How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

I'm worried that a UI would be accompanied by terrorist attacks by Unionist paramilitaries angry and upset that they are no longer a part of Great Britain.

Well we are not part of Great Britain anyhow, but that's a little pedantic of me, I am sure you mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I don't actually think there would be a sustained terrorist campaign by Unionists. Certainly there is the potential for sporadic stuff, and there is the potential of a sustained campaign, but unlikely I think.
Much more of a worry for you should be dealing with what those of us who love Northern Ireland have dealt with for the past 50 years i.e. a significant minority who are fairly determined to ensure state does not work, and who have aspirations to not belong to it.
This is the real conundrum for those living in the Republic of Ireland. You will suddenly have 1 million Unionists who do not feel part of it and want to disassociate with it, who will not work for its benefit and will be agitating for change and for more and more autonomy. They will never be satisfied. It will be like feeding the crocodiles.
They will be a minority feeling discriminated against in the land that they have lived in and called home for 400 years. You will be under serious pressure to transform all about Irish culture and identity so as these 1 million minority feel included - and even then, they will still not feel included
This is just the reality

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You've already lost that, it's not your wee country any more. If unionists had deigned to share the north then this whole UI thing might have been a thing of the past but ye are incapable of it.

Sure you're still ****ting the bed over the Irish language. A UI will be achieved in spite of Unionism.

You are displaying your bigotry again junkyard, and worse than that, trying to include me in it.
When I refer to Our Wee Country the 'our' refers to everyone living in Northern Ireland who wants to see our wee country move forward, nationalist, Unionist, Newcomer, etc

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Bonfires with hate filled people burning effigies of the recently dead and flags of countries they don't like is 'culture' now?

I don't hate your culture downcow, I hate belligerents of all creeds and politics.

You were celebrating the fact that the 12th passed off without any trouble. That is just sad in so many respects.

Well sure you tell us what trouble there was on the 12th this year.
And I did not say that it passed off without any trouble. There was certainly trouble as nationalists use that fires in the middle of the Road and stoned the police.

And it is a bit pathetic to put down a celebration which involves hundreds of thousands of people just because a few behave in an inappropriate manner. That would be like putting down the entire St Patrick's Day celebration just because of being offended by those who burn my flag

munsterlegend wrote: »

Most people down here refer to the north. Everybody understands what is meant as you did. I have no hang ups by saying ni either as I have often done in the past.

Yeah trust you to have selective blindness and deflect from the naked hatred of the 12th. Why have a public holiday which half the population don’t buy into? It’s crazy. Anyway you keep celebrating the hatred if it makes you happy.

I think you will find half of the Northern Ireland population don't buy into St Patrick's Day celebrations, and it's a public holiday. More selective blindness

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I can't think of very many Republicans on here or in my normal life who don't support the GFA, Downcow.

By the very nature of the GFA, anyone who supports it does not fall under your description. By supporting the GFA, people inherently support the right of NI to self determine, it's kind of the whole point of it.

My own view is quite simple, and I suspect the umbrella that the vast majority of Republicans would fall under. I would like to see the people of the North exercise their right to self determination to CHOOSE unification. You may be able to find one or two examples of people on here from a Republican perspective who don't fall within that general outlook, but a MAJORITY? I think not.

If you feel it is the majority view, can you point out a handful of regular posters who have stated they do not support the GFA and the right of NI to self-determine?

I'm not even going to touch the gross simplification that is stating that the reason for aspiration towards unity is solely based on the fact that we're one island, that's been done to death.

if you are correct, that is wonderful news. I suspect though you are out of step with the majority of the Bobby story funeral types. I doubt very much if they inherently support the right of NI to self determine

[Deleted User]

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You've already lost that, it's not your wee country any more. If unionists had deigned to share the north then this whole UI thing might have been a thing of the past but ye are incapable of it.

Sure you're still ****ting the bed over the Irish language. A UI will be achieved in spite of Unionism.

I'm worried that a UI would be accompanied by terrorist attacks by Unionist paramilitaries angry and upset that they are no longer a part of Great Britain.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I will completely accept the referendum whatever direction it goes, but I will do all I can (reasonably peacefully) to maintain OWC

You've already lost that, it's not your wee country any more. If unionists had deigned to share the north then this whole UI thing might have been a thing of the past but ye are incapable of it.

Sure you're still ****ting the bed over the Irish language. A UI will be achieved in spite of Unionism.

downcow wrote: »

You just can’t hide your hatred for my culture.
Would you apply the same desire to cancelled st pats parades, fleadhs, etc. I guess not

Bonfires with hate filled people burning effigies of the recently dead and flags of countries they don't like is 'culture' now?

