How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

downcow wrote: »

Well have some balls Francie. Be clear with us all.
Select an option below
1) the Quinn murders were because of the twelfth
2) the Quinn murders had nothing to do with the twelfth.

This is developing into one of you most pathetic despicable contributions

You hate my community and you hate my culture

If hate bonfires and what went on at parades and in this particular case the Drumcree stand off, is a part of 'your culture'. YES I do 'HATE' it.

No bones about saying it and never had.

Is that behaviour a part of your culture?

timthumbni

droidman123 wrote: »

What "mainland" are you talking about? I was born and raised in dublin and the only mainland in relation to my country is the mainland of ireland

In relation to the the UK the mainland is Scotland, England and Wales. The rest of the UK would be Northern Ireland.

James Brown

timthumbni wrote: »

In relation to the the UK the mainland is Scotland, England and Wales. The rest of the UK would be Northern Ireland.

I always thought England was the mainland for them as they don't rate Wales, Scotland as equals?

[Deleted User]

timthumbni wrote: »

In relation to the the UK the mainland is Scotland, England and Wales. The rest of the UK would be Northern Ireland.

I dont really care where the uk "mainland" is,rob was talking about how ireland did compared to the uk mainland,i was just wondering does he realise his mistake

timthumbni

Bowie wrote: »

I always thought England was the mainland for them as they don't rate Wales, Scotland as equals?

Then you learn something every night don’t you? # keep watching

[Deleted User]

RobMc59 wrote: »

My mistake,reference to SF is in regards to devolved government.I agree the mainland covid response has been very poor whilst Ireland has handled it well,as has NI.

This is the post i was relating to

timthumbni

droidman123 wrote: »

This is the post i was relating to

Fair enough. Virtual fist pump....

downcow wrote: »

First point last again. Absolutely no suggestion you do not have integrity. Apologies if that was implied.

You say I want everyone to come on and say they support ni self determination. Not at all. One would be good.
I do think you don’t understand republicans. There is no way they accept self determination for NI.

.....and the vast majority of my community have wanted nothing more that self determination.

Well firstly Downcow, I'll at least acknowledge and move on from the sleight on my honesty and integrity.

Secondly, you say you dont want all Republicans to state they would accept self determination, one would suffice. Well you've already got one. I'm an unashamed, staunch Republican who 100% supports self determination for the North, so there's your one.

To get back to the ACTUAL point you raised, you stated that the majority of Republicans on here did not support the right to self determination for the North, and so would not support the GFA. Do you or do you not have evidence for THAT statement?

downcow wrote: »

Here you go fionn.
You wanted evidence sf/ira don’t support self-determination for NI.
sf will be ducking and diving now that a very senior MP has nailed it. Hahaha. I love it.
https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/07/18/we-were-sold-a-pup-with-the-gfa-sinn-fein-mp/

This I'll dismiss very easily with one of the opening lines of the article.

"While I am sure this view does not reflect that of the SF leadership"

Francie Molloy has always been a bit of a wildcard, putting it kindly. Granted, a bit of context would make his reasons quite obvious.

[Deleted User]

timthumbni wrote: »

Fair enough. Virtual fist pump....

Vitual fist pump?

jm08 wrote: »

Some of your community's culture is very, very ugly Downcow. What kind of fanatics would celebrate their ''culture'' by playing music outside the house of the boys' grandmother where their mother was staying when they were asked not to by the RUC?

You keep going back to last century to find issues about my community. That should say it all. Over 3,000 parades every year, and if you make a very conservative estimate of 2,000 at each parade, 6 million participants and spectators per year and you have to go to last century to find dispicable behaviour
Thanks for the great recommendation.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If hate bonfires and what went on at parades and in this particular case the Drumcree stand off, is a part of 'your culture'. YES I do 'HATE' it.

No bones about saying it and never had.

Is that behaviour a part of your culture?

