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Why be good?

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What do you think is the point in being a good person? Is there any reward in trying to do the right thing, often with detrimental consequences to yourself? How does it make sense to you?

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ILoveYourVibes

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Did you read that in SAPIENS, by Yuval Harari?

Because he dociments something very similar, he relates the story of the skeleton of a sick, immature homo spaiens which was clearly nursed during its lifetime, and he convincingly argues that it's in our nature to look after one another, that our natural state is communal, and not selfish.

awh!

I read its the Oxytocin that makes us racist tho....you get a hit of it when you hear or see people like you ...but you don't get a hit of it when you see people different ...so that makes you see them diff

The same emotion that makes you go awh cuddly ..makes you racist :eek:

[Deleted User]

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

awh!

I read its the Oxytocin that makes us racist tho....you get a hit of it when you hear or see people like you ...but you don't get a hit of it when you see people different ...so that makes you see them diff

The same emotion that makes you go awh cuddly ..makes you racist :eek:

I hadn't heard that, but I was told that hugging releases Oxytocin. So it turns out that a good antidote to racism might be hugs. Hug one another.

Tell me how

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Did you read that in SAPIENS, by Yuval Harari?

Because he dociments something very similar, he relates the story of the skeleton of a sick, immature homo spaiens which was clearly nursed during its lifetime, and he convincingly argues that it's in our nature to look after one another, that our natural state is communal, and not selfish.

Isn't that a pretty common viewpoint? It's unlikely the species would have evolved as it has done but for communal systems of care/support/hunting/security etc.

[Deleted User]

Tell me how wrote: »

Isn't that a pretty common viewpoint? It's unlikely the species would have evolved as it has done but for communal systems of care/support/hunting/security etc.

Yes, it does make sense when you sit back and think about it. Reading that book it was the first time I'd encountered the idea expressed with clarity and physical evidence.

Obviously we are a species whose success depends on co-operation, but it's useful to have the proof that it was always so!

ILoveYourVibes

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I hadn't heard that, but I was told that hugging releases Oxytocin. So it turns out that a good antidote to racism might be hugs. Hug one another.

But its the oxytocin that makes you realize a difference between the people around you...

When you hug someone like you ...then you get the release ..when you hug someone unlike you ..you don't get it...apparently!

Who knows though.

I think it goes after you are exposed to people and make friends with diff people.

I guess you have to keep hugging consistently even if it feels awkward at first!

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

I find it really weird and quite disturbing that some people need to imagine there's a god looking over their shoulder in order to be good people. Does that mean they are suppressing a darker side of themselves to please their God and receive some reward in the afterlife but don't actually have a true and natural desire to live a good life and be kind to the people around them?!

Believing in God doesn't have to mean that you're religious.

And having your own set of morals will influence how you behave and whether you feel guilt or remorse for what you do. A personal conscience doesn't need religion to exist.

[Deleted User]

Its nothing to do with good and evil its to do with reciprocity and the fact it benfis the person in the family/ community in the long run.

Would someone want to end up on their own bitter and lonely with little contact from their children or family and no ecosystem of support in their old age, because of their selfishness and spending their life doing what they like without regard for others?

Or would they like to spend the latter years surround by love friendship and support which evolves from not putting themselves first and not spending their life doing what they like?

joe40

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Did you read that in SAPIENS, by Yuval Harari?

Because he dociments something very similar, he relates the story of the skeleton of a sick, immature homo spaiens which was clearly nursed during its lifetime, and he convincingly argues that it's in our nature to look after one another, that our natural state is communal, and not selfish.

Yeah it was in that book I read about the story originally. I've met it a few times since.

[Deleted User]

A

I could never be cruel or rude, or at least I've tried to in the past but I've always felt bad or guilty or embarrassed by the way i acted. I wanted to be like my father the way he nipped arguments in the bud quickly and efficiently, but again I never felt right after doing it.

Maybe that's just one of the weak points of having a conscience.

Dr Bob

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract
Because declaring yourself outside the law and morals is great , but the downside with doing what you want to who you want i you've really got to hope there isn't someone out there more powerful that can do what they want to you , the problem with the law of the jungle is that theres always a bigger predator than you.
So we have laws and moral codes , the downside is that it restricts what we can do , but it also protects us .The Vikings used the term Outlaw for someone who messed up so bad they were thrown out of society , which meant laws didn't protect them , and they could be maimed or murdered without penalty
Also you know its nice to be nice.
Plus I'd like to be treated well , so I treat others the way I'd like to be treated.

jimgoose

Blair Round Rivalry wrote: »

What do you think is the point in being a good person? Is there any reward in trying to do the right thing, often with detrimental consequences to yourself? How does it make sense to you?

