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Why is there no digital leap card for digital wallets

antimatterx

Hi
I'm wondering why there isn't a leap card avaliable for Apple/Google wallets.

It's 2020, this technology isn't exactly complicated and we still have to carry physical cards. It would be nice to drop wallets completely.

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loyatemu

markpb wrote: »

Are there no shops along those routes? We’re talking about Dublin Bus routes, let’s not exaggerate.

also where are they getting their exact change from if they live in the countryside and never visit a shop?

YellowBucket

Main reason is the technology has marched on very, very quickly and transit systems have a lot of expensive technology in terms of card readers and systems behind them.

Leap was planned well over a decade ago and was state of the art at the time.

We’ve gone from a situation where most people didn’t have useful debit cards / credit cards and to one where in a short space of time the banks moved to EMV and contactless and then to one where a large part of the population can pay with their watches and smartphones. That’s happened in a very short time scale.

Some transit systems have pushed ahead with mobile payments, most haven’t. I don’t think Leap is particularly low tech by comparison to what I’ve used elsewhere. It’s middle of the road average level of tech by European standards.

What concerns me more here is the lack of simple ticketing and the cumbersome one door entry and exit approach on buses.

It should be possible to scan your card at multiple points on all busses and trams and have all door entry / exit.

We’ve stupid dwell times, and it’s worse in the cities using Bus Éireann services as they’re still accepting payment in cash and giving change. It’s ludicrous somewhere like Cork where you’ve very busy city bus routes and busses taking an age to depart from stops, often obstructing other road users and delaying the service itself too as passengers keep paying with cash and expecting change.

You shouldn’t need to pay the driver at all. Should simply be card readers scattered around the bus, as is the norm on the continent.

Those kinds of issues need to be addressed urgently. Any kind of transit contactless payment be it the existing Leap card or mobile payments is only the nuts and bolts. It’s the broader picture of how the system knits together and works that lets us down here.

markpb

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do people in the sticks on a 65 or 33 bus route get to the shop to get tickets?

Are there no shops along those routes? We’re talking about Dublin Bus routes, let’s not exaggerate.

markpb

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do people in the sticks on a 65 or 33 bus route get to the shop to get tickets?

Are there no shops along those routes?

GT89

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do people in the sticks on a 65 or 33 bus route get to the shop to get tickets?

And what proportion of these users make up the overall DB ridership? I'd imagine it's a tiny fraction also considering the routes you mention are rather infrequent you'd people using them would be quite prepared knowing the bus times quite well if they can be that prepared surely they can be prepared enough to have a topped up Leap card or contactless card when that's an accepted means of payment.

From observing this discussion I find it amsuing we always here the following
What about people living the outer suburbs? How do people living in outer areas in every other European city that uses this system manage
What about tourists? See above and replace people living in the outer suburbs with the word tourists
What about the elderly/vulnerable? These generally have free travel passes anyway and see above this time replace with elderly/vulnerable

thenightman

Carawaystick wrote: »

When I was getting the 33x at the Custom House, *Everybody* paid by card, and it still took 4-5 minutes to load up the full bus. Cash fares are not the reason for long dwell times.
If you have a season ticket you still need an id card, whether your phone has a ticket it or not.

I've an annual taxsaver leap about 5 years and have never had it checked to make sure it matches me. My photo & name is worn off anyway sure!

Carawaystick wrote: »

How do people in the sticks on a 65 or 33 bus route get to the shop to get tickets?

The same way people living in rural parts on the outskirts of any European city do. They buy a large book of tickets when in the city/closest town/village and keep them at home.

Carawaystick

bk wrote: »

Yep, that goes back more then 50 years and is very common in cities across Europe. Buy books of tickets in a shop, keep them in your bag and then valid one when you board.

We even had something somewhat like that with T90 and similar tickets here.

That is what is crazy about a lot of this stuff, lots of it isn't new, other mainland European cities been doing it for decades and with very little tech involved.

How do people in the sticks on a 65 or 33 bus route get to the shop to get tickets?

GT89

bk wrote: »

Yep, that goes back more then 50 years and is very common in cities across Europe. Buy books of tickets in a shop, keep them in your bag and then valid one when you board.

We even had something somewhat like that with T90 and similar tickets here.

That is what is crazy about a lot of this stuff, lots of it isn't new, other mainland European cities been doing it for decades and with very little tech involved.

