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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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liamog

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I seriously hope one of the 50kWh units being removed for a 150kWh unit goes in above, and in locations similar to it.

It probably won't receive the leftover 50kW, the M1 service stations are probably going to be upgraded to 4 car hubs (2x150kW). The 8 car hubs will probably be deployed on roads where 1 station serves both carriageways.

slave1

To quote those brilliant group of lads liamog
Stop Making Sense

10-10-20

blue chuzzle wrote: »

AFAIK in the UK there are plenty of charging companies and for a lot of them you can pay a subscription (say, £8 a month) that gives you unlimited charging at their slow chargers which are all over the place.

i expect easygo will follow that model once they have enough chargers to support it and they seem to be expanding rapidly.

if there was a €10 fee a month for unlimited access to slow charging that would make much more sense - or if there were much lower night rates. With the amount of renewable electricity being generated, the wholesale cost for electricity at night must be basically 0.

not having a flat fee at a low rate or a extremely low night rate for slow charging is discriminatory against people without driveways.

The ESB are a joke when it comes to car charging planning and implementation.

It looks like that competition has just started.
I was looking at some chargepoints on openchargemap last week and at the time I noted that gocharge.ie (whom appear to specialise in captive-audience car-park charge-points) were charging 50c per kW unit, but have recently lowered the rate to a less-gougy 30c per kW.

In Wexford General Hospital's case, that was 50c for charging on top of the hospital parking rate of ~1.25/hr.
I'd want to be getting very good medical news all day at that rate.

eddhorse

50c and 30c is quite gougy alright

JPA

ELM327 wrote: »

That photo from Andybobandy above shows why people are mad if they are buying non Tesla EVs

A lot of mad people around so. Or people lacking the €€€...

liamog

JPA wrote: »

A lot of mad people around so. Or people lacking the €€€...

More likely people have bought cars that suit them for 355 days of the year, and are prepared to put up with the awkwardness of our rapid charging networks on those few days they need to.

zg3409

liamog wrote: »

More likely people have bought cars that suit them for 355 days of the year, and are prepared to put up with the awkwardness of our rapid charging networks on those few days they need to.

A lot of people bought new EVs not knowing about real range, queues at 50kW chargers and that the 22kW chargers typically only fill their car at 7kW. I did a good bit of research but many people buy cheap old EVs and are shocked at limited range and inadequate charging infrastructure between main cities.

I plan my Dublin Donegal trips via Monaghan where there is both easygo and esb 50kW chargers. Its going out of my way, but having two options is critical and twice the easygo charger did not work even when reset. The ESB 50kW charger there was busy with locals when it was free.

liamog

And yet bizarrely sales seem to be increasing, and the second hand market is not full of EVs from newly disappointed owners.
Since the fees for rapid charging were introduced, the queues at rapid chargers massively decreased. Nowadays the FB group is mostly full of people complaining about slow chargers being occupied by cars using them as destination chargers.
I suspect we'll see another drop off in demand come late August.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote:

No overstay as it doesnt make sense for destination charging.

It's not destination charging. It's slow charging, ESB call it standard charging. That's how it's called by everyone else and everywhere else, well bar Tesla and followers who take Tesla terminology too seriously. You're repeating the same mantra about "destination charging" all the time.

Explain to me rationally without using any mantras why it doesn't make sense if you've correctly confirmed AC charging is a business.

Let me pretend I own 2x 22 kW AC charger. I can sell 2*22*24 = 1056 kWh per day. I absolutely want the following to maximise profits:
A) no empty charger

no cars sitting and not charging

as many faster charging cars as possible

Optimally I'd want Teslas S and Zoes charging 22 kW all the time. Not PHEVs and Leafs charging 3 kW and/or cars plugged in while NOT charging.

Basically, it's about selling as many kWh in as shortest time as possible.

It's a business reality and some sort of time based pricing and/or overstay fee will come soon. Many large cities on the continent already have this in place.

creedp

liamog wrote: »

And yet bizarrely sales seem to be increasing, and the second hand market is not full of EVs from newly disappointed owners.
Since the fees for rapid charging were introduced, the queues at rapid chargers massively decreased. Nowadays the FB group is mostly full of people complaining about slow chargers being occupied by cars using them as destination chargers.
I suspect we'll see another drop off in demand come late August.

