How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But as I said before Ireland was only ever split because of Republicans in the first place. And it was only the British who ever United Ireland in history.

It was the Republicans who ended up splitting it by thier unintended consequence of 'the struggle'. However, that would never be said as it is too close to the bone and the truth.

Nothing to do with Carson and Craig playing soldiers and putting the gun back into Irish politics?

It's all dem republicans fault.

downcow wrote: »

But I repeat Francie used this tragedy to have a go at my community and culture and I simply presented some facts to bring some context

'Your wee festival' is only now passing off relatively peacefully because an independent commission has stopped you from parading in contentious areas. I.E. it passes off peacefully because 'there isn't a Taig about the place' for your community to antagonise and taunt mostly. Examples of this taunting have been given here and there are many many more.
Now if you could go a step further and stop the obscenities that take place around bonfires and if the OO accept the above and work with the Parades Commission you might be shown how to win back hearts and minds.
But that would probably require the OO to accept that by virtue of it's own constitution, an archaic and bigoted sectarian organisation and fall on it's own sword.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Adams point was from a 1982 Panorama programme.

Great interview he seemed a lot looser in his speech than in later years.

Adams @8:28 - "A political minority not an ethnic minority not even a religious minority. They are minority that is political minority at the moment, right"

Adams @8:30 - "If you carve up a country anybody can be a majority." (Agitated)

Adams @8:48 - "But I mean they are not a different people, how are they a different people? (Incredulous)

Adams @9:00 - "They haven't got different values, they are as oppressed as we are, secondly they have not got a different culture, thirdly they have not got different allegiances, at least not long standing allegiances.
The allegiance from loyalism to the British Crown. It says this in the Orange Oath and so on. Will give thier allegiance to the British Crown for as long as the English Crown protects the Protestant ascendancy, so it is catch 22 situation" (He was on a roll here!)

There was another direct comment where he says again that it is not a culture it is a political culture. I can't find that one. Likewise, I cannot remember exactly where I heard him say - it makes logical sense to have a UI because it is an island.

It is the nub of the whole thing really many Republicans do not 'get' Unionism or even try to understand it.

Also of course thier is thier strong and deep belief that Ireland should be 'reunited' as it is an island. Following the force feeding of years of dogma.
Blinkers are put on and thier is only one way of looking at it as far as they are concerned.

But as I said before Ireland was only ever split because of Republicans in the first place. And it was only the British who ever United Ireland in history.

It was the Republicans who ended up splitting it by thier unintended consequence of 'the struggle'. However, that would never be said as it is too close to the bone and the truth.

Very interesting interview. Little wonder their campaign collapsed when you listen to some of that nonsense. Just very sad that it took over 3,000 deaths for Gerry &co to reach that point.

jm08 wrote: »

I see you ignored by other post which debunked all your claims that somehow or other the Quinn family made the poor loyalists murder them? Have you no shame whatsoever including that the mother's protestant boyfriend was dealing drugs which I cannot find any reference to anywhere. His crime was he was living with a catholic woman and her children.

As for the uncle and the drugs claim, the defence said that he had tried to give their 3 year old daughter drugs as sweets and that is why they firebombed his nephews house. The judge didn't believe them and called them accomplished liars. The judge said it was a sectarian attack and some sort of a personal grudge between the boys' uncle and the man who killed them.

Maybe you might explain your band culture where they insist on playing music outside the bereaved family's house the week after their murder even when they were told not to by the RUC? (and it wasn't just one band who did it)?

I described the murder as disgusting and despicable. You must have missed that bit.
I was taking offence to Francie raising that disgusting murder in a discussion on the 12th to somehow demonstrate that that those involved in parading had something to do with it. That is a horrible untrue accusation.
Drugs were at the core of it. Even you qualify your claim of sectarianism by suggesting a personal grudge was involved - and you are also raising something I know nothing about ie giving sweets to kids.

As for bands seemingly insisting to play music past their granny’s house. That is plain wrong and I condemn it unequivocally.
The irony. With the kids growing up as prods in a working class community, building the boney and going to parades, it is inevitable some of them would have ended up as members of one of these bands.

This was a horrible chaotic time and most unionist politicians were doing all they could to defuse the situation on the 12th morning, with facts not clear, so you shouldn’t take their words at that time as evidence of anything.

A terrible summer.
4 people including these 3 kids and a terrorist were killed by so-called loyalists
while 31 People, all civilians including 11 children were killed by so-called Irish republicans.