I'm really not sure why it's taking them so long to get rid of cash. The elderly and disability groups can't complain as they're mostly on free travel anyhow. The only people I still see paying with cash are actually some younger people and some tourists.

The buses in Rome are actually awful as they are very unreliable, overcrowded and the buses themselves are generally old, filthy and covered in graffiti and window etchings I've also heard reports of numerous older vehicles catching fire but however the system of boarding and alighting is excellent.

GT89 wrote: »

Some places never even took cash to begin with. For example I was in Rome over 15 years ago and none of the buses accepted cash and that before contactless was a thing and before even smart card systems like Leap or Oyster were commonplace. Just go to the tobacconist and buy a travel 90 type ticket and stick it in one of the numerous yellow boxes located throughout a bus or tram. It's actually still the same system there now or at least last time I was there.

Yep, that goes back more then 50 years and is very common in cities across Europe. Buy books of tickets in a shop, keep them in your bag and then valid one when you board.

We even had something somewhat like that with T90 and similar tickets here.

That is what is crazy about a lot of this stuff, lots of it isn't new, other mainland European cities been doing it for decades and with very little tech involved.

GT89

bk wrote: »

Why would we want to do that?!! It makes no sense. Cash has nothing but downsides:

- Slow boarding time, idiots looking for change in their purse, driver interaction, ticket needing to be printed off. It slows everything down.
- Cash handling charges, cash needs to be taken off buses every night, counted, etc.

London was absolutely correct to get rid of cash and it isn't just London, most major transit systems are going the same way. I'd suspect it is only a matter of time for Birmingham too.

Some places never even took cash to begin with. For example I was in Rome over 15 years ago and none of the buses accepted cash and that before contactless was a thing and before even smart card systems like Leap or Oyster were commonplace. Just go to the tobacconist and buy a travel 90 type ticket and stick it in one of the numerous yellow boxes located throughout a bus or tram. It's actually still the same system there now or at least last time I was there.

dfx- wrote: »

There is no need to follow London. We could follow Birmingham where you don't tap in and out and can pay cash. We could think of something new for Dublin.

Really we should now have a flat fare through an app, contactless, Leap card, prepaid and cash. You can hear the cogs very slowly grinding forward in ticketing progress instead of at pace.

Why would we want to do that?!! It makes no sense. Cash has nothing but downsides:

- Slow boarding time, idiots looking for change in their purse, driver interaction, ticket needing to be printed off. It slows everything down.
- Cash handling charges, cash needs to be taken off buses every night, counted, etc.

London was absolutely correct to get rid of cash and it isn't just London, most major transit systems are going the same way. I'd suspect it is only a matter of time for Birmingham too.

markpb wrote: »

I didn’t and I can’t think how the average customer could find out the full value of their device PAN. Certainly on iOS you can only see the last four digits of it. I’m not sure about Android but I suspect it’s the same.

Yep, I would have thought the same, but perhaps the TFL app could read the ID from the device it is loaded on.

GT89

dfx- wrote: »

There is no need to follow London. We could follow Birmingham where you don't tap in and out and can pay cash. We could think of something new for Dublin.

Really we should now have a flat fare through an app, contactless, Leap card, prepaid and cash. You can hear the cogs very slowly grinding forward in ticketing progress instead of at pace.

Why take cash though? London dosen't require you to tap in and out just tap in once for a flat fare. Those that want to pay cash can still do by putting a fiver on a leap card.

markpb

bk wrote: »

Do you perhaps have a TFL account and have registered your "Device Account Numbers" with it?

I didn’t and I can’t think how the average customer could find out the full value of their device PAN. Certainly on iOS you can only see the last four digits of it. I’m not sure about Android but I suspect it’s the same.

dfx-

bk wrote: »

If they follow London's example (which they should), then you eliminate cash.

Your options then are a Leap card (can be unregistered/private) or contactless payment. That is how it is in London. Cash is too slow and has various cash handling issues.

There is no need to follow London. We could follow Birmingham where you don't tap in and out and can pay cash. We could think of something new for Dublin.

Really we should now have a flat fare through an app, contactless, Leap card, prepaid and cash. You can hear the cogs very slowly grinding forward in ticketing progress instead of at pace.