I don't hate your culture downcow, I hate belligerents of all creeds and politics.

You were celebrating the fact that the 12th passed off without any trouble. That is just sad in so many respects.

Fionn1952

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But that is exactly what Gerry Adams claimed. He also claimed NI does not have a separate culture! It is only a 'political' culture. :rolleyes:

For me that is some mental gymnastics. In NI those who view themselves as British all speak the language of the mainland. Also they identify with British culture in general sense as well as politically.

Care to provide a specific quote to contextualise that?

Obviously I'll insert the caveat that Gerry Adams speaks for Sinn Fein and is not the sole voice or arbitrator of what Republicans think.

In the context of the Unionist community, I would disagree massively with your attributed statement that they don't have a separate culture. I don't think your reduction of it to just generic British culture does it much justice though. Then again, we're not likely to get anywhere with this discussion as you've acknowledged your narrow view of what constitutes culture is pretty much immovable.

In the case of the Nationalist/Republican section of the North (if we briefly park your idea that all Irish culture is pretty much dead and everyone is basically British anyway), the statement you've attributed to Gerry holds up reasonably well. I'm as culturally Irish as the people who grew up about ten miles from me in Cavan.

There are differences across the island of course, an average middle class 40 year old Dublin Gaeilgeoir has a different perspective and life experience to a 85 year old from Inis Mór. Growing up along the border. I have a different perspective and life experience to you. I'd argue that there is a much greater overarching commonality between those mentioned than there are differences, and a much greater overarching commonality between those groups than between any of them and the average bloke in London or Birmingham.

Likewise, given our shared history, it would be insane to claim or expect that British culture and Irish culture would not overlap. Irish culture of course shares more in common with British culture than it does with, for example Russian culture.

RobMc59 wrote: »

That's probably the right way although I did think Ireland aren't being particularly diplomatic about the way they are getting the message across. There are eyebrows being raised apparently in the US regarding Ireland's brusque attitude towards US travellers ,it might not be forgotten when Ireland is trying to wheedle backing from Irish americans.

We are in the middle of a world wide pandemic. Tourism will be affected everywhere until this is resolved. Illegal Irish immigrants being sent home does not stop Irish people visiting USA. Unless people are completely stupid they will fully understand why quarantine is necessary from countries like the USA and U.K.

downcow wrote: »

Oh dear!
Only on republicans could refuse to even say the name of the country they were referring (unless of course you were including the behaviour of those Donegal yahoos)

The public holiday is for the 12th. I have never ever seen any of the behaviour you are talking anoint on the 12th

Most people down here refer to the north. Everybody understands what is meant as you did. I have no hang ups by saying ni either as I have often done in the past.

Yeah trust you to have selective blindness and deflect from the naked hatred of the 12th. Why have a public holiday which half the population don’t buy into? It’s crazy. Anyway you keep celebrating the hatred if it makes you happy.

gormdubhgorm

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'm not even going to touch the gross simplification that is stating that the reason for aspiration towards unity is solely based on the fact that we're one island, that's been done to death.

But that is exactly what Gerry Adams claimed. He also claimed NI does not have a separate culture! It is only a 'political' culture. :rolleyes:

For me that is some mental gymnastics. In NI those who view themselves as British all speak the language of the mainland. Also they identify with British culture in general sense as well as politically.

RobMc59

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

St Patrick was a Welshman a Brit. Most famous 'honorary Irishman' after St Jack. Plus a crowd of mostly protestant English born players went to visit the Pope in Rome back in 1990! Again close cultural ties between both countries is shown here.

Personally I don't have much time for all that religion guff.It is just people looking for something to cling on to. Looking for a 'badge' and safety net of sorts.

If you look at it what is the rate of regular mass going in NI or the ROI? Most don't bother in the ROI anyway. I think the lack of real interest in religion these days is just another thing both Britain and the ROI have in common.

