Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Nobody wants to see the way remain idle. But rail pragmatists understand that there is no such thing as a temporary greenway operating under a revocable license.

"Nobody wants to see the way remain idle, except those who want to see the way remain idle if it is not going to be used for a train".

ezstreet5 wrote: »

The price tag for those projects exceeds 5 billion I believe. If it came in at 5.2 billion, no one would bat an eyelash, despite the fact that the "tiny" overbudget amount could have rebuilt the WRC.

With that same logic, why not go to €5.4 and run a parallel greenway.

serfboard wrote: »

Any of these projects will move multiple times the numbers of passengers and provide far better Value For Money, than a rail line north of Athenry.

A rail line may be built north of Athenry, but not for a few decades. For a tiny amount of money, a Greenway can be built on it in while we wait. Only the worst kind of dog in the manger would want to see it left idle in the meantime.

The price tag for those projects exceeds 5 billion I believe. If it came in at 5.2 billion, no one would bat an eyelash, despite the fact that the "tiny" overbudget amount could have rebuilt the WRC. Projects don't always advance in the order of value for money. There are regional and political considerations and different funding mechanisms.

Applying the same logic to greenways, one could argue that there are a myriad of other greenway projects that would warrant investment before a Western Rail Trail project and would provide better value for money, such as completion of the EV1 and EV2 routes.

Nobody wants to see the way remain idle. But rail pragmatists understand that there is no such thing as a temporary greenway operating under a revocable license. Conversion of the way to a full-fledged greenway is irreversible.

serfboard wrote: »

There's a list as long as your arm of rail money that needs to be spent, before anyone would begin to look at a WRC North.

Carawaystick wrote: »

There isn't really

There is really.

Double-tracking Portarlington to Athlone
Double-tracking Athenry to Galway
Line to Navan
Metrolink

And that's before we get into the DART expansion programme, which is absolutely massive and really does have a list as long as your arm:

Iarnrod Eireann wrote:

Maynooth - M3 Parkway Line and City Centre

The overall scope for the Maynooth Line and City Centre, to facilitate the necessary increase in capacity, will require:

•Track, platform and station modifications and improvements at Dublin Connolly Station and Docklands Station to increase through-running and terminating capacity
•Track and infrastructure modifications at key junction approaching Dublin Connolly and Docklands Station from north and west
•Bridge reconstructions arising from corridor widening and electrical clearances, as necessary
•Elimination of level crossings on the Maynooth Line and provision of appropriate road relief infrastructure
•Signalling and telecommunications infrastructure to support the projected capacity increases
•Electrification of Maynooth and M3 Parkway lines, and power supply to support the projected capacity increases
•Provision of a new DART Expansion rolling stock maintenance and stabling depot
•Integration of DART Expansion with the new MetroLink station at Glasnevin

Kildare Line

The overall scope for the Kildare Line, to facilitate the necessary increase in capacity, will require:

•Widening of the railway corridor and completing four tracking between Park West Station and Dublin Heuston
•Improvements to the Phoenix Park Tunnel Line to support the projected capacity increases
•Bridge reconstructions arising from corridor widening and electrical clearances, as necessary
•Signalling and telecommunications infrastructure to support the projected capacity increases
•Electrification and power supply from Hazelhatch to Dublin Heuston to support the projected capacity increases
•Provision of rolling stock stabling, as necessary

Northern Line

The overall scope for the Northern Line, to facilitate the necessary increase in capacity, will require:

•Signalling and telecommunications infrastructure to support the projected capacity increases
•Electrification and power supply from Malahide to Drogheda to support the projected capacity increases
•Bridge reconstructions arising from corridor widening and electrical clearances, as necessary
•Upgrade and modification of Drogheda and Fairview maintenance depots
•Provision of higher capacity turnback at Drogheda and Clongriffin
•Provision of rolling stock stabling, as necessary

Southside DART Line Improvement Works

The overall scope for the Southside Line, to facilitate the necessary increase in capacity, will require:

•Agreeing with the National Transport Authority and Local Authority the level crossing closure plan to support the projected capacity increases
•Provide an appropriate level of road relief infrastructure in-lieu of increased level crossing closure frequency
•Provision of a high capacity turnback at Dun Laoghaire or Bray
•Provision of rolling stock stabling, as necessary
•Integration of DART Expansion with MetroLink at Tara Street

Any of these projects will move multiple times the numbers of passengers and provide far better Value For Money, than a rail line north of Athenry.

A rail line may be built north of Athenry, but not for a few decades. For a tiny amount of money, a Greenway can be built on it in while we wait. Only the worst kind of dog in the manger would want to see it left idle in the meantime.

River Suir wrote: »

This ... perhaps shows the WOT campaign is cutting through in a way the Greenway campaign will never do.

Hilariously wrong.

The WOT managed to get WRC south developed at a time when money was being thrown about like snuff at a wake, with no VFM assessments carried out, and based on the most fanciful of notions of passenger numbers.