GT89

bk wrote: »

It also works perfectly on buses in Amsterdam. It is second nature to them, everyone has their card in hand and ready to go as they approach their stop. From what I could see, it looks to work extremely well there.

One thing to keep in mind, you don't have to tag-off, you only tag-off if you feel you should be paying less then the max fare.

That could work very well with our proposed two fare structure (a short fare and a 90 minute fare). Most people would be the higher 90 minute fare, so most people wouldn't bother tagging off.

Only the relatively small number of people looking for a short fare need to tag-off then and if they forget or don't care, then there isn't so much cost difference.

Actually I think this way could also work well even on single door buses. Rather then getting the short fare from the driver, just have them tag off when they are leaving the bus. It has the benefit of eliminating fare evasion. They only get the short fare if really entitled to it.

Not perfect of course, a completely flat fare would be best in terms of dwell time, but still MUCH better then the current setup.

Yep, plus 3 or 4 days and entry/exit via any door. Such a great setup, the best really and what we should have done when they got rid of bus conductors. At least the Luas follows this model.

Of course, this model requires FAR more ticket inspectors. That is the trade off of less infrastructure, but IMO worth it very speedy bus service.

BTW I do wonder how enforcement works with the app based ticketing? Could a person just board and not buy a ticket unless they saw a ticket inspector board. Makes cheating easy.

I'm guessing it works because the ticket inspectors are normally "undercover" and watch for how long people are onboard and match it to a timestamp for when the ticket is bought.

Really I think the easiest option to implement in Dublin would be the London system of a flat fare for all passengers with all cards and passes scanned at the one reader. The issue with this though is the subsidy the £1.50 bus hopper fare in London is very reasonable and TFL have been struggling financially because of it.

So such a fare would likely have to be quite heavily subsidised more so than at present. As some people may be put off travelling by bus if they had to pay higher fare to only go a short distance if say the flat fare was €2.50. However such users might be inclined to walk or cycle instead of using public transport freeing up capacity for those travelling longer distances.

The other problem with a tag on/off system is people may tag off shortly after they board and stay on the bus in order to pay the lower fare. This could be mitigated by only having the validators operate whilst the centre doors are open or by of course increasing the amount of revenue inspectors.

However if you do increase the amount of revenue protection you have to ask the question is the best use of money when you could move to a more efficient proof of payment payment with the potential for three door buses. The systems that impress me to the most when it comes to dwell times are the systems where validation is done whilst the bus is in MOTION. For example in Italy the bus simply stops picks up and disembarks passengers then gets moving again like a tram or a train.

OSI wrote: »

I've used my iPhone, Apple Watch and the CC they're both tied to within the same week on TfL and they've all fallen under the same weekly cap.

The TFL site seems to say differently:

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/pay-as-you-go-caps

You must touch in at start and touch out at the end of every journey, using the same contactless card, device or Oyster card. If you don't you may be charged a maximum fare.

If you use contactless, always use the same card or device. If you don't, we can't cap your fares. For example, if you pay with a mobile device on Monday and a contactless card on Tuesday, these fares won't count towards a weekly cap.

Do you perhaps have a TFL account and have registered your "Device Account Numbers" with it?

That might explain how the weekly cap from multiple devices would work. Though it leaves open a way for people to abuse it. You use your Apple Pay device and you give your debit card to another family member to use and both fall under the same daily/weekly cap.

You could use analytics's to look for patterns of abuse, but it would be far from perfect.

markpb

OSI wrote: »

I've used my iPhone, Apple Watch and the CC they're both tied to within the same week on TfL and they've all fallen under the same weekly cap.

TfL advise is to use the same card/medium each time but I've had the same experience as you. I've a decent understanding of EMV and Digital Wallets/Tokenisation but I don't understand how TfL have access to the underlying fPAN to tie them all together. Maybe it's some exemption they agreed with the schemes.

GT89 wrote: »

I think though the issue with tag on tag off is that it may slow down passengers getting off the bus instead of a steady flow of people getting off there will be some rooting around for their leap or contactless card in their bag/wallet whilst getting off. Also if drivers aren't attentive to it some may end up mussing their stop if the doors close before or whilst tagging off. It would be quite messy.

Obivously it works perfectly on the Luas where the tagging on/off is done at the stop rather than on board.

