Ten of Swords wrote: » A significant number of posts have been deleted, this is the second (and final) reminder that this thread concerns the gender recognition legislation for children under 18. Any more posts conflating trans with pedophilia or mental illness, traveller rights, transgender prisoners, crime from people of a migrant background or any other off topic posting will earn an immediate card and threadban.
wildeside wrote: » Why not just change the legal status of adulthood to 16 years of age and let adults do what they want (more or less)? I mean if you're mature, informed, cognitively developed, level-headed, emotionally stable and wise enough to the degree that you want to initiate the process of something as fundamental as an identify change, then surely that qualifies you as an adult, no? If this doesn't qualify you then what does? And what then is the argument against lowering the age of consent to 16? Anyone?
blanch152 wrote: » The problem with the under-16 issue is that under-16s cannot agree to get married, have sex, make medical decisions, vote, drive, smoke, drink alcohol etc. Why would they be any more able to decide to change gender?
Bannasidhe wrote: » Enda was against it.https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/the-age-of-consent-debate-where-does-ireland-stand-264694.html
ronivek wrote: » ...but I would much rather our medical professionals make that determination in conjunction with the parents of individual children rather than our legislators.
Joeytheparrot wrote: » This is nothing to do with dropping the age of consent to 12. Stop making things up.
Calhoun wrote: » Of course not right away Joey, has to be eased into bit by bit.
freshpopcorn wrote: » I think around 2014 or sometime 16 and 17 year old could married with parental consent and they had to go to court but this is no longer possible!
Joeytheparrot wrote: » Nah. You are making it up.
Calhoun wrote: » Its an opinion based on what we see going on internationally, the optimal goal for allot of these groups is to start the transition before puberty.
wildeside wrote: » My point (which I used the age of consent to illustrate) was that surely if we can entrust 16 yr olds to make decisions on something as fudamental as an identity change we can entrust them to make many other adult like decisions and like when to have sex, whether to smoke, drink, take drugs, drive a motorbike etc, no? I'm not sure I see a difference in principle. We can say you're not old or wise enough to do all these other things but you are when it comes to changing identity? Why not legally treat 16 yr olds as adults?
Joeytheparrot wrote: » Ah right you are not talking about the age of sexual consent.
Bannasidhe wrote: » 16 year olds already have sex. There are direct health implications of smoking, drinking, and taking drugs (which if you are referring to illegal drugs... is illegal for all ages) but 16 years olds do all of those anyway. Ditto drive motorbikes...and I swear over half the tractors on our roads are driven by 12 year olds (it's actually 13 in fields etc and allowed on the road legally aged 16). 16 year old can consent to medical procedures. They can leave school and enter employment - including full-time 40 hr week - and fully liable for tax/USC. They can babysit. Drive motorbikes up to 125cc Drive a work vehicle including a JCB. Drive a jet ski and motorboat. Apply for a firearms certificate. Get a tattoo or piercing. I have to say, driving a tractor on the public highway, owning a firearm, consenting to a surgical procedure, and working a full-time job are all fairly adult in my book. In Scotland and Wales they can vote. We have one of the highest ages of consent in Europe, Sweden, Denmark, Poland, France and Greece are all 15 — the most common in the Union. The Germans and Italians have opted for a year lower at 14 while the British, Dutch, Portuguese and Belgians lie an equal distance the other side of the median, at 16.
wildeside wrote: » It could be argued that some of those things (e.g. owning a firearm, driving a JCB, jetski, getting tattoo's) shouldn't be done by 16 year old bags of hormones (particulary testosterone) but that's another story. My point is still this, what is the substantive difference between a 16 yr old deciding to change their identity and making any other major adult like decision like who to marry, for example? Surely if a child says that the source of their anguish is their gender identity then equally we should listen to a child that says the source of their anguish is the fact they they're not married to person X and let them marry person X and support them in that decision? Doesn't granting this level of autonomy and respect to a 16 yr old not automatically grant them all the rights, respect and autonomgy of an adult? If not, why not?
Bannasidhe wrote: » I honestly cannot answer what the thinking is behind this - all I know is that the suggestion came from FG and as part of the PfG it will be 'discussed'. Just looking at what 16 year olds can legally do you have to admit some of that stuff is very adult so in some ways they are treated as adults and in others not. Some of the age stuff looks very arbitrary - a 16 in Spain/Germany/UK can get married, but they would have to wait until they are 18 in Switzerland and Sweden. A 16 year old can get married in Derry but not in Donegal. If an 19 year old male and a 16 year female got legally married in Limavady and went to Bundoran for their honeymoon could the 19 year old could be arrested for statutory rape?