Those days are gone. The only thing WOT have done since is block the Greenway. That's it.

River Suir wrote: »

I would expect there to be no movement

Now, there's a true statement.

monument

westtip wrote: »

SF/WOT always gets a reaction. lovely jubbly, thanks for taking the bait. Hilarious. That is what this whole thread has become more and more ridiculous and more and more hilarious. Everyone can remain safe in their houses in Claremorris then so, no need to rush out and catch a train to stroke city.

Three day ban for that and you'll get longer the next time if that trolling doesn't stop. Stop the SF/WOT nonsense generally too.

-- moderator

westtip

SF/WOT always gets a reaction. lovely jubbly, thanks for taking the bait. Hilarious. That is what this whole thread has become more and more ridiculous and more and more hilarious. Everyone can remain safe in their houses in Claremorris then so, no need to rush out and catch a train to stroke city.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Sinn Féin and West on Track - the axis of evil standing in the way of the Quiet Man Greenway, according to a peculiar strain within that group. The former being a political party not (and never) in government that locally supports reactivation. The latter being a loose advocacy group of politicians of all flavours, community-level advocates, and lay persons that also support reactivation. The theory is that if these nefarious characters would cease and desist from their self-serving, backwards, nostalgic activities, the greenway would prevail. Conversely, WOT do not believe that if the Quiet Man Greenway advocacy group would disband, rail reactivation would occur. Neither option is simple, inexpensive, or easy. It is not the local "us versus them," or "vote rail/vote greenway" issue that some make it out to be.

A mainly true but largely onesided assessment, I'd say. I won't waste each other's time with a roundly similar view from the other side of the fence.

CatInABox

River Suir wrote: »

I do think St Francis of Assisi’s expression “you catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than a barrel full of vinegar” is quite apt.

Weirdly enough, flies are more attracted to vinegar than they are to honey, but that probably has little to do with trains, to be honest.

River Suir

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Sinn Féin and West on Track - the axis of evil standing in the way of the Quiet Man Greenway, according to a peculiar strain within that group. The former being a political party not (and never) in government that locally supports reactivation. The latter being a loose advocacy group of politicians of all flavours, community-level advocates, and lay persons that also support reactivation. The theory is that if these nefarious characters would cease and desist from their self-serving, backwards, nostalgic activities, the greenway would prevail. Conversely, WOT do not believe that if the Quiet Man Greenway advocacy group would disband, rail reactivation would occur. Neither option is simple, inexpensive, or easy. It is not the local "us versus them," or "vote rail/vote greenway" issue that some make it out to be.

Indeed. My politics are not SF, probably Social Democrat. This attempt by the Greenway Campaigners to brand all of us as SF is not only childish and stupid but perhaps shows the WOT campaign is cutting through in a way the Greenway campaign will never do. I am of that uniquely Irish religion “ lapsed Catholic” but I do think St Francis of Assisi’s expression “you catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than a barrel full of vinegar” is quite apt.

River Suir wrote: »

Who or what is SF/WOT or is that a made up name for trolling purposes?

Sinn Féin and West on Track - the axis of evil standing in the way of the Quiet Man Greenway, according to a peculiar strain within that group. The former being a political party not (and never) in government that locally supports reactivation. The latter being a loose advocacy group of politicians of all flavours, community-level advocates, and lay persons that also support reactivation. The theory is that if these nefarious characters would cease and desist from their self-serving, backwards, nostalgic activities, the greenway would prevail. Conversely, WOT do not believe that if the Quiet Man Greenway advocacy group would disband, rail reactivation would occur. Neither option is simple, inexpensive, or easy. It is not the local "us versus them," or "vote rail/vote greenway" issue that some make it out to be.

River Suir

westtip wrote: »

Ah so we can see the familiar pattern unfolding, Lord Ross and his sidekick have delayed the process for four years, in the meantime SF/WOT have continued on the TEN-T is going to be revised again lobbying like mad in Europe, TEN-T will come back with some ambiguous view about WRC and we will all have to wait another Five years until SF/WOT get in power, Kick the can until we can get hold of power then spend another 5 years unable to deliver, Ah so another ten years of nothing.

Who or what is SF/WOT or is that a made up name for trolling purposes?

Del.Monte

westtip wrote: »

Ah so we can see the familiar pattern unfolding, Lord Ross and his sidekick have delayed the process for four years, in the meantime SF/WOT have continued on the TEN-T is going to be revised again lobbying like mad in Europe, TEN-T will come back with some ambiguous view about WRC and we will all have to wait another Five years until SF/WOT get in power, Kick the can until we can get hold of power then spend another 5 years unable to deliver, Ah so another ten years of nothing.