It also works perfectly on buses in Amsterdam. It is second nature to them, everyone has their card in hand and ready to go as they approach their stop. From what I could see, it looks to work extremely well there.

One thing to keep in mind, you don't have to tag-off, you only tag-off if you feel you should be paying less then the max fare.

That could work very well with our proposed two fare structure (a short fare and a 90 minute fare). Most people would be the higher 90 minute fare, so most people wouldn't bother tagging off.

Only the relatively small number of people looking for a short fare need to tag-off then and if they forget or don't care, then there isn't so much cost difference.

Actually I think this way could also work well even on single door buses. Rather then getting the short fare from the driver, just have them tag off when they are leaving the bus. It has the benefit of eliminating fare evasion. They only get the short fare if really entitled to it.

Not perfect of course, a completely flat fare would be best in terms of dwell time, but still MUCH better then the current setup.

goingnowhere wrote: »

But in all this its amazing the Germans don't do any of this rubbish, buy ticket on app or machine, stamp it and off you go. Amazing, need ZERO infrastructure, no NFC, no hassle with Apple etc. Just pay via the app

Yep, plus 3 or 4 days and entry/exit via any door. Such a great setup, the best really and what we should have done when they got rid of bus conductors. At least the Luas follows this model.

Of course, this model requires FAR more ticket inspectors. That is the trade off of less infrastructure, but IMO worth it very speedy bus service.

BTW I do wonder how enforcement works with the app based ticketing? Could a person just board and not buy a ticket unless they saw a ticket inspector board. Makes cheating easy.

I'm guessing it works because the ticket inspectors are normally "undercover" and watch for how long people are onboard and match it to a timestamp for when the ticket is bought.

Dravokivich

There's actually actually a simpler answer around no tag on/off with buses. I'd heard comments that when doing research on implementations in other countries, it was noted that bus services with tag on/off had higher fare evasion due to people tagging off right after they tagged on. An honour system like that won't work out too well here when you've already got a high amount of adults trying to get away with using child cards.

There had even been people who previously taunted Dublin Bus Inspectors over twitter about using their child tickets years ago.

GT89 wrote: »

I think though the issue with tag on tag off is that it may slow down passengers getting off the bus instead of a steady flow of people getting off there will be some rooting around for their leap or contactless card in their bag/wallet whilst getting off. Also if drivers aren't attentive to it some may end up mussing their stop if the doors close before or whilst tagging off. It would be quite messy.

Obivously it works perfectly on the Luas where the tagging on/off is done at the stop rather than on board.

It's only done because there'll be no rebate otherwise. Until Irish Rail left gates open on their stations, tagging off would have been the only way out from a number of them.

goingnowhere

All centre door busses in the Dublin Bus/Go Ahead fleets are wired for readers at the exit doors

Provide two at the front, one left and right, two on the centre doors, one left, one right. Should work fine. The current on bus equipment is painfully slow to read cards, new gear should address that

But in all this its amazing the Germans don't do any of this rubbish, buy ticket on app or machine, stamp it and off you go. Amazing, need ZERO infrastructure, no NFC, no hassle with Apple etc. Just pay via the app

GT89

bk wrote: »

They have had this sort of tap-off on buses in Amsterdam for more then 10 years now.

It isn't a GPS issue.

I'd say the issue with this for us, is that not all buses are dual door yet and even when they are, lots of folks still use the front door for a variety of reasons.

For this to work well, you really need to have it so it is:
- Enter via front door, tag-on there
- Always Exit via the rear door, optionally tag-off there.

This is how it works in Amsterdam.

I think though the issue with tag on tag off is that it may slow down passengers getting off the bus instead of a steady flow of people getting off there will be some rooting around for their leap or contactless card in their bag/wallet whilst getting off. Also if drivers aren't attentive to it some may end up mussing their stop if the doors close before or whilst tagging off. It would be quite messy.

Obivously it works perfectly on the Luas where the tagging on/off is done at the stop rather than on board.

Rulmeq wrote: »

Do you know why they don't just allow tap-on and tap-off like they do on the Luas? Is it that the GPS on the bus isn't reliable enough to know where you are or, are there other reasons?

They have had this sort of tap-off on buses in Amsterdam for more then 10 years now.

It isn't a GPS issue.

I'd say the issue with this for us, is that not all buses are dual door yet and even when they are, lots of folks still use the front door for a variety of reasons.