You're not the first to ask, philosophers and theologians have been battling this one for a long time. It has been argued that external motivators for being a virtuous person, e.g. "God will kick my arse if I'm not good!" do not a good person make, the motive for good deeds arising therefrom being entirely self-serving. You also have a touch of that around the notion that being good makes people happy. You see the problem...

For what it's worth, Aristotle argued that virtuousness - "being good", if you will - was the natural state of humanity, leading to a state of well-being and intellectual wisdom - "happiness", again if you will - and ultimately, becoming a philosopher. Mind you the same fella also said that would probably happen too if you married a bad wife, so in short, I don't bloody know... :pac:

In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness.

-- Shinmen Musashi

keano_afc

Zebra3 wrote: »

There you go again. People of "faith".

It's a con.

Why do you demand respect for people who are gullible?

It must be exhausting getting this uppity over something you apparently don't even believe in.

ArchXStanton

It's a quick way to end up disillusioned and bitter about it all, I just mirror people.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Believing in God doesn't have to mean that you're religious.

And having your own set of morals will influence how you behave and whether you feel guilt or remorse for what you do. A personal conscience doesn't need religion to exist.

I keep reading this but I can't figure out why you quoted me but anyway, I agree.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

I keep reading this but I can't figure out why you quoted me but anyway, I agree.

Because the idea of looking over the shoulder is connected to the idea of original sin, where the priests and God are watching our behavior, where our immortal soul faces purgatory for failures to conform to the set of acceptable standards.

ie. religion. The belief in "they are suppressing a darker side of themselves to please their God and receive some reward in the afterlife" tends to come from religion, where people are controlled within the rules/laws of that faith, and acting out against that restrictive nature, feel the need to touch some kind of "darker side". We're all from western cultures where religion plays a huge part in how we perceive good and evil.

Agricola

For the vast vast majority it's about consequences.

Not being good usually brings about many negative consequences, whether it be simple things like not exercising or smoking or big things like cheating on a partner or swindling people/avoiding tax or being a Kinahan.

If society wasn't set up in such a way to deter such behaviour, almost everyone would be inherently bad.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because the idea of looking over the shoulder is connected to the idea of original sin, where the priests and God are watching our behavior, where our immortal soul faces purgatory for failures to conform to the set of acceptable standards.

ie. religion. The belief in "they are suppressing a darker side of themselves to please their God and receive some reward in the afterlife" tends to come from religion, where people are controlled within the rules/laws of that faith, and acting out against that restrictive nature, feel the need to touch some kind of "darker side". We're all from western cultures where religion plays a huge part in how we perceive good and evil.

Do you think if someone doesn't believe in an organised religion but does believe in a god, they don't believe their God is watching or passing any judgement on them?

[Deleted User]

Agricola wrote: »

For the vast vast majority it's about consequences.

Not being good usually brings about many negative consequences, whether it be simple things like not exercising or smoking or big things like cheating on a partner or swindling people/avoiding tax or being a Kinahan.

If society wasn't set up in such a way to deter such behaviour, almost everyone would be inherently bad.

So how do you explain the people who set their own lives back or bring negative consequences to themselves to help improve the lives of others?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think if someone doesn't believe in an organised religion but does believe in a god, they don't believe their God is watching or passing any judgement on them?

I think it depends on their personal perception of what God represents. Whereas with religion, you're accepting a version that conforms to a set construction.

My own version of God is more similar to a Terry Pratchett novel. A somewhat senile God who has little interest in what I do... and as long as I'm happy with my behavior, then he/she/it will feel the same. After all, God made me this way, and set the obstacles in my way, to develop me over time, so God will be accepting of the morals that I have created for myself, since I don't apply those same morals on to other people.

Agricola

Deleted User wrote: »

So how do you explain the people who set their own lives back or bring negative consequences to themselves to help improve the lives of others?

Well those people certainly aren't the vast vast majority are they. But if you mean people like carers, well they are usually family members of those who need care. I was in that boat myself, it's no different to having to look after yourself. It's just what you do.
I mean "being good" in general. How many people would be good about not parking in disabled bays if there wasn't the deterent of a hefty fine attached to it. Not too many is my guess.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think it depends on their personal perception of what God represents. Whereas with religion, you're accepting a version that conforms to a set construction.

