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Child Item

If Ireland gets to keep the €13 billion Apple money tomorrow

Atlantic Dawn

So tomorrow the General Court of the European Union will decide whether Ireland is owed €13 billion in tax from Apple.

I prupose that everyone in the country is given a €2500 voucher to spend on Apple tat to lighten the blow on the company and promote technology in the country.

Any other ideas on what to blow the money on?

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L1011

antodeco wrote: »

Can we not just stick this in an a high interest account and get a few more Bob from it?

High interest accounts don't exist anymore. It costs you money to deposit that volume of cash. And indeed that's what's happening - its losing a few million a year.

[Deleted User]

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Even though we were never really going to get much, I kinda wish the Government win on appeal.

Otherwise we're going to keep hearing for decades about how the Government gave away 13 billion euro of our money.

The Shell2Sea of our days.

The government did win, they are not appealing it its the EU.

sydthebeat

delighted with that result

topper75

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Excellent news

For now, yeah.

murpho999

L1011 wrote: »

High interest accounts don't exist anymore. It costs you money to deposit that volume of cash. And indeed that's what's happening - its losing a few million a year.

There was €1bn interest going on top of the €13bn.

[Deleted User]

murpho999 wrote: »

There was €1bn interest going on top of the €13bn.

That was interest Apple would have had to pay on the tax owed.

seamus

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Even though we were never really going to get much, I kinda wish the Government win on appeal.

Otherwise we're going to keep hearing for decades about how the Government gave away 13 billion euro of our money.

The Shell2Sea of our days.

Somewhere, Paul Murphy is picking up a megaphone.

I kinda wish the Government had lost and we got a big chunk of money, because we could use it right now.

I am glad though it's gone this way. I said it way back at the start of all of this, that it's the State's perogative to defend its own laws, and according to Irish law, the correct amount of tax was charged. The EU commission winning this case, would have had wider implications for the right of members states to determine their own tax regimes.

Now we know that Apple doesn't (and never did) owe the state €13bn. But like you say this won't stop the usual suspects banging on about it for two decades. Their argument will be that they "got away with it" on some technicality, when the reality is that the money was never owed in the first place, and the EU commission erred in bringing this challenge.

L1011

murpho999 wrote: »

There was €1bn interest going on top of the €13bn.

That's the Revenue-defined interest on tax settlements.

It has lost money since being 'invested', because that's how things are these days.

[Deleted User]

murpho999 wrote: »

I don't think you get this case as the government has won and are not collecting the tax.

Of course, sorry my mind is still having difficulty with reflexively associating 13 billion with losing.

What I mean is I nearly hope the Government lose at the ECJ, so as to avoid the years of tormented howling.

Snickers Man

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Even though we were never really going to get much, I kinda wish the Government win on appeal.

Guys and girls,

We need to get our language right here. The Government HAS won. This is the outcome they wanted. THEY took the case, along with Apple.

I realise it's counter intuitive to say that the party that won (or at least one of the winning parties) is one that WON'T be getting $13bn odd as a windfall, but that's the way of it.

If there is an appeal to be made it will be by the EU Commission AGAINST the ruling the Irish government asked for.

Are we clear?

What the Government has won here is an assertion of the primacy of member states in setting their tax law. That's a big enough win, in my view, although I am all in favour of some form of concerted agreed action against mega rich (make that Giga rich, or even Tera rich) corporations treating small countries as "off shore" opportunities. Bring their dosh back on land and tax it equitably, I say. Although how to do that is a task beyond my limited ken.

I suspect it's also a "**** you" from Europe in general to the argument of the Brexiteers that the Commission has dictatorial powers over member states' fical policies. No it doesn't, it never did.

If you read any crowing in the pro Brexit press that the EU has shafted Ireland by ganging up on it to deprive it of income rightly owed by a promiscuous multinational, never forget that when the Commission made its initial ruling the likes of Ambrose Evans Pritchard in the Torygraph were denouncing the "Vatican like" diktats of Brussels overruling, or trying to overrule, the autonomous fiscal actions of plucky little countries like Ireland.