If we can’t talk about the future, can we at least try to stay in this century
We could all make endless list about stuff the other community done last century.

.....but if you want to talk about Drumcree then I will do that, and also provide some more facts for our southern friends to challenge the story put out by republicans

Bowie wrote: »

I always thought England was the mainland for them as they don't rate Wales, Scotland as equals?

You are just displaying your lack of understanding of my community

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Well firstly Downcow, I'll at least acknowledge and move on from the sleight on my honesty and integrity.

Secondly, you say you dont want all Republicans to state they would accept self determination, one would suffice. Well you've already got one. I'm an unashamed, staunch Republican who 100% supports self determination for the North, so there's your one.

To get back to the ACTUAL point you raised, you stated that the majority of Republicans on here did not support the right to self determination for the North, and so would not support the GFA. Do you or do you not have evidence for THAT statement?

This I'll dismiss very easily with one of the opening lines of the article.

"While I am sure this view does not reflect that of the SF leadership"

Francie Molloy has always been a bit of a wildcard, putting it kindly. Granted, a bit of context would make his reasons quite obvious.

Well fionn. To provide yourself as evidence for support for your statement is a stretch.
The silence is deafening from your mates. Seems they don’t agree with you. These are guys who are not shy about posting and rarely miss a chance to put me right on things. Accept it!
As for Francie Molloy, I just picked that as it was a sf MP saying exactly what I was trying to tell you and he said it in the last few days. Your reply is he is a wildcard - have you noticed he is an MP, I think the shinners only ha about 8 members at those heady heights.
You are out of step.
You know whats really funny. You tried to repeat what I asked but you had to replace NI with ‘the north’. You won’t even accept the name we have self-determined LOL

downcow wrote: »

If we can’t talk about the future, can we at least try to stay in this century
We could all make endless list about stuff the other community done last century.

.....but if you want to talk about Drumcree then I will do that, and also provide some more facts for our southern friends to challenge the story put out by republicans

Is the media showing images from last century of the behavior at bonfires?

What your 'community' has shown is that when an independent commission makes sure (despite much hate and anger directed at it) that you are kept away from the community, that 'your cultural festival' celebrates the subduing/defeating off, then you can behave yourselves.

*I have no doubt you have an alternate story about Drumcree, people by archetypal 'friends' and 'members of your wee community' to play the role of the 'real' victims.
The world saw the visceral hate and supremacy on display at that village though and the deadly aftermath.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You keep going back to last century to find issues about my community. That should say it all. Over 3,000 parades every year, and if you make a very conservative estimate of 2,000 at each parade, 6 million participants and spectators per year and you have to go to last century to find dispicable behaviour
Thanks for the great recommendation.

I see you ignored by other post which debunked all your claims that somehow or other the Quinn family made the poor loyalists murder them? Have you no shame whatsoever including that the mother's protestant boyfriend was dealing drugs which I cannot find any reference to anywhere. His crime was he was living with a catholic woman and her children.

As for the uncle and the drugs claim, the defence said that he had tried to give their 3 year old daughter drugs as sweets and that is why they firebombed his nephews house. The judge didn't believe them and called them accomplished liars. The judge said it was a sectarian attack and some sort of a personal grudge between the boys' uncle and the man who killed them.

Maybe you might explain your band culture where they insist on playing music outside the bereaved family's house the week after their murder even when they were told not to by the RUC? (and it wasn't just one band who did it)?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

If we can’t talk about the future, can we at least try to stay in this century
We could all make endless list about stuff the other community done last century.

.....but if you want to talk about Drumcree then I will do that, and also provide some more facts for our southern friends to challenge the story put out by republicans

Well, you keep talking about what the IRA did in the last century, so its hardly surprising if stuff comes up about what the loyalists did in the last century! Have you not noticed that the PIRA has been on ceasefire for all of this century?

gormdubhgorm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Care to provide a specific quote to contextualise that?

