the of Gerry Adams, but this takes it to another level. I actually can't believe that I'd listened to. It is so ridiculous I don't even start. I suppose if there is anything positive in it it is that he has spoken out against a united Ireland - he says there is no point in a united Ireland with a disaffected minority - well Gerry, that's it then.
downcow wrote: » That was your experience Francie and I don't deny it - I can understand why they would be nervous. I had a very different experience at checkpoints. We invariably had a chat, a bit of crack about football teams, and I always thanked them for their sacrifice to protect us. Always kept a few sweets in the car to share with them. Any time they done a checkpoint at my gate. My kids would always take them sweets or sandwiches. You have it in your head Francie that they felt unwanted, because you would like them to have felt unwanted. I can assure you that the vast majority of the unionist community left them in no doubt how much we appreciated what they were doing. I reckon a fair few nationalists would have probably done the same when they were in the privacy of their car.
Bambi wrote: » Here's an interesting thing, if there had ever been a survey of the men who served in the ASUs in the 20s, the civil war, prison etc., it would probably find a lot of them didnt make it to their 50s, it all took a toll on their health. I'd say with a lot of provos it was the same. WRT to intelligence war, there was book recently published looking at this, it concluded the IRA was not significanly compromised by British intelligence. How true that is I don't know.
Edgware wrote: » Have another read through and you will see "80s". By the time the 90s came Gerry and the Peacemakers knew it was stalemate and decided to get on the Stormont payroll officially
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Yes, I support self-determination for the people in the six counties/NI. What for exactly?
FrancieBrady wrote: » Like I say...claim and counter claim. An organisation 'riddled' with informers doesn't tally with an organisation that was able to negotiate while still fully armed or one that was able to mount attacks in the heart of Britain to nudge them towards a deal. It will be many years before we know the truth. It will be immaterial then as it is now, and that is a good thing.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » The PIRA were assassinating RUC/BA and blowing up British business districts well into the 1990's, somehow the informers couldn't get that info to their handlers.[in the 1990's] it was revealed, reportedly by Sir John Wilsey, the Army’s General Officer Commanding in Northern Ireland that “the PIRA is better equipped, better resourced, better led, bolder and more secure against our penetration than at any time before Journal International Journal of Intelligence and CounterIntelligence Volume 23, 2010 - Issue 1
FrancieBrady wrote: » I met many a squaddie going through checkpoints here, invariably decent young men but to a man, they were nervous, suspicious and hadn't a clue who to trust or what they were dropped into. With everyone of them you got the distinct impression they would rather be anywhere else on the planet than were they were. Any former members of the IRA I have met do not share the above traits and gullible would not be a word I would associate with them. They all knew very definitely what they were involved in and where they were. I would imagine the same could be said of loyalist recruits.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Interesting how Gerry Adams more recently gave more conciliatory soundbites to Unionists about a UI (when he was a TD for Louth) compared to his 1982 panorama interview.Belligerent, intolerant 1982 Gerry: When said there was no Unionist Culture it was a political culture.Mellow Louth TD 2014 Gerry doing his best preacher spiel:@0:34"There is no way we can put the shoe on the other foot. There is no way we want to be part of doing unto our Unionist brothers and sisters, what was done unto us we might have to be innovative"@1:37"There is no point in creating a new state, or a new system of governance on this island And have a large alienated minority of people who would be against what's going on. It has to be governance by the people for the people." 'Unionist brothers and sisters' - cracked me up
Bambi wrote: » yeah, its hard to believe a mans views might soften over the course of almost forty years.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Interesting how Gerry Adams gave more recently gave more conciliatory soundbites to Unionists about a UI (when he was a TD for Louth) compared to his 1982 panorama interview.Belligerent, intolerant 1982 Gerry: When said there was no Unionist Culture it was a political culture.Mellow Louth TD 2014 Gerry doing his best preacher spiel:@0:34"There is no way we can put the shoe on the other foot. There is no way we want to be part of doing unto our Unionist brothers and sisters, what was done unto us we might have to be innovative"@1:37"There is no point in creating a new state, or a new system of governance on this island And have a large alienated minority of people who would be against what's going on. It has to be governance by the people for the people." 'Unionist brothers and sisters' - cracked me up
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Yes, they were lured to the IRA with glossy brochures and promises of adventure and not by seeing their neighbours being beaten and murdered by the security forces. People who joined the Provos were told to expect death or jail, older Republicans often say they never expected to reach old age.
timthumbni wrote: » With a party like SF taking most of the nationalist vote in Northern Ireland it will be very difficult to disassociate with the negative past. You only have to look at their antics recently at the IRA funeral to see just how difficult that will be. And if you ever see their Londonderry MEP being interviewed about any subject you would also understand why unionists and indeed many neutrals feel nothing but distaste and disgust regarding the party. Their island of equals patter is laughable when you look at their other actions.
di11on wrote: » I'll confess right away to not having read through a significant portion of this thread but wanted to chime in here with my thoughts anyway... I've always sympathized with the romantic notion of a united Ireland - but the idea has always seemed tainted for me. I think there are many reasons for this : - Dev and the unfortunate theocracy he created - Violence - The whole sacrifice cultish side of things We went on a family holiday to Korea recently. What struck me really hard was the deep collective sense of sorrow of being devided. They have a strong culture and a common past through the various dynasties and kingdoms on the peninsula and it feels as though everyone feels connected to it and proud. There is a pervasive longing for reunification that permeates everything. Reunification is spoken about as if it is inevitable. It's the only just outcome for these people. I felt jealous of how untainted their desire for reunification is and the efforts to pursue it. I feel Ireland has a chance now to re-own the idea of a united Ireland. If we look at Irish culture today, there are aspects of it that we can be truly proud of - especially when it comes to progressiveness and inclusion. I feel this unites many north and south. I think if we are ever to have a united Ireland, we need a new vision of what that is and what it means that is completely disassociated with the negative things of the past and focuses more on our present strengths. But we need strong leadership to make that happen.
timthumbni wrote: » Yes, Tis a pity the IRA were such slow learners. I mean who would have thought that shooting and bombing your way to a laughably so called “United” Ireland would never work. I don’t think anyone needs to thank the Ira for stopping murdering men, women and children in some pointless provo bloodlust. But I suppose when the loyalist terrorists were starting to murder at similar rates then they realised their murderous game was up. 30 years of terrorist murder btw to allow Gerry to lord it up at some 500 dollar a head banquet with rich dopey Irish Americans. I wonder did they toast their hunger strikers as they tucked into their beef wellingtons.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Like I say...claim and counter claim. An organisation 'riddled' with informers doesn't tally with an organisation that was able to negotiate while still fully armed or one that was able to mount attacks in the heart of Britain to nudge them towards a deal. It will be many years before we know the truth. It will be immaterial then as it is now, the IRA are pursuing purely political avenues and that is a good thing.