We should all be ashamed by what was done in our name

But I repeat Francie used this tragedy to have a go at my community and culture and I simply presented some facts to bring some context

gormdubhgorm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Care to provide a specific quote to contextualise that?

Obviously I'll insert the caveat that Gerry Adams speaks for Sinn Fein and is not the sole voice or arbitrator of what Republicans think.

In the context of the Unionist community, I would disagree massively with your attributed statement that they don't have a separate culture. I don't think your reduction of it to just generic British culture does it much justice though. Then again, we're not likely to get anywhere with this discussion as you've acknowledged your narrow view of what constitutes culture is pretty much immovable.

In the case of the Nationalist/Republican section of the North (if we briefly park your idea that all Irish culture is pretty much dead and everyone is basically British anyway), the statement you've attributed to Gerry holds up reasonably well. I'm as culturally Irish as the people who grew up about ten miles from me in Cavan.

There are differences across the island of course, an average middle class 40 year old Dublin Gaeilgeoir has a different perspective and life experience to a 85 year old from Inis Mór. Growing up along the border. I have a different perspective and life experience to you. I'd argue that there is a much greater overarching commonality between those mentioned than there are differences, and a much greater overarching commonality between those groups than between any of them and the average bloke in London or Birmingham.

Likewise, given our shared history, it would be insane to claim or expect that British culture and Irish culture would not overlap. Irish culture of course shares more in common with British culture than it does with, for example Russian culture.

Adams point was from a 1982 Panorama programme.

Great interview he seemed a lot looser in his speech than in later years.

Adams @8:28 - "A political minority not an ethnic minority not even a religious minority. They are minority that is political minority at the moment, right"

Adams @8:30 - "If you carve up a country anybody can be a majority." (Agitated)

Adams @8:48 - "But I mean they are not a different people, how are they a different people? (Incredulous)

Adams @9:00 - "They haven't got different values, they are as oppressed as we are, secondly they have not got a different culture, thirdly they have not got different allegiances, at least not long standing allegiances.
The allegiance from loyalism to the British Crown. It says this in the Orange Oath and so on. Will give thier allegiance to the British Crown for as long as the English Crown protects the Protestant ascendancy, so it is catch 22 situation" (He was on a roll here!)

There was another direct comment where he says again that it is not a culture it is a political culture. I can't find that one. Likewise, I cannot remember exactly where I heard him say - it makes logical sense to have a UI because it is an island.

It is the nub of the whole thing really many Republicans do not 'get' Unionism or even try to understand it.

Also of course thier is thier strong and deep belief that Ireland should be 'reunited' as it is an island. Following the force feeding of years of dogma.
Blinkers are put on and thier is only one way of looking at it as far as they are concerned.

But as I said before Ireland was only ever split because of Republicans in the first place. And it was only the British who ever United Ireland in history.

It was the Republicans who ended up splitting it by thier unintended consequence of 'the struggle'. However, that would never be said as it is too close to the bone and the truth.

downcow wrote: »

If we can’t talk about the future, can we at least try to stay in this century
We could all make endless list about stuff the other community done last century.

.....but if you want to talk about Drumcree then I will do that, and also provide some more facts for our southern friends to challenge the story put out by republicans

Well, you keep talking about what the IRA did in the last century, so its hardly surprising if stuff comes up about what the loyalists did in the last century! Have you not noticed that the PIRA has been on ceasefire for all of this century?

downcow wrote: »

You keep going back to last century to find issues about my community. That should say it all. Over 3,000 parades every year, and if you make a very conservative estimate of 2,000 at each parade, 6 million participants and spectators per year and you have to go to last century to find dispicable behaviour
Thanks for the great recommendation.

I see you ignored by other post which debunked all your claims that somehow or other the Quinn family made the poor loyalists murder them? Have you no shame whatsoever including that the mother's protestant boyfriend was dealing drugs which I cannot find any reference to anywhere. His crime was he was living with a catholic woman and her children.

As for the uncle and the drugs claim, the defence said that he had tried to give their 3 year old daughter drugs as sweets and that is why they firebombed his nephews house. The judge didn't believe them and called them accomplished liars. The judge said it was a sectarian attack and some sort of a personal grudge between the boys' uncle and the man who killed them.