Can't have it both way, guys.

sydthebeat

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Of course, sorry my mind is still having difficulty with reflexively associating 13 billion with losing.
.

it shouldnt

it was never going to be our money anyway, even the EU commision reflected that in their decision

this is a victory for ireland in that our laws are justified and ours to control

Wanderer78

people must like paying more taxes, if theyre not paying them, you are!

[Deleted User]

Snickers Man wrote: »

Are we clear?

So we lost,..., did we loose?

sydthebeat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

people must like paying more taxes, if theyre not paying them, you are!

how simple a view....

apple paid their full 12.5% corporation tax as required.

When Ireland changed its tax laws in 2015, Apple made changes to its corporate structure to comply. Since then, all of Apple’s Irish operations have been conducted through Irish resident companies. Apple pays tax at Ireland’s statutory 12.5 percent.

https://www.apple.com/ie/newsroom/2017/11/the-facts-about-apple-tax-payments/

Snickers Man

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

So we lost,..., did we loose?

I refer you to the very lucid clarification made in this post by, er, yourself!

Wanderer78

sydthebeat wrote: »

how simple a view....

apple paid their full 12.5% corporation tax as required.

https://www.apple.com/ie/newsroom/2017/11/the-facts-about-apple-tax-payments/

its rare that mnc's pay the full 12.5%, its more commonly 10/11%, again, if theyre not paying it, you are

is_that_so

Not too surprised. It looked as it has done from the start like something of a vendetta against tech companies and God knows they've played fast and loose. Vindication for Apple and the government/Revenue. At the very least it might remind them of their tax obligations.

sydthebeat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its rare that mnc's pay the full 12.5%, its more commonly 10/11%, again, if theyre not paying it, you are

no. they pay 12.5%

if they can make back legal allowances on it, so be it... same rule for all in ireland

which is EXACTLY what the court said today, that apple didnt get any sweetheart deal

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its rare that mnc's pay the full 12.5%, its more commonly 10/11%, again, if theyre not paying it, you are

How much tax would you be paying if the MNC move out and the half the country is suddenly on the socail welfare?

The tax generated by these companies are the only reason Ireland is even anywhere close to recovered from the crash. Without them the place would be a ghost town

Its not just the people working for these companies, the farms supplying the canteens, the companies providing security and maintenance, gardeners etc

When Dell closed in Limerick it wasnt just the people in Dell who lost jobs, it was the entire community

Wanderer78

sydthebeat wrote: »

no. they pay 12.5%

if they can make back legal allowances on it, so be it... same rule for all in ireland

which is EXACTLY what the court said today, that apple didnt get any sweetheart deal

again, full 12.5 is rare, its generally 10/11. on another note, i worked for an mnc for a while, in its 40 years of operations here, it has never turned a profit, i ll let that sink in!

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How much tax would you be paying if the MNC move out and the half the country is suddenly on the socail welfare?

The tax generated by these companies are the only reason Ireland is even anywhere close to recovered from the crash. Without them the place would be a ghost town

Its not just the people working for these companies, the farms supplying the canteens, the companies providing security and maintenance, gardeners etc

When Dell closed in Limerick it wasnt just the people in Dell who lost jobs, it was the entire community

who said anything about them moving out, maybe change the way we accept it, maybe partially in stocks and shares, baring in mind, sme's are the largest employer in the state

[Deleted User]

is_that_so wrote: »

Not too surprised. It looked as it has done from the start like something of a vendetta against tech companies and God knows they've played fast and loose. Vindication for Apple and the government/Revenue. At the very least it might remind them of their tax obligations.

Just to be clear here, this is like the Scissor Sisters walking free from court: ourselves and Apple, we're like Linda and Charlotte.