Gruffalox wrote: » Hmmm. The Sara Philips on the committee bit is an unexpected layer.
TomTomTim wrote: » How confident are you? Can we bookmark this and you can write an apology and admit how wrong you were if it eventually happens? Or would you maybe be willing to make a bet about it? I'll stake a good chunk of money that you'll be wrong as usual; a state you must be well used to by now. After all, I've saved a fortune by dumping my rubbish near travellers, so I've plenty of spare money.
Clarence Boddiker wrote: » Its about exposing children to sexuality at an early age, a creeping, gradual sexualisation of kids. Then inevitably a lowering of the age of consent. A lowering the bar of what is considered Paedophilia. In this clip we see Mr Tatchell asking who has the right to judge whether a 9 year old child was abused if the grown adult (in later years) says he enjoyed it?https://twitter.com/RebBarrettNP/status/1280598710074986497 This is where they want to bring us. I don't care if any Homosexuals are uncomfortable with that, couldn't give a flying fcuk to be honest. What the likes of Mr Tatchell consider to be Paedophilia (which he says he's against) is an adult molesting a child, as in the child does not want it to happen. But in the eyes of Mr Tatchell, if the child consents well then thats not a problem in his eyes. Why do people think they're planning on teaching consent classes in primary schools? At that age there is no consent
ceadaoin. wrote: » Do you honestly that a 16 year old has the mental capacity to consent to marriage though, now matter how mature or "in love" they think they are? And should this be allowed legally? Germany raised the marriage age to 18 btw. England is 16 with parental consent. Spain was previously 14 before they raised it to 16, thats shocking tbh!
Fleetwoodmac wrote: » Little consideration appears to have been taken in terms of decision making and critical thinking from a neurological and developmental point of view, the marked absence in terms of clinicians on the review committee shows a flaw from the outset. it is well known and acknowledged that while a teenager can perform as well as an adult on say, standardised cognitive tests, when emotion comes into the equation, the decision making becomes heavily influenced by emotion and not logic. Adolescence is that crucial period where identity is explored, where mistakes are made and made again, where we tease out where we fit and where we don't. This is a crucial phase of development, borne from neurological and developmental research on frontal lobe (the decision making part of the brain) research. The issue with the age is there is considerable variation between that developmental stage in one 16 year old over another. That variability narrows somewhat as we get older. Citing that a 16 year old can vote, etc etc is really irrelevant in this scenario. It really is imperative that we have clinicians working with teenagers, who are not swayed by societal or political ideology and remain true to the robust neurological and developmental research. This article gives a useful critique in terms of Tavistocks experience and in the absence of such a facility in Ireland should be referenced.https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjxnZDKmb7qAhXZVRUIHQ0RAM4QFjAAegQICBAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fquillette.com%2F2020%2F01%2F17%2Fwhy-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs%2F&usg=AOvVaw2f7zafXG6w_J6g6iI8990s
AndrewJRenko wrote: » Unexpected because? /quote] Because you missed a deleted post where Sara was in a group of 5 presenters on the podium in 2018 at a side event discussion at Dublin Pride with Peter Tatchell.
Gruffalox wrote: » AndrewJRenko wrote: » Unexpected because? Because you missed a deleted post where Sara was in a group of 5 presenters on the podium in 2018 at a side event discussion at Dublin Pride with Peter Tatchell.
AndrewJRenko wrote: » Unexpected because?
AndrewJRenko wrote: » So anyone who's ever been in the same room as him is now tainted for life and can't be considered for any relevant position?
AndrewJRenko wrote: » Ah, the old 'slippery slope' argument. Nice to see you again. It's been a while. I haven't seen you since you told us that we couldn't have marriage equality because people would want to marry their horse. Good old scare tactics on some very sensitive matters - I suppose we should be grateful that you're not threatening fire and brimstone and eternal damnation.
Aontú Leader Peadar Tóibín TD has called on the government to allow children their childhood, and not drag children as young as 5 years old into adult gender politics. “The new Children’s Minister Roderic O’Gorman seeks to change the law to allow for 16- and 17-year olds self-declare their gender possibly without parental consent. The Minister is also looking legalise the self-declaration of gender for children as young as 5 years old,” he said. “The Minister is seeking to legalise what is a massive, complex, life altering decision for children who are too young to vote, drive, take an alcoholic drink or decide even to use a Sun Bed,” the Meath West Deputy said.
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