Maybe you might explain your band culture where they insist on playing music outside the bereaved family's house the week after their murder even when they were told not to by the RUC? (and it wasn't just one band who did it)?

downcow wrote: »

If we can’t talk about the future, can we at least try to stay in this century
We could all make endless list about stuff the other community done last century.

.....but if you want to talk about Drumcree then I will do that, and also provide some more facts for our southern friends to challenge the story put out by republicans

Is the media showing images from last century of the behavior at bonfires?

What your 'community' has shown is that when an independent commission makes sure (despite much hate and anger directed at it) that you are kept away from the community, that 'your cultural festival' celebrates the subduing/defeating off, then you can behave yourselves.

*I have no doubt you have an alternate story about Drumcree, people by archetypal 'friends' and 'members of your wee community' to play the role of the 'real' victims.
The world saw the visceral hate and supremacy on display at that village though and the deadly aftermath.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Well firstly Downcow, I'll at least acknowledge and move on from the sleight on my honesty and integrity.

Secondly, you say you dont want all Republicans to state they would accept self determination, one would suffice. Well you've already got one. I'm an unashamed, staunch Republican who 100% supports self determination for the North, so there's your one.

To get back to the ACTUAL point you raised, you stated that the majority of Republicans on here did not support the right to self determination for the North, and so would not support the GFA. Do you or do you not have evidence for THAT statement?

This I'll dismiss very easily with one of the opening lines of the article.

"While I am sure this view does not reflect that of the SF leadership"

Francie Molloy has always been a bit of a wildcard, putting it kindly. Granted, a bit of context would make his reasons quite obvious.

Well fionn. To provide yourself as evidence for support for your statement is a stretch.
The silence is deafening from your mates. Seems they don’t agree with you. These are guys who are not shy about posting and rarely miss a chance to put me right on things. Accept it!
As for Francie Molloy, I just picked that as it was a sf MP saying exactly what I was trying to tell you and he said it in the last few days. Your reply is he is a wildcard - have you noticed he is an MP, I think the shinners only ha about 8 members at those heady heights.
You are out of step.
You know whats really funny. You tried to repeat what I asked but you had to replace NI with ‘the north’. You won’t even accept the name we have self-determined LOL

Bowie wrote: »

I always thought England was the mainland for them as they don't rate Wales, Scotland as equals?

You are just displaying your lack of understanding of my community

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If hate bonfires and what went on at parades and in this particular case the Drumcree stand off, is a part of 'your culture'. YES I do 'HATE' it.

No bones about saying it and never had.

Is that behaviour a part of your culture?

If we can’t talk about the future, can we at least try to stay in this century
We could all make endless list about stuff the other community done last century.

.....but if you want to talk about Drumcree then I will do that, and also provide some more facts for our southern friends to challenge the story put out by republicans

jm08 wrote: »

Some of your community's culture is very, very ugly Downcow. What kind of fanatics would celebrate their ''culture'' by playing music outside the house of the boys' grandmother where their mother was staying when they were asked not to by the RUC?

You keep going back to last century to find issues about my community. That should say it all. Over 3,000 parades every year, and if you make a very conservative estimate of 2,000 at each parade, 6 million participants and spectators per year and you have to go to last century to find dispicable behaviour
Thanks for the great recommendation.

timthumbni wrote: »

Fair enough. Virtual fist pump....

Vitual fist pump?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

First point last again. Absolutely no suggestion you do not have integrity. Apologies if that was implied.

You say I want everyone to come on and say they support ni self determination. Not at all. One would be good.
I do think you don’t understand republicans. There is no way they accept self determination for NI.

.....and the vast majority of my community have wanted nothing more that self determination.

Well firstly Downcow, I'll at least acknowledge and move on from the sleight on my honesty and integrity.

Secondly, you say you dont want all Republicans to state they would accept self determination, one would suffice. Well you've already got one. I'm an unashamed, staunch Republican who 100% supports self determination for the North, so there's your one.

To get back to the ACTUAL point you raised, you stated that the majority of Republicans on here did not support the right to self determination for the North, and so would not support the GFA. Do you or do you not have evidence for THAT statement?

downcow wrote: »

Here you go fionn.
You wanted evidence sf/ira don’t support self-determination for NI.
sf will be ducking and diving now that a very senior MP has nailed it. Hahaha. I love it.
https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/07/18/we-were-sold-a-pup-with-the-gfa-sinn-fein-mp/

This I'll dismiss very easily with one of the opening lines of the article.