Obviously I'll insert the caveat that Gerry Adams speaks for Sinn Fein and is not the sole voice or arbitrator of what Republicans think.

In the context of the Unionist community, I would disagree massively with your attributed statement that they don't have a separate culture. I don't think your reduction of it to just generic British culture does it much justice though. Then again, we're not likely to get anywhere with this discussion as you've acknowledged your narrow view of what constitutes culture is pretty much immovable.

In the case of the Nationalist/Republican section of the North (if we briefly park your idea that all Irish culture is pretty much dead and everyone is basically British anyway), the statement you've attributed to Gerry holds up reasonably well. I'm as culturally Irish as the people who grew up about ten miles from me in Cavan.

There are differences across the island of course, an average middle class 40 year old Dublin Gaeilgeoir has a different perspective and life experience to a 85 year old from Inis Mór. Growing up along the border. I have a different perspective and life experience to you. I'd argue that there is a much greater overarching commonality between those mentioned than there are differences, and a much greater overarching commonality between those groups than between any of them and the average bloke in London or Birmingham.

Likewise, given our shared history, it would be insane to claim or expect that British culture and Irish culture would not overlap. Irish culture of course shares more in common with British culture than it does with, for example Russian culture.

Adams point was from a 1982 Panorama programme.

Great interview he seemed a lot looser in his speech than in later years.

Adams @8:28 - "A political minority not an ethnic minority not even a religious minority. They are minority that is political minority at the moment, right"

Adams @8:30 - "If you carve up a country anybody can be a majority." (Agitated)

Adams @8:48 - "But I mean they are not a different people, how are they a different people? (Incredulous)

Adams @9:00 - "They haven't got different values, they are as oppressed as we are, secondly they have not got a different culture, thirdly they have not got different allegiances, at least not long standing allegiances.
The allegiance from loyalism to the British Crown. It says this in the Orange Oath and so on. Will give thier allegiance to the British Crown for as long as the English Crown protects the Protestant ascendancy, so it is catch 22 situation" (He was on a roll here!)

There was another direct comment where he says again that it is not a culture it is a political culture. I can't find that one. Likewise, I cannot remember exactly where I heard him say - it makes logical sense to have a UI because it is an island.

It is the nub of the whole thing really many Republicans do not 'get' Unionism or even try to understand it.

Also of course thier is thier strong and deep belief that Ireland should be 'reunited' as it is an island. Following the force feeding of years of dogma.
Blinkers are put on and thier is only one way of looking at it as far as they are concerned.

But as I said before Ireland was only ever split because of Republicans in the first place. And it was only the British who ever United Ireland in history.

It was the Republicans who ended up splitting it by thier unintended consequence of 'the struggle'. However, that would never be said as it is too close to the bone and the truth.

jm08 wrote: »

I see you ignored by other post which debunked all your claims that somehow or other the Quinn family made the poor loyalists murder them? Have you no shame whatsoever including that the mother's protestant boyfriend was dealing drugs which I cannot find any reference to anywhere. His crime was he was living with a catholic woman and her children.

As for the uncle and the drugs claim, the defence said that he had tried to give their 3 year old daughter drugs as sweets and that is why they firebombed his nephews house. The judge didn't believe them and called them accomplished liars. The judge said it was a sectarian attack and some sort of a personal grudge between the boys' uncle and the man who killed them.

Maybe you might explain your band culture where they insist on playing music outside the bereaved family's house the week after their murder even when they were told not to by the RUC? (and it wasn't just one band who did it)?

I described the murder as disgusting and despicable. You must have missed that bit.
I was taking offence to Francie raising that disgusting murder in a discussion on the 12th to somehow demonstrate that that those involved in parading had something to do with it. That is a horrible untrue accusation.
Drugs were at the core of it. Even you qualify your claim of sectarianism by suggesting a personal grudge was involved - and you are also raising something I know nothing about ie giving sweets to kids.