As for the Orange marches I don't think they are a good thing. If people don't like them ignore them. However, Catholics can hardly claim the moral high ground when it comes treatment of those from another religion.
You only have to look up the ancient Order of Hibernians

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/make-way-for-the-molly-maguires-the-ancient-order-of-hibernians-and-the-irish-parliamentary-party-1902-14/

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:83jfzeTk9hkJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ancient-order-must-adapt-or-disappear-1.176810+&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

or Ne Temere decree from the catholic church in 1907

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dekHulEiCpIJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/research-finds-protestant-obsession-with-ne-temere-1.120625+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

And of course the 'Baptism Barrier' in ROI schools which created hassle for second generation Irish kids who might not be of the Catholic faith. Only was removed in 2019!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/baptism-barrier-to-catholic-schools-to-go-next-year-1.3488198

I find anyone who crows about thier religion is always looking for trouble. It is yet another reason why I do not want all that crap brought into a UI if at all possible.
But the reality is if Catholics and Protestants were real Christians (in truest sense) they would not use thier versions of Christianity as an excuse for a row.

TLDR: Ireland is full of hypocrisy over religion (Catholics and Protestants), people who rarely practice it yet some use it as badge. Plus Nordies are particular headbangers when it comes to religion. If thier is ever a UI or Ireland rejoins the commonwealth. I hope there is a separation of church and state as Ireland is now a more secular homogeneous society.

The general consensus amongst republicans on this thread seems anti joining the Commonwealth despite it being viewed as cutting off your nose to spite your face by many.The Commonwealth could be a platform for Ireland to network with other nations outside the EU.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

I agree with most of what you are saying except I think you are being a little economical with the facts to not admit that most republicans on here believe that the whole island should self-determine based on the big bit of water around it

I can't think of very many Republicans on here or in my normal life who don't support the GFA, Downcow.

By the very nature of the GFA, anyone who supports it does not fall under your description. By supporting the GFA, people inherently support the right of NI to self determine, it's kind of the whole point of it.

My own view is quite simple, and I suspect the umbrella that the vast majority of Republicans would fall under. I would like to see the people of the North exercise their right to self determination to CHOOSE unification. You may be able to find one or two examples of people on here from a Republican perspective who don't fall within that general outlook, but a MAJORITY? I think not.

If you feel it is the majority view, can you point out a handful of regular posters who have stated they do not support the GFA and the right of NI to self-determine?

I'm not even going to touch the gross simplification that is stating that the reason for aspiration towards unity is solely based on the fact that we're one island, that's been done to death.

gormdubhgorm

downcow wrote: »

You just can’t hide your hatred for my culture.
Would you apply the same desire to cancelled st pats parades, fleadhs, etc. I guess not

St Patrick was a Welshman a Brit. Most famous 'honorary Irishman' after St Jack. Plus a crowd of mostly protestant English born players went to visit the Pope in Rome back in 1990! Again close cultural ties between both countries is shown here.

Personally I don't have much time for all that religion guff.It is just people looking for something to cling on to. Looking for a 'badge' and safety net of sorts.

If you look at it what is the rate of regular mass going in NI or the ROI? Most don't bother in the ROI anyway. I think the lack of real interest in religion these days is just another thing both Britain and the ROI have in common.

As for the Orange marches I don't think they are a good thing. If people don't like them ignore them. However, Catholics can hardly claim the moral high ground when it comes treatment of those from another religion.
You only have to look up the ancient Order of Hibernians

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/make-way-for-the-molly-maguires-the-ancient-order-of-hibernians-and-the-irish-parliamentary-party-1902-14/

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:83jfzeTk9hkJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ancient-order-must-adapt-or-disappear-1.176810+&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

or Ne Temere decree from the catholic church in 1907

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dekHulEiCpIJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/research-finds-protestant-obsession-with-ne-temere-1.120625+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

And of course the 'Baptism Barrier' in ROI schools which created hassle for second generation Irish kids who might not be of the Catholic faith. Only was removed in 2019!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/baptism-barrier-to-catholic-schools-to-go-next-year-1.3488198

I find anyone who crows about thier religion is always looking for trouble. It is yet another reason why I do not want all that crap brought into a UI if at all possible.
But the reality is if Catholics and Protestants were real Christians (in truest sense) they would not use thier versions of Christianity as an excuse for a row.

TLDR: Ireland is full of hypocrisy over religion (Catholics and Protestants), people who rarely practice it yet some use it as badge. Plus Nordies are particular headbangers when it comes to religion. If thier is ever a UI or Ireland rejoins the commonwealth. I hope there is a separation of church and state as Ireland is now a more secular homogeneous society.

RobMc59

munsterlegend wrote: »

The smart thing to do would be allow no one in from Scotland England and Wales as it’s clear particularly in England the virus is not being controlled. Of course it also affects us as Dublin is the main airport on the island and Belfast airport Set up is a disaster by all accounts,

The numbers in the south and north are very similar so not exactly where you are getting your data from. The R figure is subject to change and were bound to increase after easing restrictions.