"While I am sure this view does not reflect that of the SF leadership"

Francie Molloy has always been a bit of a wildcard, putting it kindly. Granted, a bit of context would make his reasons quite obvious.

timthumbni

droidman123 wrote: »

This is the post i was relating to

Fair enough. Virtual fist pump....

RobMc59 wrote: »

My mistake,reference to SF is in regards to devolved government.I agree the mainland covid response has been very poor whilst Ireland has handled it well,as has NI.

This is the post i was relating to

timthumbni

Bowie wrote: »

I always thought England was the mainland for them as they don't rate Wales, Scotland as equals?

Then you learn something every night don’t you? # keep watching

timthumbni wrote: »

In relation to the the UK the mainland is Scotland, England and Wales. The rest of the UK would be Northern Ireland.

I dont really care where the uk "mainland" is,rob was talking about how ireland did compared to the uk mainland,i was just wondering does he realise his mistake

James Brown

timthumbni wrote: »

In relation to the the UK the mainland is Scotland, England and Wales. The rest of the UK would be Northern Ireland.

I always thought England was the mainland for them as they don't rate Wales, Scotland as equals?

timthumbni

droidman123 wrote: »

What "mainland" are you talking about? I was born and raised in dublin and the only mainland in relation to my country is the mainland of ireland

In relation to the the UK the mainland is Scotland, England and Wales. The rest of the UK would be Northern Ireland.

downcow wrote: »

Well have some balls Francie. Be clear with us all.
Select an option below
1) the Quinn murders were because of the twelfth
2) the Quinn murders had nothing to do with the twelfth.

This is developing into one of you most pathetic despicable contributions

You hate my community and you hate my culture

If hate bonfires and what went on at parades and in this particular case the Drumcree stand off, is a part of 'your culture'. YES I do 'HATE' it.

No bones about saying it and never had.

Is that behaviour a part of your culture?

RobMc59 wrote: »

My mistake,reference to SF is in regards to devolved government.I agree the mainland covid response has been very poor whilst Ireland has handled it well,as has NI.

What "mainland" are you talking about? I was born and raised in dublin and the only mainland in relation to my country is the mainland of ireland

downcow wrote: »

Well have some balls Francie. Be clear with us all.
Select an option below
1) the Quinn murders were because of the twelfth
2) the Quinn murders had nothing to do with the twelfth.

This is developing into one of you most pathetic despicable contributions

You hate my community and you hate my culture

Some of your community's culture is very, very ugly Downcow. What kind of fanatics would celebrate their ''culture'' by playing music outside the house of the boys' grandmother where their mother was staying when they were asked not to by the RUC?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Drumcree, is held before the 12th. Is it a part of the 12th? I don't know.

What I do know is that house was attacked as tensions rose around marching at Drumcree.

If the cap fits and it is a part of 'your favourite festival', wear it. I'm not bothered about the distinction to be honest.

Well have some balls Francie. Be clear with us all.
Select an option below
1) the Quinn murders were because of the twelfth
2) the Quinn murders had nothing to do with the twelfth.

This is developing into one of you most pathetic despicable contributions

You hate my community and you hate my culture

downcow wrote: »

I see Francie has disappeared, when asked to justify why he said that the Quinn children were killed because of the twelfth.
I am sure Francie knows the facts of the situation, but because he has planted the seed in many southerners heads I think it is worth expanding a little.

This was an horrendous despicable act that turned almost everyone's stomach in Northern Ireland, and indeed across the world.
Three beautiful young children burned to their deaths by scumbags.

These three young children were reared as Protestants and lived in a predominantly, but not exclusively, Protestant estate in Ballymoney. They naturally went to their local Protestant school and the vast majority of their friends were also Protestant.
They had helped with the building of the bonfire in the lead up to the 11th night, and that very evening they had been at the bonfire. They were intending to go and enjoy the 12th the next day

Their mother was from a mixed marriage and their father was estranged. Their mum was living with a loyalist who was mixed up in drugs trade. There had been a simmering feud in the area around drugs control and their mums partner was involved - he also had a string of offences. Their mums brother had also fallen out with the assailants around drugs a week previously and they had threatened him.
The assailants were UVF scumbag drug dealers
Late on the 11th night early twelfth morning the house had a petrol bomb thrown into it. Their mum, her sibling and her loyalist partner escaped the house, and the three lovely boys were horrifically burned to death.

