morphy87 wrote: » And finally two last questions, what will the weight limit be and when are they hoping to have this scheme in place? My cattle do mostly be contenital from British fresian cows usually around 400kegs deadweight
Bass Reeves wrote: » If you can source stores that qualify. It will be relatively easy to source them as weanlings all calves up to 9 ymontgs quality. However when over 9 months it dependent on farm being in the scheme and calf being in a QA grass farm from 9 months. Unless bonus is substantial as in the 30c+/kg range it will be hard to get store producers to opt for QA as benefits may not be visible. However if bonus was 33c/kg a 330 kg carcasse would be worth hundred euro more so that would give 50euro to store man and finisher. But remember carcass weight will be lighter and animal may be harder to flesh
morphy87 wrote: » So for say my system, I buy in 18 months stores around September October, put in the shed mid November and then back to grass late March early April and then fatten off the grass in September, going by what you’re saying what is been proposed should benefit my system?
Bass Reeves wrote: » There are a few issues with it. First cattle have to be on s QA farm from 9 months. If age.ndiet gas to be 90%grass on a fresh weight basis. After that it depends on the bonus. However it will eliminate tanglers a bit more. Unless he is QA any cattle from him will not qualify for bonus. The other question is will this bonus be able to be topped up by the AA or HE schemes. Bonus would want to be fairly decent to allow for a QA farm from 9 months. Larger feedlots will be excluded as grass silage will be required as a main source in the diet. It may also elimate lads finishing on 70-100 day high ration diets. But bonus would need to be 30-50c/kg to really be worth it along with AA and HE top up for these cattle types. I imagine weight limits will be a factor as well. We will need to see more fine details to get an idea of it. One thing to note will the under nine month animal be a way to force dairy farmers to carry calves to weanlings or outsource it to prevent Bobby calves
Cavanjack wrote: » I’d say it will be a case of you will have more rules and specs to comply with or you will get docked money rather than comply with more rules and get paid more for your cattle. I see the Ifa are saying under 16 month bulls should get on the grass produced list. This is after spending one year grazing. No mention of under 24 month bulls being on the list after 2 summers grazing.
morphy87 wrote: » Off topic, but what do you know about this new grass based scheme? Just a few questions that you might be able to answer? If you comply with the criteria will you get a bonus or top up when selling factory cattle? If so how much are they taking and when do they hope to have this scheme in place?
Bass Reeves wrote: » You did not tell me I was fooling myself. Yes fixed costs are different on every farm. However I bought this farm in the early noughties. It was a learning curve. However some lads become obsessed with fixed costs and they get exaggerated. In beef farming you have to look at every cost and see is it justified. That is not to mean you have to be running around the place with pallets and a bit of baling twine. I am semi retired now so the RAV was the choice of vehicle I bought for myself,it's 2010. But I looked at different options. Other half drives an IX 35 now they both are on the books. However I see lads driving LC and Hiluxes doing high mileage and saying they are loosing money. They have no more stock than I have. It like the lad in the pub with three pints in his hands complaining about the cost of living in Ireland and he cannot afford to live here. I am not saying everything is rosy but you have to be efficient and work with the system as well to make money. But a 100 acre+ farm if set up right could be a part-time gig now. I have gone into such farms, the lad is running a Hilux taking the kids to school as the missus is working and he is messing around with a few suckler's and tangling on the side or doing a bit of contracting. He could have a tractor, slurry tank and maybe a baler and wrapper but the farm is not fenced internally.
DBK1 wrote: » I hope you didn’t take me up wrong, I definitely don’t think you are fooling yourself. Much the opposite really, if you can get your costs down to that I admire your efficiency. Like Anto said earlier, I’m not here that long either and I’ve also figured out that you’re generally on the ball with your figures. The point I was making was that the majority of beef farmers would not be meeting that standard of efficiency so for anyone reading this and thinking about their own costs I’d be reasonably confident they would get it hard to match yours. It was a brave move building a shed to that value and obviously it was a move that payed off but not a lot of lads would have done that so lads putting up smaller bits of sheds every couple of years would have more costs to consider. You also said you got to write it off at the higher rate of tax so I’m assuming you have (or at least had at that time) a reasonably well paying off farm job. That in effect subsidised your farm as it was the tax paid from your job that made it possible to write off at the high rate. Any full time farmers or lads with lower paying off farm jobs wouldn’t have this advantage. I agree with your point about the jeep as well, I don’t have a big land cruiser myself either. If the Rav is a lifestyle choice then absolutely go for it. But for someone without an off farm job the farm has to pay for that choice so it is a cost to be considered. I supposed my main point is fixed costs will be different on every farm and it’s up to everyone to know their own but for anyone that thinks your costs are high then i don’t think they understand what their costs are and they are definitely fooling themselves.