That's probably the right way although I did think Ireland aren't being particularly diplomatic about the way they are getting the message across. There are eyebrows being raised apparently in the US regarding Ireland's brusque attitude towards US travellers ,it might not be forgotten when Ireland is trying to wheedle backing from Irish americans.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You're over analysing my use of the word country there, Downcow....you're particularly stretching it to specify, 'UN recognised countries'.

I'll clarify that I am not suggesting that a community needs to be a country (UN recognised or otherwise) to be entitled to self determination. I was really just using country as shorthand, a bit cart-before-the-horse on my part, and perhaps I should've taken the time to make it clearer.

The Basque question is an interesting one. Naturally I would lean towards suggesting the Basque people should have that right, but having never lived in the region, I'd be reluctant to commit too heavily one way or another, as I don't have the direct cultural exposure to appreciate the intricacies of either side of that argument.

You say that some think that being surrounded by a large body of water means that area and that area only should be entitled to self determination.....I think you're being facetious there.

The GFA specifically gives a smaller part of that land mass surrounded by a body of water the right to self determination. The vast majority of criticism of the GFA on this thread hasn't come from the Republican side of things.....so can you clarify where the people who think this are?

I agree with most of what you are saying except I think you are being a little economical with the facts to not admit that most republicans on here believe that the whole island should self-determine based on the big bit of water around it

munsterlegend wrote: »

Only in the north could you have a public holiday to show how much you hate your neighbour. People cheering and clapping around bonfires with KAT and flags and effigies.

Oh dear!
Only on republicans could refuse to even say the name of the country they were referring (unless of course you were including the behaviour of those Donegal yahoos)

The public holiday is for the 12th. I have never ever seen any of the behaviour you are talking anoint on the 12th

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Imagine it took a pandemic to achieve this simple expectation of a normal society...that people would go about their business without causing civil unrest and strife.

Maybe the Orange brethren will finally realise the world doesn't end if you don't get to march.

Next year maybe Unionist and Loyalist leaders will tackle the ongoing problems relating to 11th night bonfires.

You just can’t hide your hatred for my culture.
Would you apply the same desire to cancelled st pats parades, fleadhs, etc. I guess not

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40017380.html

munsterlegend wrote: »

The smart thing to do would be allow no one in from Scotland England and Wales as it’s clear particularly in England the virus is not being controlled. Of course it also affects us as Dublin is the main airport on the island and Belfast airport Set up is a disaster by all accounts,

The numbers in the south and north are very similar so not exactly where you are getting your data from. The R figure is subject to change and were bound to increase after easing restrictions.

Looking like the two countries that got the whole thing so wrong are not going to make our 'green' list.

Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney has said that the US will definitely not be on the green list of countries to which it is deemed safe to travel while the UK is unlikely to be on the list.

The list is being compiled on the basis of epidemiological data, he told Newstalk’s Pat Kenny show.

“Just to explain how we're going to calculate the threshold which will determine whether a country is on the green list or not. This is not on the basis of politics, it's on the basis of epidemiological data and numbers so that we can compare Ireland with other countries and then we can put countries on a green list that we regard as representing no higher risk than Ireland represents.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Thanks fion I appreciate your attempt to answer the question.
You do throw the word country in. Is that a suggestion that communities need to be UN recognised countries to be entitled to SD. Where does that leave Basqe etc.
I don’t have a clear answer either. But some in here think that if an area is surrounded by a large water mass then that is the area and only area is allowed SD

You're over analysing my use of the word country there, Downcow....you're particularly stretching it to specify, 'UN recognised countries'.

I'll clarify that I am not suggesting that a community needs to be a country (UN recognised or otherwise) to be entitled to self determination. I was really just using country as shorthand, a bit cart-before-the-horse on my part, and perhaps I should've taken the time to make it clearer.

The Basque question is an interesting one. Naturally I would lean towards suggesting the Basque people should have that right, but having never lived in the region, I'd be reluctant to commit too heavily one way or another, as I don't have the direct cultural exposure to appreciate the intricacies of either side of that argument.

You say that some think that being surrounded by a large body of water means that area and that area only should be entitled to self determination.....I think you're being facetious there.

The GFA specifically gives a smaller part of that land mass surrounded by a body of water the right to self determination. The vast majority of criticism of the GFA on this thread hasn't come from the Republican side of things.....so can you clarify where the people who think this are?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Imagine it took a pandemic to achieve this simple expectation of a normal society...that people would go about their business without causing civil unrest and strife.