Hopefully so.. maybe those big luxury phevs will no longer hog the almost extinct of species .. the SCP. Nothing against phevs per se but it's so frustrating to arrive at an SCP to find a fully charged phev sitting there when all I need is a few kw to get me home

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

It's not destination charging. It's slow charging, ESB call it standard charging. That's how it's called by everyone else and everywhere else, well bar Tesla and followers who take Tesla terminology too seriously. You're repeating the same mantra about "destination charging" all the time.

The exact term is irrelevant, AC charging is intended as something you do whilst your car is not being used. That means parking up, plugging in, and going about your business. It does not mean leaving the cinema 2 hours into the movie because your car has finished charging. It does not mean moving the vehicle at 3am.
AC charging is a value add at a parking space, not a product itself.

DrPhilG

I've always hated the term destination charging.

I know that nobody can be expected to leave the cinema half way through a film or come out at 3am etc etc.

But that is using the rare occasion to justify the rest. Plugging in at a slow charger and coming back half a day later is a financially stupid way to use it once charges come in, and a selfish use while it was free.

My Leaf and now my i3 can fully charge on a 22kw post in about 3 hours. There is no sensible reason for it to be acceptable for me to leave it there for most of the day.

And before someone uses the train station excuse, you're right. Nobody is going to commute back to move their car and return to work. Which is why placing a single 22kw charger at a train station was just as thick as placing a rapid charger at a big Tesco.

When the standard use of a charger involves it being taken out of action by a non charging car for long periods, then its a stupid use of a charger.

DrPhilG

And what's just as bad, is that whilst it is seen at least as common etiquette to leave a phone number, a timer dial or a needtocharge disc showing when you leave your car on a rapid, it seems unheard of to do it at a slow charger.

Given that so many people see it as acceptable to block one indefinitely, why can't they ateast let others know?

KCross

The debates about AC and “it’s a destination charge point”, “no it’s not a destination charger“ etc are pointless really.

The charge points are whatever the operator decides they are. based on their charging model.

They will vary from free at a hotel, to leave it there as long as you like in an airport to 2hrs only on busy city street spots.

There is no one correct answer or use case for them.

ECars are keeping the overstay fee as a future possibility if they see abuse so it’s clear they want most of their 22kW charge points to have turnover not cars sitting on them for 12hrs+. That’s their right I suppose.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

The exact term is irrelevant, AC charging is intended as something you do whilst your car is not being used. That means parking up, plugging in, and going about your business. It does not mean leaving the cinema 2 hours into the movie because your car has finished charging. It does not mean moving the vehicle at 3am. AC charging is a value add at a parking space, not a product itself.

See my explanation of the business and think about it. As the operator I want maximise units taken and billed.

I think the point of contention is that you think it's an add on to parking, which I don't agree with.

Going about your business is fine but you'll be charged for it.

It's the reality in London, Paris, Berlin etc.

The "moving my vehicle at 3am" is argument ad absurdum and straw man really. Anyway, it can be fixed by lower night time rates.

McGiver

KCross wrote:

The charge points are whatever the operator decides they are. based on their charging model.

Exactly and any commercial operator which maintains a network such as Ecars, not operators with one-offs for customers such as hotels you mentioned, will want to maximise profits i.e. kWh taken and billed. You don't achieve that by per kWh billing AND no control of time spent at the charger AND no control of whether car is connected but not charging.

I can see Ecars wanting to prevent cars plugged but not charging for starters.

McGiver

Regarding the AC pricing, I agree with unkel that the taxpayer pays the Ecars adventure already and now they will also have additional profits on top. But I guess it's better than taxpayer subsidised free service which means private operators have no chance competing with it and won't even appear on the market. Now with the pricing in place private operators at least have a theoretical chance to compete with Ecars, even though it's unfair competition, Ecars is technically taxpayer funded monopoly and can set the pricing whatever they want regardless of costs (the taxpayer always pays).

While I welcome the AC pricing, I think it's not correct, the difference between the AC and the DC is too small, the ratio of AC to DC is too large, about 80%. I've had a look at a big operator in the Netherlands and their ratio is 55%, much higher DC rate mostly.

I think the price of AC, DC and UFC (150 kW+) should be a function of the speed, and this is the case in several countries already.

Something like 20c for AC, 37c for DC and 50c for UFC would make sense here.

I can also imagine lower night time pricing for AC to maximise units taken and support renewable energy as well as people with no driveway at home etc.