As for bands seemingly insisting to play music past their granny’s house. That is plain wrong and I condemn it unequivocally.
The irony. With the kids growing up as prods in a working class community, building the boney and going to parades, it is inevitable some of them would have ended up as members of one of these bands.

This was a horrible chaotic time and most unionist politicians were doing all they could to defuse the situation on the 12th morning, with facts not clear, so you shouldn’t take their words at that time as evidence of anything.

A terrible summer.
4 people including these 3 kids and a terrorist were killed by so-called loyalists
while 31 People, all civilians including 11 children were killed by so-called Irish republicans.

We should all be ashamed by what was done in our name

But I repeat Francie used this tragedy to have a go at my community and culture and I simply presented some facts to bring some context

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Adams point was from a 1982 Panorama programme.

Great interview he seemed a lot looser in his speech than in later years.

Adams @8:28 - "A political minority not an ethnic minority not even a religious minority. They are minority that is political minority at the moment, right"

Adams @8:30 - "If you carve up a country anybody can be a majority." (Agitated)

Adams @8:48 - "But I mean they are not a different people, how are they a different people? (Incredulous)

Adams @9:00 - "They haven't got different values, they are as oppressed as we are, secondly they have not got a different culture, thirdly they have not got different allegiances, at least not long standing allegiances.
The allegiance from loyalism to the British Crown. It says this in the Orange Oath and so on. Will give thier allegiance to the British Crown for as long as the English Crown protects the Protestant ascendancy, so it is catch 22 situation" (He was on a roll here!)

There was another direct comment where he says again that it is not a culture it is a political culture. I can't find that one. Likewise, I cannot remember exactly where I heard him say - it makes logical sense to have a UI because it is an island.

It is the nub of the whole thing really many Republicans do not 'get' Unionism or even try to understand it.

Also of course thier is thier strong and deep belief that Ireland should be 'reunited' as it is an island. Following the force feeding of years of dogma.
Blinkers are put on and thier is only one way of looking at it as far as they are concerned.

But as I said before Ireland was only ever split because of Republicans in the first place. And it was only the British who ever United Ireland in history.

It was the Republicans who ended up splitting it by thier unintended consequence of 'the struggle'. However, that would never be said as it is too close to the bone and the truth.

Very interesting interview. Little wonder their campaign collapsed when you listen to some of that nonsense. Just very sad that it took over 3,000 deaths for Gerry &co to reach that point.

downcow wrote: »

But I repeat Francie used this tragedy to have a go at my community and culture and I simply presented some facts to bring some context

'Your wee festival' is only now passing off relatively peacefully because an independent commission has stopped you from parading in contentious areas. I.E. it passes off peacefully because 'there isn't a Taig about the place' for your community to antagonise and taunt mostly. Examples of this taunting have been given here and there are many many more.
Now if you could go a step further and stop the obscenities that take place around bonfires and if the OO accept the above and work with the Parades Commission you might be shown how to win back hearts and minds.
But that would probably require the OO to accept that by virtue of it's own constitution, an archaic and bigoted sectarian organisation and fall on it's own sword.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But as I said before Ireland was only ever split because of Republicans in the first place. And it was only the British who ever United Ireland in history.

It was the Republicans who ended up splitting it by thier unintended consequence of 'the struggle'. However, that would never be said as it is too close to the bone and the truth.

Nothing to do with Carson and Craig playing soldiers and putting the gun back into Irish politics?

It's all dem republicans fault.

downcow wrote: »

Well fionn. To provide yourself as evidence for support for your statement is a stretch.
The silence is deafening from your mates. Seems they don’t agree with you. These are guys who are not shy about posting and rarely miss a chance to put me right on things. Accept it!
As for Francie Molloy, I just picked that as it was a sf MP saying exactly what I was trying to tell you and he said it in the last few days. Your reply is he is a wildcard - have you noticed he is an MP, I think the shinners only ha about 8 members at those heady heights.
You are out of step.
You know whats really funny. You tried to repeat what I asked but you had to replace NI with ‘the north’. You won’t even accept the name we have self-determined LOL

Once more Downcow I'll remind you that you're the one making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you to provide evidence for your point, not everyone else to disprove it. So I'll ask a fourth time, do you have any evidence to back up your statement that the majority of Republicans on here do not support self determination/the GFA?

