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The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

Zero-Cool

A thread to openly discuss the full story, thoughts, issues, leaks, etc.

Mods, feel free to close it if unnecessary or apply thread rules.

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GottaGetGatt

We’re all focusing on Joel , Ellie and Abby but Marlene and the Doc set the flame to the fire when they decided to go ahead with the operation on Ellie having never even consulting with Joel. Sure he woke up and Marlene pretty much said, yeah we’re doing the operation on Ellie, it’s gonna kill her but f##k it , we have to save the world. Joel pretty much says f**k that, he’s seen humanity. Marlene and The Doc are the Jamie and Cersei of the Last of Us.

OptimusTractor

I'm presuming that the story takes place beyond Seattle. In regards map clearing can I return post game or once I leave that's it.

SMC92Ian

OptimusTractor wrote: »

I'm presuming that the story takes place beyond Seattle. In regards map clearing can I return post game or once I leave that's it.

Once you leave that's it, you will have to replay the chapter for collectables.

leggo

BruteStock wrote: »

Is not real life , says the guy comparing it to the real life trolley issue. LoL.

The trolley problem is a famous ethical dilemma. Did you think I was talking about the HSE or something?!! :pac:

gimli2112

I've made that kind of mistake before thinking a Rudyard Kipling quip originated in Far Cry 3. I was ridiculed and swore revenge. I'd actually forgotten about it.

Retr0gamer

gimli2112 wrote: »

I was watching a tribute to Joel on Youtube today, I'm still on the road to recovery, and saw the scene where he tortures the two cannibals after waking up to find Ellie gone. That was the scene that probably affected me most, more so than Sarah. It was my first realisation what a bad ass Joel was.

There's really nothing bad ass or to be celebrated about a man that would torture people like that. For me that showed just how awful Joel was as a person and how selfish.

gimli2112

I celebrate violence in my videogames. Personally I thought it heroic, a single minded approach to achieve an outcome at any cost.
It's not like I'd stick a screwdriver in someone's knee to get something done in real life but that's a different debate.

The Raging Bile Duct

leggo wrote: »

The trolley problem is a famous ethical dilemma. Did you think I was talking about the HSE or something?!! :pac:

I think we need to ask - What would Batman do with the HSE trolley crisis?

J. Marston

I think his most brutal act in the first game was the first firefly he killed in the hospital.

Retr0gamer

gimli2112 wrote: »

I celebrate violence in my videogames. Personally I thought it heroic, a single minded approach to achieve an outcome at any cost.
It's not like I'd stick a screwdriver in someone's knee to get something done in real life but that's a different debate.

Remember I said I was being hyperbolic with my sociopath comment? I'd like to take that back now.

I'm not going to see eye to eye on this one as that way of thinking has lead to some of the worst crimes against humanity. The last 20 years being a real eye opener.

Penn

I think it's possible to accept and rationalise Joel's actions both as a result of impending danger and also the state of the world in the game, while also recognising the horrors of same.

I did enjoy the torture scene from the first game, mainly in terms of the writing and performance of it, I thought it was done really well. In a way, yeah, it was badass. Doesn't mean it's not also an abhorrent act though. But then considering he was doing it to save Ellie who he suspected had been captured by their group (regardless of Joel not knowing they were cannibals), the idea of Joel doing it didn't bother me.

It's why there's a conflict between Joel being the hero of the game, and considering Joel to be a hero. Very little he does in the game could be considered heroic, especially since his actions at the end pretty much negates all of it. He's the hero of his own story, and he's the protagonist of the game, but he's not a hero.

gimli2112

meh I don't think about these things. you run the risk of becoming one of those people who think videogames are a leading cause of violence
I assure you I am not considering any crimes against humanity not even little ones
TLOU is a work of fiction that raises some uncomfortable questions, how you would deal with these in the given circumstances is anyone guess
Until the zombie apocalypse, at least I shall remain a very unviolent person

Penn

gimli2112 wrote: »

Until the zombie apocalypse, at least I shall remain a very unviolent person

You won't be saying that if TLOU3 is revealed to be a prequel about how Manny met Alice the dog

gimli2112

I would hope I would remain the same irl but take your point in TLOU3 I would be a murderous hun.
I genuinely don't see how they could go back to Abby and her gang for tlou3. There's a lot of time for that storyline here but in darker recesses of the internet it would not be well received.
Personally I think it would be up there with the Battlefield V developer saying if you don't like it don't buy it.
and people didn't

Penn

I actually quite liked Manny. Not the best character, but don't know why there's a lot of hate being directed at him. Mel was by far the worst character imo.