For this to work well, you really need to have it so it is:
- Enter via front door, tag-on there
- Always Exit via the rear door, optionally tag-off there.

This is how it works in Amsterdam.

dfx- wrote: »

For some reason in Dublin, this seems to be seen as a way of phasing out cash payments in particular than just giving another option...

If they follow London's example (which they should), then you eliminate cash.

Your options then are a Leap card (can be unregistered/private) or contactless payment. That is how it is in London. Cash is too slow and has various cash handling issues.

goingnowhere wrote: »

7 day capping would be possible on the EMV

markpb wrote: »

The way EMV works in transport allows TfL to apply daily and weekly caps so I don't think there's a technical reason why you couldn't attach a monthly or annual ticket to a debit card. You shouldn't need ATE to support that. There might be a commercial reason for TfL not doing it though.

Yep, I'm aware of that. Though it is a bit more complicated then that and has some gothcha's

This isn't actually linked to your debit card number, Apple Pay never sends your debit card number, instead it sends tokenized data.

So lets you have a contactless debit card and you register it with Apple pay and have both an iPhone and Apple Watch. Well all three of those are considered unique devices.

So if you use the debit card the first day, apple watch the day after and iphone the day after that, you now have three separate weekly caps.

This can also be an issue for tag-off, you need to use the same device to tag-off as you tagged-on, even if they are the same debit card behind them.

It might be possible to register a debit card or one of those devices with your Leap account to be your monthly/annual/free travel pass. However the leap app would need to be able to access that unique device data and off the top of my head, I'm not sure if that is possible, I'd have to check the API's. Could be possible, but not simple.

Carawaystick wrote: »

When I was getting the 33x at the Custom House, *Everybody* paid by card, and it still took 4-5 minutes to load up the full bus. Cash fares are not the reason for long dwell times.
If you have a season ticket you still need an id card, whether your phone has a ticket it or not.

You need the combination of card + flat fare + zero driver interaction (right hand validator) + probably new ticket machines, to really get the benefit.

I've told this story before, but probably worth repeating. I'm on a bus and I see that the approaching bus stop has about 30 Spanish students. I think we are going to be here all day! But nope, I watch in amazement as they all quickly bored and tag-on at the right hand validator. Just a stream of beeps, barely stopping in their stride to tag on. Very quick.

There was also about 4 or 5 local's paying by cash or leap via the driver. They took longer to board then the 30 students!!!!

With the right setup, you definitely get improvements in boarding time.

Idleater

Rulmeq wrote: »

Do you know why they don't just allow tap-on and tap-off like they do on the Luas? Is it that the GPS on the bus isn't reliable enough to know where you are or, are there other reasons?

I think I read/heard the scanner/reader model doesn't have enough memory or CPU or something.

Not 100% on that info but I remember going hmmmm in the discussion.

Sheep Shagger

antimatterx wrote: »

That's shockingly ineffecient

Stop bashing the public service lol

Rulmeq

CatInABox wrote: »

It kinda still is. Apparently the current machines have to be set to be ready to take a cash fare first, which slows down the read of any card used.

Do you know why they don't just allow tap-on and tap-off like they do on the Luas? Is it that the GPS on the bus isn't reliable enough to know where you are or, are there other reasons?

yer man!

I always thought that that Dublin Bus would be better off with a flat fare and making good use of the validator on board already. Pick a fare around 2.50 and allow everyone tap and get on as quickly as possible. I remember the first time I ever got the bus and was so confused seeing everyone get on and mumble what seemed like random numbers to the driver like some procession.

AngryLips

CatInABox wrote: »

It kinda still is. Apparently the current machines have to be set to be ready to take a cash fare first, which slows down the read of any card used.

As part of BusConnects/NGT, they'll be moving to two fares, a short hop fare for 3 or 4 stages, and a flat 90 minute fare. The 90 minute fare will allow you to move between types of public transport without being charged again.

All this taken together will decrease dwell times by a good amount.

Hopefully a two fare system will remove the need for driver interaction: go to the left validator for the short fare, right validator for the flat fare.

antimatterx

yer man! wrote: »

Time frame to implementation of next generation ticketing is up to 2027

https://www.thejournal.ie/cashless-payments-on-public-transport-4897407-Nov2019/

Will be a while yet.....

That's shockingly ineffecient