And finally, the state of course shouldn't build charging infrastructure at all and should focus on legislation, regulations and incentives for private operators to come up e.g. Mandate petrol stations, rest areas, car parks, malls, shopping centres and public buildings to install chargers and provide other incentives for private operators. Because we see the result when the state attempts to build the infrastructure instead - it's built at a wrong time, at wrong places, in wrong numbers, using a wrong tech, at a wrong cost, in a wrong way etc.

slave1

Interesting post but I have to disagree or at least shine a different light on some points.

"taxpayer pays the Ecars adventure already"
Remember the massive Carbon fines due by Ireland, by creating an infrastructure and incentives for EV pickup we are reducing our fines so this is money/investment well spent (if spent and implemented with intelligence which we've covered before here, e.g. multi stalls on major routes, stop installing 2kW charge points in 2020 etc.)

The suggestion of layered pricing is fine but the AC pricing as a base needs to be much much closer to wholesale daytime rates, remember there are any amount of folk out there in apartments etc that need to be considered and encouraged to move to EVs, I'd go from a base of 16c for AC. An overnight low rate will lead to abandonment of car at charge point and then inevitable overstay fees which are an absolute joke so for that reason I'd disagree (but it's a hard one to disagree on).
The ESB are essentially pricing themselves out of the market.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, we need to be encouraging public charging, and this needs to be with proper infrastructure investment and not income from AC charging. Maybe I'm off my head but I just cannot see a significant income stream from AC charging.

"the state of course shouldn't build charging infrastructure at all and should focus on legislation"
Infrastructure is a public good and as such the State 100% should be building in early/adoption phase to create the market and attract private investment, they made a balls of their good start by essentially sitting back and abandoning the momentum from initial phase implementation due to sh1te chargers that have proved totally unreliable (early adopter here).

I wonder how much of the SEAI and VRT grant if it was transferred to proper infrastructure investment instead would have benefitted the overall cause?

Finally, all this talk about cost is missing a more salient point that we need to move to EV adoption for the benefit of our health and the Gov through mismanagement of infrastructure and in this case missed opportunity for a more thought out pricing structure is taking out the incentives way too early in the life cycle of EVs.

Stop the Home Charger grant, since it came in the cost has ballooned, stop the SEAI and VRT allowances for PHEVs, stop PHEVs from charging at eCars especially those that hook up to CHAdeMO thereby blocking BEVs, lower the SEAI and VRT allowances for BEVs and channel that money into proper infrastructure investment, free tolls for BEV, bus lanes for BEV, no motor tax for BEVs (a CO2 system that taxes a zero rated car, honestly!).
We need more BEVs on the road and the progression is stalling...this pricing does not help the cause

Kramer

slave1 wrote: »

stop the SEAI and VRT allowances for PHEVs, stop PHEVs from charging at eCars especially those that hook up to CHAdeMO thereby blocking BEVs

I wouldn't stop incentivising PHEVs. They have already introduced a 50km minimum range to qualify for the subsidies.

Many people can commute fully on battery only, in their PHEVs & as more become available, more choice, estates, vehicles capable of towing etc., many more will chose a PHEV before they would ever consider committing to a BEV.

A PHEV is a good transition, many more PHEVs can be produced with limited resources (batteries) & they're improving all the time. There is still a very limited choice available in BEV, namely small, city cars.

My personal preference now is for an X5 PHEV - 24kWh battery c/w a 3.0l straight 6.
Please don't take away the PHEV grants before I get one

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

And finally, the state of course shouldn't build charging infrastructure at all and should focus on legislation, regulations and incentives for private operators to come up e.g. Mandate petrol stations, rest areas, car parks, malls, shopping centres and public buildings to install chargers and provide other incentives for private operators. Because we see the result when the state attempts to build the infrastructure instead - it's built at a wrong time, at wrong places, in wrong numbers, using a wrong tech, at a wrong cost, in a wrong way etc.

The state isn't building charging infrastructure, it's funding it's installation by our our electricity network operator. This is broadly similar to what's happening in other European countries. For instance the Netherlands has an organisation called EVnetNL, you request a local on-street AC charger, which is then planned with the local municipality. EVnetNL then operates the charger on behalf of them. EVnetNL is a joint venture between the electricity networks in the Netherlands.