Stay the f*ck at the base, Mel! You're very, very, very pregnant!

gimli2112

I agree he was probably my favourite of the Abby gang (of thugs). There was widespread rejoycing of his demise elsewhere, which I didn't get. He did spit on Joel's corpse and call him a puta, so I guess there's that.

[Deleted User]

I am allowed post a popcorn.gif

Feels like I should

[Deleted User]

gimli2112 wrote: »

I agree he was probably my favourite of the Abby gang (of thugs). There was widespread rejoycing of his demise elsewhere, which I didn't get. He did spit on Joel's corpse and call him a puta, so I guess there's that.

I enjoyed him getting his head shot off by Tommy tbh

Tommy is underrated

LeeroyJ.

Penn wrote: »

I actually quite liked Manny. Not the best character, but don't know why there's a lot of hate being directed at him. Mel was by far the worst character imo.

Stay the f*ck at the base, Mel! You're very, very, very pregnant!

My Wife loves watching me play the Naughty dog games we both were a bit baffled by this, the game is ultra realistic everywhere but then you have this very pregnant woman climbing up walls, squeezing through walls and fighting lol - whole thing was a bit comical.

Overall I loved the game, the best Naughty Dog has put out to date, even rate it higher than Uncharted 4. I'd give it a 9.5/10 - my only criticism is pacing was all over the place and didn't feel right overall.
Minor gripe, I would have liked some more infected battles and a little less human, especially WLF.

[Deleted User]

I'd argue they completely underused having both infected and enemy factions in the same zones.
One of the best parts was that underground section with the infected and the WLF

They did something similar in Left Behind DLC

Retr0gamer

gimli2112 wrote: »

meh I don't think about these things. you run the risk of becoming one of those people who think videogames are a leading cause of violence
I assure you I am not considering any crimes against humanity not even little ones
TLOU is a work of fiction that raises some uncomfortable questions, how you would deal with these in the given circumstances is anyone guess
Until the zombie apocalypse, at least I shall remain a very unviolent person

I'm not against violence in videogames. Anyone willing to torture another human being is a very sick and twisted person and I'm pretty sure that was Neil Druckmann's vision with that scene, to show just how just how sick and twisted Joel is. It's a reminder of just how bad Joel was. We already knew he was, at the start of the game himself and Tess straight up murdered those smugglers for profit. This goes to highlight that he is even worse than that and foreshadows just how selfish he can be.

I really don't see how anyone can think Joel is cool or badass after torturing people. It's a really disgusting and vile act that really sully's his characters morals and shows a much darker side to him. I'm actually baffled and slightly worried someone could have that interpretation from it and I'd be very surprised if that was the authors vision. I'm pretty sure we are meant to be sickened by Joel's actions and to feel uncomfortable that we were rooting for such a vile character up to that point. That scene for me was what put Joel beyond redemption. I found the smuggler scene a bit uncomfortable but up to that point I was hoping his relationship with Ellie would change him, make him a better person. But then you see all that darkness come pouring right out.

And to get back into Last of Us 2 I think the nuanced nature of Joel shows just how weak TLOU 2 is in terms of writing with most characters being black and white moral caricatures with very hamfisted attmepts to make us like or loath them while the original was so much more nuanced with it's characters.

Penn

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

My Wife loves watching me play the Naughty dog games be both were a bit baffled by this, the game is ultra realistic everywhere but then you have this very pregnant woman climbing up walls, squeezing through walls and fighting lol - whole thing was a bit comical.

Overall I loved the game, the best Naughty Dog has put out to date, even rate it higher than Uncharted 4. I'd give it a 9.5/10 - my only criticism was pacing was all over the place and didn't feel right overall.
Minor gripe, I would have liked some more infected battles and a little less human, especially WLF.