This is a legal vindication, and while it's probably even true to say that Ireland's 1991 Tax Ruling did not amount to state aid, we absolutely did conspire with MNCs to avail of a lacuna in US Tax Law where they were allowed to be tax-resident in no jurisdiction. We just didn't do it on a selective basis which would have amounted to state aid.

The law is on our side, but lets not start doing moral victory laps. We were letting large multinationals avoid their tax obligations for years.

sydthebeat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, full 12.5 is rare, its generally 10/11. on another note, i worked for an mnc for a while, in its 40 years of operations here, it has never turned a profit, i ll let that sink in!

like i said, it may be able to claim back legal allowance, but so are all companies in ireland... the basic rate is paid... and allowances are claimed back.

whether that means they pay an effective rate of 10 / 11% or whatever is immaterial.... even the most basic individual in this country is allowed to do the same in their own tax circumstances.

Wanderer78

sydthebeat wrote: »

like i said, it may be able to claim back legal allowance, but so are all companies in ireland... the basic rate is paid... and allowances are claimed back.

whether that means they pay an effective rate of 10 / 11% or whatever is immaterial.... even the most basic individual in this country is allowed to do the same in their own tax circumstances.

again, since theyre not paying it, you are!

sydthebeat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, since theyre not paying it, you are!

if you claim back tax on tuition fees then you dont pay it..... i do....
if I claim back tax on dental fees then I dont pay it..... you do....

same principle ..... only on a different level.....

are you saying apple should have some special tax arrangement where they cannot avail of legal allowances??

i wonder where that viewpoint would bring us.

Wanderer78

sydthebeat wrote: »

if you claim back tax on tuition fees then you dont pay it..... i do....
if I claim back tax on dental fees then I dont pay it..... you do....

same principle ..... only on a different level.....

are you saying apple should have some special tax arrangement where they cannot avail of legal allowances??

i wonder where that viewpoint would bring us.

taxation is deeply imbalanced, its now at dangerous levels, if we continue on this path, it will more than likely lead to further destabilization politically, economically, socially and environmentally. the more plutocratic elements in society are walking away with the spoils of your labour, and the risks and requirement of taxation is landing on your lap, this is unsustainable, tax harmonization is probably required in the eu at this stage

Keyzer

Not a penny of that money will go to Revenue - it will be given back to Apple in some shape or form.

Necro

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, since theyre not paying it, you are!

Mod:

I think you've made your point Wanderer.

sydthebeat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

taxation is deeply imbalanced, its now at dangerous levels, if we continue on this path, it will more than likely lead to further destabilization politically, economically, socially and environmentally. the more plutocratic elements in society are walking away with the spoils of your labour, and the risks and requirement of taxation is landing on your lap, this is unsustainable, tax harmonization is probably required in the eu at this stage

ah so you have an ideological issue with the tax policy.

Personally i prefer the overwhelmingly financially positive input MNCs offer to the irish economy yearly. One in seven irish workers work for a MNC

MNC generate an income in the irish economy similar to that €13 billion ruling... ANNUALLY

Be wary that the grass is always greener yada yada ......

Shefwedfan

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Just to be clear here, this is like the Scissor Sisters walking free from court: ourselves and Apple, we're like Linda and Charlotte.

This is a legal vindication, and while it's probably even true to say that Ireland's 1991 Tax Ruling did not amount to state aid, we absolutely did conspire with MNCs to avail of a lacuna in US Tax Law where they were allowed to be tax-resident in no jurisdiction. We just didn't do it on a selective basis which would have amounted to state aid.

The law is on our side, but lets not start doing moral victory laps. We were letting large multinationals avoid their tax obligations for years.

All that is wrong with Europe is they didn't get in front of us. Every other country would have done the exact same and provided to the US companies as well if it meant mass employment.

Europe trying to play the high and mighty card is a load of poo. They have the hump that number 1 Ireland has so many MNC installed and number 2 it is Ireland, how can they be beating the bigger boys!!