In all fairness to eCars, I disagree with your many wrongs idea, they built a functional network of fast and slow charging infrastructure with a fairly decent geographic coverage. It needs to grow and expand, which is now happening, albeit far to slowly.

If eCars had only installed a commercially viable network, we would have about 10% of the current charging infrastructure, unfortunately for most people here's opinion, that would probably be a few motorway stations, and locations like Blanch and Naas which were always busy.

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

It's not destination charging. It's slow charging, ESB call it standard charging. That's how it's called by everyone else and everywhere else, well bar Tesla and followers who take Tesla terminology too seriously. You're repeating the same mantra about "destination charging" all the time.

Explain to me rationally without using any mantras why it doesn't make sense if you've correctly confirmed AC charging is a business.

Let me pretend I own 2x 22 kW AC charger. I can sell 2*22*24 = 1056 kWh per day. I absolutely want the following to maximise profits:
A) no empty charger
no cars sitting and not charging
as many faster charging cars as possible

Optimally I'd want Teslas S and Zoes charging 22 kW all the time. Not PHEVs and Leafs charging 3 kW and/or cars plugged in while NOT charging.

Basically, it's about selling as many kWh in as shortest time as possible.

It's a business reality and some sort of time based pricing and/or overstay fee will come soon. Many large cities on the continent already have this in place.

Ok, let's remove the "destination" part as it seems to trigger some people to react.

Let's stick with your verbiage, slow charger.

If you put a slow charger somewhere you will be putting it somewhere where people will go for a number of hours going about their regular business. If you introduce "overstay" fees (you can't overstay on a standard charger IMO but thats another story) you will disincentivize their use. Who will leave the cinema mid way through a film, end a work meeting early, take a bus or train back to the charger half way through work, tell the mrs it's time to leave the clothes shopping at Dundrum etc etc. Not to mention a charger near a hotel, expecting guests to move at 3am after a night in the restaurant and bar is not on.

As a business owner, you want 1) people to use your service and 2) to monetize as best as possible. You can't do 2 before 1.

markpb

slave1 wrote: »

I trump both our examples with the new EasyGo in Edgeworthstown.
It's on a public path facing the main street (not an issue) but if you park to the right of it you are occupying a disabled parking spot and if you park to the left you are blocking a gated entrance.
Literally impossible to (legally/morally) park at it

That sounds really bad. Are there any photos of it? I'd like to see that in action.

AndyBoBandy

This is?

slave1

Yes, that's it. To the left you can see you will be in a yellow box blocking the entrance so I can never see that as viable. To the right where the Model 3P is parked is the Disabled Parking (car is blocking the blue box) so that 3 is illegally parked (assuming no blue badge)

Busman Paddy Lasty

Kilcullen services today. Classic Ioniq and e-Golf using the single eCars charge point. Kona waiting. Luckily didn't need a charge myself. Thursday midday.

BEV sales will stall unless these Hubs materialise very quickly. New services like Kilcullen should have at least 4 of those Delta chargers by now, maybe even more.

Nowhere near good enough.

ELM327

Yes, they should have, but they wont.

Busman Paddy Lasty

Having to wait at a DC charger or the worry of having to wait is a very good incentive to use the AC network! When it suits such as staycations this time of year.

Irishjg

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Kilcullen services today. Classic Ioniq and e-Golf using the single eCars charge point. Kona waiting. Luckily didn't need a charge myself. Thursday midday.

BEV sales will stall unless these Hubs materialise very quickly. New services like Kilcullen should have at least 4 of those Delta chargers by now, maybe even more.

Nowhere near good enough.

Agreed. And to top it off, up to a week ago there was a second unit there but they’ve removed it to install one that is capable of charging faster. Why the hell didn’t they leave the two existing units and add the third one to make it a half decent effort of a hub.

kanuseeme

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Kilcullen services today. Classic Ioniq and e-Golf using the single eCars charge point. Kona waiting. Luckily didn't need a charge myself. Thursday midday.

BEV sales will stall unless these Hubs materialise very quickly. New services like Kilcullen should have at least 4 of those Delta chargers by now, maybe even more.

Nowhere near good enough.

How many BEV's are there in the country now? New and imported?
How many times do you need to be in a situation like that before you make up your mind on what car you will buy next?
I think the Hub building will always be playing catch up.

Calahonda52

ELM327 wrote: »

That photo from Andybobandy above shows why people are mad if they are buying non Tesla EVs

Speak to the hand please.