Not at all, in ten years time the Kiltimagh Velo-rail will have reached Letterkenny.

westtip

River Suir wrote: »

I would expect there to be no movement until the Ten-T consultations are complete. And the report will no doubt be ready when its ready. You wouldn't pull a half baked loaf of bread out of the oven so to speak.

Ah so we can see the familiar pattern unfolding, Lord Ross and his sidekick have delayed the process for four years, in the meantime SF/WOT have continued on the TEN-T is going to be revised again lobbying like mad in Europe, TEN-T will come back with some ambiguous view about WRC and we will all have to wait another Five years until SF/WOT get in power, Kick the can until we can get hold of power then spend another 5 years unable to deliver, Ah so another ten years of nothing.

River Suir

Muckyboots wrote: »

Ciaran's question https://www.facebook.com/groups/213079802087801/permalink/3430912553637827/

The Minister could deflect until November when the Ten-T consultations are expected to be completed? God help us!

I would expect there to be no movement until the Ten-T consultations are complete. And the report will no doubt be ready when its ready. You wouldn't pull a half baked loaf of bread out of the oven so to speak.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

There was also the following related question asked by Sean Canney. I did not immediately spot any questions asked by Ciarán Cannon.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-07-07/110/?highlight%5B0%5D=ten&highlight%5B1%5D=t&highlight%5B2%5D=maps

Ciaran's question https://www.facebook.com/groups/213079802087801/permalink/3430912553637827/

The Minister could deflect until November when the Ten-T consultations are expected to be completed? God help us!

Muckyboots wrote: »

In all fairness, he'll want to read it carefully himself. He also has a right to seek specific clarifications from both the authors and Irish Rail. As soon as it's published he'll be pinned to the wall looking for his next move, so I think we'll be waiting a while.

There was also the following related question asked by Sean Canney. I did not immediately spot any questions asked by Ciarán Cannon.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-07-07/110/?highlight%5B0%5D=ten&highlight%5B1%5D=t&highlight%5B2%5D=maps

Muckyboots wrote: »

Both Ciaran Cannon and Marian Harkin have had written PQ's answered from the new lad - but no shmoke yet.

In all fairness, he'll want to read it carefully himself. He also has a right to seek specific clarifications from both the authors and Irish Rail. As soon as it's published he'll be pinned to the wall looking for his next move, so I think we'll be waiting a while.

blackwhite wrote: »

That's from a month ago, when the Minister for Stepaside was very clearly intent on passing the buck to the incoming Govt.

Both Ciaran Cannon and Marian Harkin have had written PQ's answered from the new lad - but no shmoke yet.

blackwhite wrote: »

That's from a month ago, when the Minister for Stepaside was very clearly intent on passing the buck to the incoming Govt.

Sorry, you are correct. There was a more recent question asked by Marian Harkin:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-06-30/664/?highlight%5B0%5D=rail&highlight%5B1%5D=western&highlight%5B2%5D=rail&highlight%5B3%5D=corridor#pq-answers-664

blackwhite

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Nothing new from the following PQ asked in the Dáil yesterday:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-06-09/583/?highlight%5B0%5D=western&highlight%5B1%5D=rail&highlight%5B2%5D=corridor

That's from a month ago, when the Minister for Stepaside was very clearly intent on passing the buck to the incoming Govt.

westtip wrote: »

Whatever happened to that rail report then? Just wondering.

Nothing new from the following PQ asked in the Dáil yesterday:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-06-09/583/?highlight%5B0%5D=western&highlight%5B1%5D=rail&highlight%5B2%5D=corridor

westtip

Whatever happened to that rail report then? Just wondering.

galwaytt

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Government funding is one thing but development partners as facilitated by Local Authorities in Galway has been focused on individuals driving rather than effective public transport.

Of course - motoring contributes €6.2Bn to the exchequer every year, and the LA's want their slice of it. It's all down to money.

That and they can make all the developers do the heavy lifting and funding: e.g making school projects include for road, footpath and public lighting upgrades to get there. And a school is a very civic amenity. Ditto for housing: make developers provide all the roads, services and public housing (at their expense) - LA's want all the benefits and none of the costs - and to do none of the work.

Pete_Cavan

Del.Monte wrote: »

I don't understand how Tuam has become the focus of this discussion as it is only an intermediate station on the route the same as Ballyglunin - bigger but an intermediate stop nonetheless. The route is Limerick/Claremorris with all that that entails e.g. onward connections to and from places like Westport, Castlebar and Ballina. The Western Rail Corridor not the Athenry/Tuam shuttle.

Phase 2 is from Athenry to Tuam, Phase 3 to Claremorris. If anything is to happen, it will be Phase 2, doing Phase 3 first and leaving a gap wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Those onward connects will be via interchange with other trains. There isn't capacity for services from WRC Phase 2/3 on the existing lines. This was my point, we need to invest in upgrading the existing network first. Spending €150m reopening Tuam - Claremorris to connect into at capacity single track lines is putting the cart before the horse. That money would be better spent on the existing network first.