How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

downcow wrote: »

Francie that is pure nonsense you are writing.
If I said that I couldn't guarantee that I will break the speed limit tonight, it absolutely does not mean that I will break the speed limit tonight.

Just nonsense

Do you think we are stupid enough to buy this. The continuing backing away from something you said but regret saying. The analogy above is not similar to what you said because you omitted the word 'not' above.
If you said
'I couldn't guarantee that I will not break the speed limit tonight' I know what that means, in the same way I know what 'I couldn't guarantee not to remain peaceful' means

downcow wrote: »

Francie are you really struggling with the question. The question is not specific to Northern Ireland and what has been determined.
The question is a general question about self-determination. I guess my point is that these things are not as simple as you would like to make them.
But I will repeat the question one last time in the hope that you might have a go at answering it in general terms rather than trying to make political points.

So how would you decide the geographical area that should be allowed self determination and how would determine an area that should not be allowed to self determination?

It has been decided here what the area is.

I have no interest in elsewhere really. You tell us.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It has been decided here what the area is.

I have no interest in elsewhere really. You tell us.

I think actually we agree. There is no Devine right for the geographical area of the island of Ireland to be a self-determining unit any more than Rathlin, cypres, Trinidad, or the American continent. It’s complicated and there is no manual for it.

You say I should suggest.
Well the best I can think of is if a unit has existed for a long time, maybe 100 years and the majority want self-determination, then that would be my best stab.

Would you reckon that’s a reasonable justification?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Same old Republican tactic of completely avoiding the question. Let me remind you what the question was and then you can reflect on whether your answer has anything to do with the question.
So how would you decide the geographical area that should be allowed self determination and what would determine an area that should not be allowed to self determination?

Let's unite first yeah?

Then you set up your campaign.

Don't expect an answer from Nationalists to let you know what you can do to repartition the country. Why the hell would you expect us to answer such a question?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

I think actually we agree. There is no Devine right for the geographical area of the island of Ireland to be a self-determining unit any more than Rathlin, cypres, Trinidad, or the American continent. It’s complicated and there is no manual for it.

You say I should suggest.
Well the best I can think of is if a unit has existed for a long time, maybe 100 years and the majority want self-determination, then that would be my best stab.

Would you reckon that’s a reasonable justification?

Is there a movement for the northern statelet as it exists to become independent?

Why would Nationalists agree to join you in that bat**** crusade when they have the GFA which outlines a road to their ultimate aspiration?

downcow wrote: »

I think actually we agree. There is no Devine right for the geographical area of the island of Ireland to be a self-determining unit any more than Rathlin, cypres, Trinidad, or the American continent. It’s complicated and there is no manual for it.

You say I should suggest.
Well the best I can think of is if a unit has existed for a long time, maybe 100 years and the majority want self-determination, then that would be my best stab.

Would you reckon that’s a reasonable justification?

Who is Devine?

There is a hard fought International Agreement between two sovereign entities that all but one or two political parties have endorsed and a majority of the electorate have also endorsed to hold a border poll which will decide if the island of Ireland should unite.

I am not aware of any other agreements entered into for polls on street or county self determination.

UDAWINNER

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If it is economically viable, if it is practical, if it is workable. With Britain being out of the EU now it has made the idea of Unionist micro-cantons utterly ridiculous.

Don't worry DC in a United Ireland nobody is going to stop you from painting your kerbs, wearing union flag underpants, or marching around every summer.

they can f off to scotland to do that, no more burning the irish flag

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've given up with Fionn,first time in two years I have had to press the ignore button.

Obvious cop out is obvious. I very clearly stated my position, asked for clarification and said I would apologise if you provided that clarification and I was mistaken. I think we all know your intention was blatantly obvious, your refusal to clarify when asked by me or another poster makes it quite clear, so work away Rob. Your words stand for themselves, sure they could just leave their homes if they want to live in Ireland.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Same old Republican tactic of completely avoiding the question. Let me remind you what the question was and then you can reflect on whether your answer has anything to do with the question.
So how would you decide the geographical area that should be allowed self determination and what would determine an area that should not be allowed to self determination?