Bass Reeves wrote: » I give you examples of fixed costs in farming. In the late noughties under the enviormental I build a shed it cost approx 123K, I claimed back about the vat it came to about 16.5K, I then got the grant of about 65K on top of it. In the end the shed cost 43K which I wrote off against tax at the high rate. Now that is totally written off how do I add it in as a fixed cost. If you factor in the lifetime of an average shed is 40 years how do I cost it. If I sell 60 cattle /year that about 2.5K cattle over forty years that is 17 euro/head of a fixed cost. I could go through my accounts for you but I prefer no to In the world of accountancy what is an expense and what is not. I am not driving a Land Cruiser, yes I have a RAV but that is as much a lifestyle choice as a work vehicle. Last year I have over 6K in depreciation and motor running expenses going through the books agri diesel was 300 euro, wages were 9K including fees. Ya I am depreciating a bit of machinery. I do not feed meal for the winter I feed silage and min's only. Last year I got caught with some cattle late in the year and finished about 20+ out of the shed average ration over 59 cattle was about 3.5K, actually my fert and lime was 35 euro....It had gone into the 2018 accounts, I buy 4 ton of 18-6-12, 4.5 Ton Urea, 2 Ton of CAN. Actually when I look at my direct expenses on the account last year it works out at about 190/head if I add in the fertlizer it will add about 60/head to the figures. Over the last 3-4 years I have bought the ration bill on the farm back from hitting 10K to last years 3.5K. Now in 2019 I did not get all my stock through in the calendar year about 6 cattle went into the 2020 accounts but my sales hit 68K that added another 8K to that figure. I had my SFP on top of it. Purchases were about 40K(I have 10 extra stores this year. So ya I am fooling myself
DBK1 wrote: » I won’t dispute your costs Bass if you have them worked out at that but you seem to be running a fairly efficient system and one that I would imagine 90% of farmers wouldn’t be matching. So for lads that think their costs are lower than that, they either don’t understand what their costs are or they don’t want to know them as they will then know they are losing money! I’d say the costs you’re quoting are the very best any beef farmer can aim for. There’s also nothing included for any once off costs like say purchase, running costs and maintenance of a jeep/van, reseeding, fencing, shed or yard maintenance, a load of concrete every now and then, changing a tractor etc. Start adding a small amount for all them items and that’s when the true costs for lads stack up. Then there’s the most important one of all, your time!! For any farmer try to even pay yourself at minimum wage for the hours you spend on the farm and that’s when, if looked at through an accountants eye’s, they will just ask you why!?
wrangler wrote: » I have been warning Bass about ignoring fixed costs for a while now. :cool:
Jjameson wrote: » 2.00 indoors minimum. Unless you want to loan your facilities for free.
memorystick wrote: » I’ll do it ov a wet day but winter cost seems high. Only 4 bales each here. 4 ton of 18 6 12 over 27 acres for grazing.
Robson99 wrote: » He is fairly on the ball. I can't see anywhere that he is high on. Maybe you could highlight a few areas and educate us a bit but my figures would be fairly similar to that
memorystick wrote: » You’ve mad high costs.
Water John wrote: » Bit of a paradox when the organic market doesn't care about a 30 month limit. As the Minister has said, the 30 month had nothing to do with them, this was dreamed up between other parties. Don't want to upset some posters here.
wrangler wrote: » +1 the guys doing Contract rearing are claiming that they need 1.20+/day average over the year, so 1.50 indoors and €1.00 outdoors.
DBK1 wrote: » They are definitely the costs associated with keeping cattle for a year and if anything the wintering cost is too low. Bass I don’t know what size stock you keep for the winter but any animal around the 450 to 500 kilos will cost more than €1 a day to keep from my experience. Even with feeding no ration they’ll still cost €1.20 to €1.30 a day and the problem with feeding no ration is their growth will be very poor for that cost.
Bass Reeves wrote: » I cost it as follow's per head Transport, slaughter and Mart fees 35 euro Grass 100 euro wintering ( last year 145 days extra long and some low DM silage) 140 euro Vet, medicines, mortality 25 euro ration 40/head misc 35 euro. That is tipping near the 375/head. I probably being a bit harsh on my costs in 1-2 places but I would need to average 600/head gross margin this year to net 200/head. Last winter cost me 30-40/head extra in feeding costs due to length and low dry matter silage.Grass costs at 100/head is nearly 7K for grass costs this year( silage is covered in wintering costs 8.7K for total fertlizer will be in the 4K total mark and slurry about 1800 euro, silage making costs, bought in some and etc shy of 4.5K) so probably a bit more there than I think but I will struggle to average 600/head gross margin. Real killer will be replacements are looking to be 100 more expensive than last year at present
memorystick wrote: » There were some great Fr but its the Holstein blood that makes them hard to finish. They throve really well. May was a tough month on grass. I bought a cheap batch of mixed cattle and they worked out. I sell a good bite of surplus grass which is zero grazed and get lambs to graze in winter. Tis very challenging to count every penny cost wise but I think it’s ok.
memorystick wrote: » Cattle killed. 1/3 were Ps and 2/3 Os. Mostly fat score 3 and 2. Averaged €1093 after stoppages. Ate under 1/2 ton each of meal. Cost €550 in March 2019. Did ok I think.
Bass Reeves wrote: » I be disappointed after feeding 500kgs/head if I had many FS2. At 550/head last spring they must have been a fairly decent weight when buying 300kgs???. I think you said they went in at 3.5 flat. Average weight 315 kgs so 640/650kgs LW at slaughter. 470 days on farm would give 0.67kgs gain LW/day. Grass is the key with Friesians. I gave up trying to kill in large numbers a few years ago I trickle them out in 3's and 4's and maybe 6-8 at the time. Really struggling to fact cover on them this year, they have taken another growing spurt over the last 4-6 weeks even the f@@kers on ration. I have 6 Ch in with them and they are flying it but still only FS 3ish's. A lot of the Fr are only FS 2+ but will pill 3-4 next week and a few the following week. 3 went last week. Could do with pulling the Ch's but they have too much left in them. On the other hand 670grams/day is better than an AA would do. I have a belted Galloway in the finishing bunch on ration for 8 weeks just trudleing along gobbling meal but not finishing. Since mid May everything seems to be growing and not finishing.