With Francie Molloy, I'll once more remind you of the line in the article you actually presented which specifically states that his statement is out of step with the general SF position. We could both play the game of taking random snippets from single politicians. If I was to present a few choice Sammy Wilson or Gregory Campbell quotes, it wouldn't reflect too well on Unionists, but I wouldn't take their nutjob young earth creationism stances as representative of all of Unionism for example.

Finally, with regards to the North, I'd suggest you look back over my last few posts, where I freely move back and forth between the North and NI. I generally refer to home as the North, but I very clearly have no issue with referring to NI either.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Your wee festival' is only now passing off relatively peacefully because an independent commission has stopped you from parading in contentious areas. I.E. it passes off peacefully because 'there isn't a Taig about the place' for your community to antagonise and taunt mostly. Examples of this taunting have been given here and there are many many more.
Now if you could go a step further and stop the obscenities that take place around bonfires and if the OO accept the above and work with the Parades Commission you might be shown how to win back hearts and minds.
But that would probably require the OO to accept that by virtue of it's own constitution, an archaic and bigoted sectarian organisation and fall on it's own sword.

Wrong again Francie with saying parades only take place where there is ‘not a tail about the place’
Parades take place everywhere that sf don’t have enough control over the nationalist community and where reasonably tolerant people who accept diversity are in the majority.

Really you statement is ridiculous. eg
Rossnowlagh 12th and endless towns across NI eg Newcastle 70% nationalist and all the businesses look forward to the 12th, black Saturday, band parades and all very peaceful festivals in a beautiful setting. ....and you know the list is endless.
Why do you try so hard to misrepresent my culture. Oh I forgot, you despise it

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Once more Downcow I'll remind you that you're the one making the claim, the burden of proof lies with you to provide evidence for your point, not everyone else to disprove it. So I'll ask a fourth time, do you have any evidence to back up your statement that the majority of Republicans on here do not support self determination/the GFA?

With Francie Molloy, I'll once more remind you of the line in the article you actually presented which specifically states that his statement is out of step with the general SF position. We could both play the game of taking random snippets from single politicians. If I was to present a few choice Sammy Wilson or Gregory Campbell quotes, it wouldn't reflect too well on Unionists, but I wouldn't take their nutjob young earth creationism stances as representative of all of Unionism for example.

Finally, with regards to the North, I'd suggest you look back over my last few posts, where I freely move back and forth between the North and NI. I generally refer to home as the North, but I very clearly have no issue with referring to NI either.

Fionn I am not trawling back though posts just to prove to you what we all know and what the silence from your mates demonstrate. If you like I’ll ask one or two of them directly here for you?

And you are evidencing again that you are out of step with most NI republicans (and fair play to you) by referring to NI

downcow wrote: »

Fionn I am not trawling back though posts just to prove to you what we all know and what the silence from your mates demonstrate. If you like I’ll ask one or two of them directly here for you?

And you are evidencing again that you are out of step with most NI republicans (and fair play to you) by referring to NI

Holy goalposts shifting, Batman!

You've just accused me of refusing to refer to NI, I'd appreciate if you at least acknowledged your error before trying to steamroll another pointless dig at Republicanism there. I suspect an apology would be too much to expect though.

Republicans choice to refer to NI as the North is no worse than Unionists insistence on erroneously referring to it as Ulster.

You call it trawling through posts.....I'd call it providing very basic evidence for your statement.