I didn't ignore your question Downcow, I pointed out that your question has already been answered. A majority on both parts of this island and in Britain have decided the geographical area that should be allowed self determination.

I'd say that's pretty robust, and a bit more sensible than your plan to create a new Northern Ireland that consists of zero cities and a few spots in Down and Antrim.....I'm sure you'd still call that 1.8 counties Ulster though, pal.

A phrase my father used to say when I was a child springs to mind when I reply to an awful lot of your hypotheticals. 'Ask a stupid question, expect a stupid answer'. Strawman piled on victim complex doesn't become you. When you drop the siloed mentality and try and have reasonable discourse, you engage in much better conversation, Downcow.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who is Devine?

There is a hard fought International Agreement between two sovereign entities that all but one or two political parties have endorsed and a majority of the electorate have also endorsed to hold a border poll which will decide if the island of Ireland should unite.

I am not aware of any other agreements entered into for polls on street or county self determination.

Francie you continue to not answer the question because you know as well as the rest of us that this idea that this island has some Devine right to regard itself as a country is just nonsense and has no rationale

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I didn't ignore your question Downcow, I pointed out that your question has already been answered. A majority on both parts of this island and in Britain have decided the geographical area that should be allowed self determination.

I'd say that's pretty robust, and a bit more sensible than your plan to create a new Northern Ireland that consists of zero cities and a few spots in Down and Antrim.....I'm sure you'd still call that 1.8 counties Ulster though, pal.

A phrase my father used to say when I was a child springs to mind when I reply to an awful lot of your hypotheticals. 'Ask a stupid question, expect a stupid answer'. Strawman piled on victim complex doesn't become you. When you drop the siloed mentality and try and have reasonable discourse, you engage in much better conversation, Downcow.

The question was about the right to self determination worldwide and you are afraid to go there

There was a lot of screaming on here about closing the Irish Sea and references to the incompetence of decision makers when uk was struggling with covid. I don’t here much now when ROI is the risk to the rest of us.
....and I like consistency so I won’t be calling to close the border between ni and roi The british isles are in this together and we need to support each other an I think uk should do anything we can to help ROI as the ROI R number escalates - it could be us tomorrow

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

There was a lot of screaming on here about closing the Irish Sea and references to the incompetence of decision makers when uk was struggling with covid. I don’t here much now when ROI is the risk to the rest of us.
....and I like consistency so I won’t be calling to close the border between ni and roi The british isles are in this together and we need to support each other an I think uk should do anything we can to help ROI as the ROI R number escalates - it could be us tomorrow

Especially when we see how irresponsible they're behaving round Dublin etc,no social distancing or masks,it must be very worrying for you especially as NI has managed the situation so well.

downcow wrote: »

Francie you continue to not answer the question because you know as well as the rest of us that this idea that this island has some Devine right to regard itself as a country is just nonsense and has no rationale

Permission has not been granted by Devine nor by divine right either.

The sad thing for you downcow is that the right to self determine has been agreed (above your heads as Unionists) between a sovereign Irish government and the British one in the GFA. The agreement you say you support but which the DUP detest.

Do you agree with the right to self determine contained in the GFA?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

The question was about the right to self determination worldwide and you are afraid to go there

I think it's a pretty difficult question to answer Downcow. Not because I'm, 'afraid to go there's, but rather it's too complex a question to give a one-post blanket rule that applies worldwide. My knowledge of law certainly isn't strong enough to be able to answer that for every country in the world.

So while I can't give you a, 'minimum requirement' for self determination, the best I can offer is the ideal case - when all parties involved agree to it.

That's a pretty high bar to set though, and I'm sure there are examples that could be given where I'd agree that self determination should be a right where all involved don't agree with it. Happy to answer any specific examples where I can consider the context though.

RobMc59 wrote: »

Especially when we see how irresponsible they're behaving round Dublin etc,no social distancing or masks,it must be very worrying for you especially as NI has managed the situation so well.