My own version of God is more similar to a Terry Pratchett novel. A somewhat senile God who has little interest in what I do... and as long as I'm happy with my behavior, then he/she/it will feel the same. After all, God made me this way, and set the obstacles in my way, to develop me over time, so God will be accepting of the morals that I have created for myself, since I don't apply those same morals on to other people.

So what do you think of the people who say they are good because their God wants them to be good rather than saying it's because they want to be good themselves. For example, I was training a woman in for a role with a charity several years ago and we got to chatting. She told me she strongly believed in God and her faith was very important to her. She asked me about my own belief and when I answered her she said how horrible it was not to believe because "you have no motivation to be a good person". I find it worrisome that she only feels she can act good because her God wants her to or is watching or whatever.

[Deleted User]

Agricola wrote: »

How many people would be good about not parking in disabled bays if there wasn't the deterent of a hefty fine attached to it. Not too many is my guess.

Fair enough but I really hope you're wrong.

I like to think empathy is a big driver of how we act and having the ability to think.. if I was injured, unwell, had additional needs etc. I would hope that the bay would be left open for me, so I will leave it open for others who do have those issues.

Behaving good not because some good or evil force is watching, whether that's a god or a devil or a police force or a government or a nosey neighbour but because we can understand how it feels to be treated unkindly and based on that understanding we choose to be good and we choose to be kind.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

So what do you think of the people who say they are good because their God wants them to be good rather than saying it's because they want to be good themselves. For example, I was training a woman in for a role with a charity several years ago and we got to chatting. She told me she strongly believed in God and her faith was very important to her. She asked me about my own belief and when I answered her she said how horrible it was not to believe because "you have no motivation to be a good person". I find it worrisome that she only feels she can act good because her God wants her to or is watching or whatever.

I don't see that it matters, unless when she does bad things, that she passes responsibility on to God too... If being good/bad is externalised, then I wouldn't be a huge fan...

But TBH, each to their own.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't see that it matters, unless when she does bad things, that she passes responsibility on to God too... If being good/bad is externalised, then I wouldn't be a huge fan...

But TBH, each to their own.

Yes. Like those who are homophobic and claim it's against God's wishes for example. They would tell you they are good people, live good lives motivated by their God but they are also the first one's to judge others. Anyway, naturally not all those who believe in God behave that way. Just like many of the people who selected other reasons for behaving good, do believe in God. My original post was merely a musing about those who claim to only be good because God is watching/wants them to. I find that worrisome and like you say each to their own.

joe40

Been good is easy, it is trying to work out the greater good or the lesser of two evils where things get messy.
That is where societal norms and cultures come into play.
Nasty, horrible behaviour can quite easily become socially acceptable in the right situations.

Humans are capable of all kinds of atrocities then.

I'm not judging, I have never been tested in extreme situations and I live in a society that values fairness.

I have been watching some docs about the second world war and seeing pictures ( in colour which makes it more real imo) and the carnage and death is staggering.

We all know logically that it happened but trying to actually imagine living through that I find difficult. Human life can become very cheap.

SharpshooterTom

Most humans are inherently bad when pushed, we're a terrible species and it wouldn't be the worst day in the world honestly when the human race ceases to exist.

Professor Moriarty

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

Most humans are inherently bad when pushed, we're a terrible species and it wouldn't be the worst day in the world honestly when the human race ceases to exist.

I'd find it an unpleasant day personally.

Tell me how

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

Most humans are inherently bad when pushed, we're a terrible species and it wouldn't be the worst day in the world honestly when the human race ceases to exist.

I actually think most people are inclined to be good but that fear, bad experiences can cause them to act differently.

I also think if you expect to see the good in people, you will be more likely to see it.

SharpshooterTom

Tell me how wrote: »

I actually think most people are inclined to be good but that fear, bad experiences can cause them to act differently.

I also think if you expect to see the good in people, you will be more likely to see it.

Most people are assholes online, I actually asked this question over a month ago here, obviously the anonymity factor is huge coupled with the fact that there are no repercussions for dickish behaviour.

But I do believe why so many people are rude and obnoxious online, lacking any empathy, is indicative of what most people actually are when the mask is taken away from them.

My online interactions especially on twitter following politics has made me increasingly misanthropic.

jaxxx

Otherwise, you'd just be a c*nt.