Yeah I felt the infected very much took a backseat until Abby's section. Before the game I was hoping there'd be a good few sections where you could use infected and human enemies against each other, but the few sections of that there were in the game, it did make things a bit too easy so I can see why they didn't use it too much.

gimli2112

tomatoe tomato
I'm comfortable with my interpretation of the scene

[Deleted User]

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm not against violence in videogames. Anyone willing to torture another human being is a very sick and twisted person and I'm pretty sure that was Neil Druckmann's vision with that scene, to show just how just how sick and twisted Joel is. It's a reminder of just how bad Joel was. We already knew he was, at the start of the game himself and Tess straight up murdered those smugglers for profit. This goes to highlight that he is even worse than that and foreshadows just how selfish he can be.

I really don't see how anyone can think Joel is cool or badass after torturing people. It's a really disgusting and vile act that really sully's his characters morals and shows a much darker side to him. I'm actually baffled and slightly worried someone could have that interpretation from it and I'd be very surprised if that was the authors vision. I'm pretty sure we are meant to be sickened by Joel's actions.

Or maybe he wanted to save his effectively new daughter from rapists and cannibals at all cost

They deserved to die and be tortured

Retr0gamer

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd argue they completely underused having both infected and enemie factions in the same zones.
One of the best parts was that underground section with the infected and the WLF

They did something similar in Left Behind DLC

The infected are very much a foot note in this game. I mean if you left the infected out you could put this story into a revenge western and it would lose nothing. It's another reason I feel the writing is so weak in TLOU2, the world and setting are in the background and add nothing.

sweetie

Finished it the other night. I enjoyed it on the whole but would be happy to leave it at that. The game was compelling but flawed and seemed to be somewhat bloated. Also too many human enemies not enough infected! As for the final section of the game - I feel that could have been held back as DLC for later in the year.

Retr0gamer

Deleted User wrote: »

Or maybe he wanted to save his effectively new daughter from rapists and cannibals at all cost

They deserved to die and be tortured

At that point he didn't know anything about them. Did he even know they had kidnapped her at that stage? There were other ways he could have gotten answers. Torture and violence is the extreme response to take, a final resort that really shouldn't be taken so easily. How about tracking them to where they lived? It would have given the same outcome. Yet Joel went straight there and tortured like someone who was an expert in this, this wasn't his first rodeo.

If you look at the psychology of someone that can commit that kind of torture so glibly it points to deep sociopathic tendencies. In our world it might have made him a bit of an alpha male but it the world of TLOU he has let those character flaws turn him into a monster.

I honestly think that the alternative interpretation is a gross simplification of what Neil was writing and really simplifies what is a much more nuanced narrative.

gimli2112

In the preceeding fight scene with the goons doesn't he intermittently shout out "Where is she!"
I'm sure he knows they have Ellie and Joel's going to do what it takes to find her. How you can't see that honestly baffles me.

I would agree that scene was a significant moment in the character development but I simply don't see the things you do.

Retr0gamer

gimli2112 wrote: »

In the preceeding fight scene with the goons doesn't he intermittently shout out "Where is she!"
I'm sure he knows they have Ellie and Joel's going to do what it takes to find her. How you can't see that honestly baffles me.

I would agree that scene was a significant moment in the character development but I simply don't see the things you do.

So he knows before the torture scene that they already have her? If so that makes the torture even more unnecessary. More to satiate his own anger at failing to protect Ellie and to do so by causing damage to not one but two people.

Which if I'm that is true makes a sick act even worse.

gimli2112

Retr0gamer wrote: »

So he knows before the torture scene that they already have her? If so that makes the torture even more unnecessary. More to satiate his own anger at failing to protect Ellie and to do so by causing damage to not one but two people.

Which if I'm that is true makes a sick act even worse.

my God you can be such a chore. Fortunately I've become accustomed to your peculiar combative style of posting. He's torturing them to find her, he knows they have her but not where they have her.
Fuk me if I'm ever captured by cannibals I hope you're not the one coming to rescue me.