Like I said, 'Downcow is in the UVF' would be a ridiculous statement to make, right? If I refused to provide evidence for a statement like that because I couldn't be bothered trawling through your several thousand posts, it would be dismissed pretty quickly, right? But then again, we don't have any posts where you DENY being in the UVF.....is that evidence of your membership, Downcow?

downcow wrote: »

Wrong again Francie with saying parades only take place where there is ‘not a tail about the place’
Parades take place everywhere that sf don’t have enough control over the nationalist community and where reasonably tolerant people who accept diversity are in the majority.

Really you statement is ridiculous. eg
Rossnowlagh 12th and endless towns across NI eg Newcastle 70% nationalist and all the businesses look forward to the 12th, black Saturday, band parades and all very peaceful festivals in a beautiful setting. ....and you know the list is endless.
Why do you try so hard to misrepresent my culture. Oh I forgot, you despise it

Rossnowlagh is in Donegal where SF got several quota's in the GE.

Once more you blow your own argument out of the water.

The reason some parades don't cause bother is more likely to do with some of your community being moderates and not antagonising and taunting.

Blaming SF for your people's behaviour...we really are stretching here.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Holy goalposts shifting, Batman!

You've just accused me of refusing to refer to NI, I'd appreciate if you at least acknowledged your error before trying to steamroll another pointless dig at Republicanism there. I suspect an apology would be too much to expect though.

Republicans choice to refer to NI as the North is no worse than Unionists insistence on erroneously referring to it as Ulster.

You call it trawling through posts.....I'd call it providing very basic evidence for your statement.

Like I said, 'Downcow is in the UVF' would be a ridiculous statement to make, right? If I refused to provide evidence for a statement like that because I couldn't be bothered trawling through your several thousand posts, it would be dismissed pretty quickly, right? But then again, we don't have any posts where you DENY being in the UVF.....is that evidence of your membership, Downcow?

I think you misunderstood by post. I was affirming you for referring to Northern Ireland, and I very much appreciate it I regard it as a very respectable gesture from someone who referred themselves as a Republican. I was pointing out that is out of step with most Republicans.

Your UVF example is like comparing apples with pairs (I avoided the obvious there).
If you said that most of the posters on here thought I was in the UVF, then I would expect posters to be more than willing to come on and challenge that.
Anyhow your request was that I find one poster who does not agree with the right of the people of Northern Ireland to exercise self-determination. So let's take a random few.

Junkyard Tom, Francie, Bonnie do you support the right of the people of Northern Ireland to exercise self-determination?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Rossnowlagh is in Donegal where SF got several quota's in the GE.

Once more you blow your own argument out of the water.

The reason some parades don't cause bother is more likely to do with some of your community being moderates and not antagonising and taunting.

Blaming SF for your people's behaviour...we really are stretching here.

I think you will find Francie that I did not refer to Sinn Fein having a majority, I referred Sinn Fein's ability to control the people. They are losing that ability areas. That was my point.
I haven't checked but I am pretty sure Sinn Fein are the biggest party in the other random area I mentioned i.e. Newcastle, but fortunately there are not too many of the Bobby Story types around Newcastle, so that people are not afraid of Sinn Fein

downcow wrote: »

I think you misunderstood by post. I was affirming you for referring to Northern Ireland, and I very much appreciate it I regard it as a very respectable gesture from someone who referred themselves as a Republican. I was pointing out that is out of step with most Republicans.

Your UVF example is like comparing apples with pairs (I avoided the obvious there).
If you said that most of the posters on here thought I was in the UVF, then I would expect posters to be more than willing to come on and challenge that.
Anyhow your request was that I find one poster who does not agree with the right of the people of Northern Ireland to exercise self-determination. So let's take a random few.

Junkyard Tom, Francie, Bonnie do you support the right of the people of Northern Ireland to exercise self-determination?

Once more, the burden of proof lies with you. To take your random few, it is down to you to provide evidence that those posters do not support the right of the people of NI to exercise self determination. It isn't down to anyone else to prove your point for you. Either you can evidence your statement or you can't. The absence of negative evidence is not positive evidence itself.