And there has been no issues in Belfast or did you selectively miss that as usual ? The big danger to this island from Covid is the inept Westminster government. More than 1500 people have died in Liverpool region alone so it’s a bit rich you coming on here preaching.

munsterlegend wrote: »

And there has been no issues in Belfast or did you selectively miss that as usual ? The big danger to this island from Covid is the inept Westminster government. More than 1500 people have died in Liverpool region alone so it’s a bit rich you coming on here preaching.

From the start downcow and Rob have been keen to turn the death and tragedy into a 'competition'. It is as sad to see as it is pathetic.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'll ask one last time, can you clarify what you meant when you said the residents of the Falls could just move if they wanted to live in Ireland then, Rob?

I won't bother asking again, if I'm mistaken on your intentions I'll happily apologise, if you refuse to clarify, I'd consider it quite telling and leave the topic at that.

Wasting your precious time Fionn. Anyway he just threw the toys out of the pram with the classic ignore post.

RobMc59

munsterlegend wrote: »

And there has been no issues in Belfast or did you selectively miss that as usual ? The big danger to this island from Covid is the inept Westminster government. More than 1500 people have died in Liverpool region alone so it’s a bit rich you coming on here preaching.

The devolved governments have set out their own stalls,tailored to the conditions unique to their area of the UK and have done really well, especially NI despite having to deal with the irresponsible shenanigans we are seeing in Ireland. This alone has caused dismay amongst the resident disgruntled republicans as it doesn't fit with the 'UK bad' scenario they have unsuccessfully attempted to cultivate.
Btw,I was replying to a post by Downcow who is worried about Ireland's R rate rising and its possible affect on NI.
Regarding me 'coming on here preaching',are you suggesting I can't comment or compare notes with Downcow,a fellow British person?

downcow wrote: »

There was a lot of screaming on here about closing the Irish Sea and references to the incompetence of decision makers when uk was struggling with covid. I don’t here much now when ROI is the risk to the rest of us.
....and I like consistency so I won’t be calling to close the border between ni and roi The british isles are in this together and we need to support each other an I think uk should do anything we can to help ROI as the ROI R number escalates - it could be us tomorrow

What are you on about? The north had 16 cases yesterday to our 21? Forget Britain, an all island approach is the only answer as every disease expert has stated.

RobMc59 wrote: »

The devolved governments have set out their own stalls,tailored to the conditions unique to their area of the UK and have done really well, especially NI despite having to deal with the irresponsible shenanigans we are seeing in Ireland. This alone has caused dismay amongst the resident disgruntled republicans as it doesn't fit with the 'UK bad' scenario they have unsuccessfully attempted to cultivate.
Btw,I was replying to a post by Downcow who is worried about Ireland's R rate rising and its possible affect on NI.
Regarding me 'coming on here preaching',are you suggesting I can't comment or compare notes with Downcow,a fellow British person?

I don’t know what planet you occupy Rob but the worst country affected in Europe has been England.

There has been no mass gatherings in the republic to compare with the 12th or did you miss those videos circulating? How convenient. Cases here are very low with 21 yesterday and 16 up north which relatively means we had far less. given we live on a border less island it’s a waste of time breaking down figures anyway as for disease purposes it has to be treated as one despite two Separate decision making executives.

Of course you can give your opinion rob but let’s face it the danger to this island is the British govt who have been ineffective in tackling this disease. Liverpool has been very badly hit as you well know.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Permission has not been granted by Devine nor by divine right either.

The sad thing for you downcow is that the right to self determine has been agreed (above your heads as Unionists) between a sovereign Irish government and the British one in the GFA. The agreement you say you support but which the DUP detest.

Do you agree with the right to self determine contained in the GFA?

Absolutely I agree with it. You must still be a bit devastated about it. That was never an issue for any unionist. The issues were around the release of serial killers etc.

.....anyhow fairly poor attempt at avoiding the real question again

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I think it's a pretty difficult question to answer Downcow. Not because I'm, 'afraid to go there's, but rather it's too complex a question to give a one-post blanket rule that applies worldwide. My knowledge of law certainly isn't strong enough to be able to answer that for every country in the world.