Maybe the Orange brethren will finally realise the world does end if you don't get to march.

Next year maybe Unionist and Loyalist leaders will tackle the ongoing problems relating to 11th night bonfires.

Only in the north could you have a public holiday to show how much you hate your neighbour. People cheering and clapping around bonfires with KAT and flags and effigies.

downcow wrote: »

Apart from thousands breaking the rules led by our deputy first minister, there have been no significant issues in Belfast that I know of. We are currently well below the magical R1 thanks to all our support and help from the mainland

The smart thing to do would be allow no one in from Scotland England and Wales as it’s clear particularly in England the virus is not being controlled. Of course it also affects us as Dublin is the main airport on the island and Belfast airport Set up is a disaster by all accounts,

The numbers in the south and north are very similar so not exactly where you are getting your data from. The R figure is subject to change and were bound to increase after easing restrictions.

downcow wrote: »

I know you are very disappointed by the success of the twelfth. The behaviour was astoundingly good.
Normally half a million people party for two days.
This year we had every journalist and republican with phones at the ready to film and spin any issue.
I think they had to do with a couple of hundred people watching one parade on the Shankill. There were 250 parades and 1 minor issue. (And no rule makers in attendance)
Republicans had 1 funeral parade and 1 massive issue.

Imagine it took a pandemic to achieve this simple expectation of a normal society...that people would go about their business without causing civil unrest and strife.

Maybe the Orange brethren will finally realise the world doesn't end if you don't get to march.

Next year maybe Unionist and Loyalist leaders will tackle the ongoing problems relating to 11th night bonfires.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

But you cannot guarantee to be peaceful if one of it's main clauses comes into effect...self determination.

Whatever you mean by 'peaceful' is immaterial here. You will object if the constitutional status of 'your wee country' (more Unionist supremacy talk...'your') is changed by agreement of the majority.

I will completely accept the referendum whatever direction it goes, but I will do all I can (reasonably peacefully) to maintain OWC

munsterlegend wrote: »

I don’t know what planet you occupy Rob but the worst country affected in Europe has been England.

There has been no mass gatherings in the republic to compare with the 12th or did you miss those videos circulating? How convenient. Cases here are very low with 21 yesterday and 16 up north which relatively means we had far less. given we live on a border less island it’s a waste of time breaking down figures anyway as for disease purposes it has to be treated as one despite two Separate decision making executives.

Of course you can give your opinion rob but let’s face it the danger to this island is the British govt who have been ineffective in tackling this disease. Liverpool has been very badly hit as you well know.

I know you are very disappointed by the success of the twelfth. The behaviour was astoundingly good.
Normally half a million people party for two days.
This year we had every journalist and republican with phones at the ready to film and spin any issue.
I think they had to do with a couple of hundred people watching one parade on the Shankill. There were 250 parades and 1 minor issue. (And no rule makers in attendance)
Republicans had 1 funeral parade and 1 massive issue.

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely I agree with it.

But you cannot guarantee to be peaceful if one of it's main clauses comes into effect...self determination.

Whatever you mean by 'peaceful' is immaterial here. You will object if the constitutional status of 'your wee country' (more Unionist supremacy talk...'your') is changed by agreement of the majority.

munsterlegend wrote: »

And there has been no issues in Belfast or did you selectively miss that as usual ? The big danger to this island from Covid is the inept Westminster government. More than 1500 people have died in Liverpool region alone so it’s a bit rich you coming on here preaching.

Apart from thousands breaking the rules led by our deputy first minister, there have been no significant issues in Belfast that I know of. We are currently well below the magical R1 thanks to all our support and help from the mainland

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I think it's a pretty difficult question to answer Downcow. Not because I'm, 'afraid to go there's, but rather it's too complex a question to give a one-post blanket rule that applies worldwide. My knowledge of law certainly isn't strong enough to be able to answer that for every country in the world.

So while I can't give you a, 'minimum requirement' for self determination, the best I can offer is the ideal case - when all parties involved agree to it.

That's a pretty high bar to set though, and I'm sure there are examples that could be given where I'd agree that self determination should be a right where all involved don't agree with it. Happy to answer any specific examples where I can consider the context though.

Thanks fion I appreciate your attempt to answer the question.
You do throw the word country in. Is that a suggestion that communities need to be UN recognised countries to be entitled to SD. Where does that leave Basqe etc.
I don’t have a clear answer either. But some in here think that if an area is surrounded by a large water mass then that is the area and only area is allowed SD