Now there is no question Francie knows the story. For him to raise it to score points against my community festival, the twelfth, is absolutely despicable. But sure that is nothing new. .... Don't let the truth get in the way of a chance to have a good boot at the prods

Shame on you Downcow for twisting the Quinn boys story.

No. 1: Both parents were catholics. The boys' mother had come from a mixed marriage.

No. 2: They were not brought up as protestants. They just went to the State school rather than a catholic school because the area they lived in was predominantly protestant. Their mother encouraged the boys to make friends with their protestant neighbours so as they would not get any hasslel.
No. 3: The week prior to the 12th and the fire bombing of the Quinn home,

''The Ballymoney Times reported a story the week of the deaths, stating that a resident of the Carnany estate called in and was concerned about tension in the area adding something serious might happen "unless Catholic residents were left alone".

No. 4: The Orange Order made a statement disassociating themselves from it, but saying that it was a sectarian attack.
No. 5: Ian Paisley said ''described the killings as "diabolical", "repugnant" and it "stained Protestantism". He also said that the IRA had done much worse!
No. 6: The Mrs Quinn moved back to her mother's home where they buried the boys.

A number of loyalist bands defied RUC requests not to play music while marching past the boys' grandmother's house in the days after the killings.

7. The judge's comments:

The judge said it was a "UVF attack with a clear inference that its motive was sectarian". It came as a wave of violence swept Northern Ireland in the wake of the Drumcree Orange Order parade stand-off.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

So over 20 years on since the GFA and you think it's all a big hoax and the Provos have just been on holidays to lure you into a false sense of security?

Your attempts to credit only David Trimble for the GFA are very transparent, Downcow. And yes, it was impressive. Possibly one of the most impressive treaties in modern history.

As is your attempt to reduce the 3000+ deaths during the Troubles as totally the fault of the Republican community, with no acknowledgement of the festering situation which led to the PIRA, the actions of British armed forces or Loyalist paramilitaries (often in tandem). No, 'side' sat down at the table with clean hands during the GFA negotiations, Downcow.

You've got the biggest, 'I believe in self determination for the people of NI' possible - support for the GFA and PIRA decommissioning. SF have repeatedly stated their support for the GFA, and endlessly stated that they would continue to work towards unification using exclusively peaceful, democratic means.

It's becoming quite clear that your idea of support for self-determination exclusively means support for NI remaining part of the UK. It is perfectly plausible for SF to support the idea of self-determination for the North while maintaining aspirations towards unification.

All of this aside, just to point you back on track - you stated that the majority of Republicans on this thread do not support the right to self-determination for the people of NI. For the third or fourth time, can you give examples on this thread of a few Republicans stating that they do not support the GFA? I can personally think of potentially one post across the thread that would imply leanings towards dissident Republicanism, but the vast majority? I don't think so.

Here you go fionn.
You wanted evidence sf/ira don’t support self-determination for NI.
sf will be ducking and diving now that a very senior MP has nailed it. Hahaha. I love it.
https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/07/18/we-were-sold-a-pup-with-the-gfa-sinn-fein-mp/

downcow wrote: »

I am not good at searching old posts but you are a master at it. So why don’t you post both the comment you responded to and the response.
Say what you like. You were associating this terrible tragedy with my favourite festival.
If you can’t find it then rather than playing silly nasty games, you can put it all to bed by saying ‘the murder of those three kids had nothing to do with the twelfth’
I’ll not hold my breath

Drumcree, is held before the 12th. Is it a part of the 12th? I don't know.

What I do know is that house was attacked as tensions rose around marching at Drumcree.

If the cap fits and it is a part of 'your favourite festival', wear it. I'm not bothered about the distinction to be honest.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't the 12th downcow. I very clearly attributed those deaths to tensions arising from people trying to get to march down a road.

I am not good at searching old posts but you are a master at it. So why don’t you post both the comment you responded to and the response.
Say what you like. You were associating this terrible tragedy with my favourite festival.
If you can’t find it then rather than playing silly nasty games, you can put it all to bed by saying ‘the murder of those three kids had nothing to do with the twelfth’
I’ll not hold my breath

downcow wrote: »

You are a laugh. It was you who tried to use their deaths to have a dog at my festival.
I am happy now that everyone has heard the two sides to now leave it

I didn't the 12th downcow. I very clearly attributed those deaths to tensions arising from people trying to get to march down a road.