So while I can't give you a, 'minimum requirement' for self determination, the best I can offer is the ideal case - when all parties involved agree to it.

That's a pretty high bar to set though, and I'm sure there are examples that could be given where I'd agree that self determination should be a right where all involved don't agree with it. Happy to answer any specific examples where I can consider the context though.

Thanks fion I appreciate your attempt to answer the question.
You do throw the word country in. Is that a suggestion that communities need to be UN recognised countries to be entitled to SD. Where does that leave Basqe etc.
I don’t have a clear answer either. But some in here think that if an area is surrounded by a large water mass then that is the area and only area is allowed SD

munsterlegend wrote: »

And there has been no issues in Belfast or did you selectively miss that as usual ? The big danger to this island from Covid is the inept Westminster government. More than 1500 people have died in Liverpool region alone so it’s a bit rich you coming on here preaching.

Apart from thousands breaking the rules led by our deputy first minister, there have been no significant issues in Belfast that I know of. We are currently well below the magical R1 thanks to all our support and help from the mainland

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely I agree with it.

But you cannot guarantee to be peaceful if one of it's main clauses comes into effect...self determination.

Whatever you mean by 'peaceful' is immaterial here. You will object if the constitutional status of 'your wee country' (more Unionist supremacy talk...'your') is changed by agreement of the majority.

munsterlegend wrote: »

I don’t know what planet you occupy Rob but the worst country affected in Europe has been England.

There has been no mass gatherings in the republic to compare with the 12th or did you miss those videos circulating? How convenient. Cases here are very low with 21 yesterday and 16 up north which relatively means we had far less. given we live on a border less island it’s a waste of time breaking down figures anyway as for disease purposes it has to be treated as one despite two Separate decision making executives.

Of course you can give your opinion rob but let’s face it the danger to this island is the British govt who have been ineffective in tackling this disease. Liverpool has been very badly hit as you well know.

I know you are very disappointed by the success of the twelfth. The behaviour was astoundingly good.
Normally half a million people party for two days.
This year we had every journalist and republican with phones at the ready to film and spin any issue.
I think they had to do with a couple of hundred people watching one parade on the Shankill. There were 250 parades and 1 minor issue. (And no rule makers in attendance)
Republicans had 1 funeral parade and 1 massive issue.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

But you cannot guarantee to be peaceful if one of it's main clauses comes into effect...self determination.

Whatever you mean by 'peaceful' is immaterial here. You will object if the constitutional status of 'your wee country' (more Unionist supremacy talk...'your') is changed by agreement of the majority.

I will completely accept the referendum whatever direction it goes, but I will do all I can (reasonably peacefully) to maintain OWC

downcow wrote: »

I know you are very disappointed by the success of the twelfth. The behaviour was astoundingly good.
Normally half a million people party for two days.
This year we had every journalist and republican with phones at the ready to film and spin any issue.
I think they had to do with a couple of hundred people watching one parade on the Shankill. There were 250 parades and 1 minor issue. (And no rule makers in attendance)
Republicans had 1 funeral parade and 1 massive issue.

Imagine it took a pandemic to achieve this simple expectation of a normal society...that people would go about their business without causing civil unrest and strife.

Maybe the Orange brethren will finally realise the world doesn't end if you don't get to march.

Next year maybe Unionist and Loyalist leaders will tackle the ongoing problems relating to 11th night bonfires.

downcow wrote: »

Apart from thousands breaking the rules led by our deputy first minister, there have been no significant issues in Belfast that I know of. We are currently well below the magical R1 thanks to all our support and help from the mainland

The smart thing to do would be allow no one in from Scotland England and Wales as it’s clear particularly in England the virus is not being controlled. Of course it also affects us as Dublin is the main airport on the island and Belfast airport Set up is a disaster by all accounts,

The numbers in the south and north are very similar so not exactly where you are getting your data from. The R figure is subject to change and were bound to increase after easing restrictions.