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Let's all talk about Lewis?

Joeseph Balls

I'm not a Lewis hater, nor a fan.
I dislike the guy out of the car but this shouldn't cloud our judgement.
How close is he to being one of the greats?
Driving ability, he has to be up there?
I still think Alonso is a better driver or is this becoming a cliche?
His car has been an advantage, with Ferrari now very close, is it time we give him credit?
Is he just a very good driver, with a very good car, or are we witnessing an all time great?

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NIMAN

He wants equality.

I wish I was an equal with him!

AndyBoBandy

I don't really follow F1, but do remember just before Hamilton's debut season, ITV (I think) did a piece on him that I happened to watch, and when the races started, and he kept finishing on the podium, I took a little notice that the guy must have been quite good to be finishing so high up so early in his career, regardless of what car he was in.

Back in January I was at a conference, where the guest speaker was a former F1 mechanic (called Elvis?), who worked with Hamilton at one stage, and we got chatting afterwards (about the fact we were both about to buy a Tesla), and a colleague brought up Hamilton and the guy said that Hamilton was an absolute pr1ck of the highest order.

The guy seemed genuine enough so I took his word that Hamilton is not a nice person.

Needles73

flazio wrote: »

He's an unapologetic Social Justice Warrior. And as such will always alienate a big chunk of Formula 1 fandom.

Social justice warrior who is happy to drive for Mercedes and Hugo Boss.....great history those companies have alright

NIMAN

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

and a colleague brought up Hamilton and the guy said that Hamilton was an absolute pr1ck of the highest order.

That has been reported many times in the media.

Anjobe

NIMAN wrote: »

That has been reported many times in the media.

And why single Hamilton out? Selfishness, arrogance and self-entitlement seem to be very common parts of the make up of a successful racing driver. Very few of them really come across as nice people.

Joeface

I hate commenting on this stuff .

Lewis Hamilton is a fantistic driver cannot argue with that , the stats speak for themselves .
But he is not the nicest of people , he does have to be no has to be. All you have to do is look how he Treat Nico Rosberg after he lost that battle . Even if you dont Like Nico Rosberg , he still treats lewis with the utmost respect when comentating on Races , but did receive an ounce of repect the other way as the only guy to beat him in the last 5years .

The best thing to do really is leave all the following behind . I did that a few years ago he annoys me much less , I enjoy the racing more . The need for these people to be on social media as a voice is pointless . this goes for all sporting People.
Pre and Post race interviews are all thats needed . They should not be held up as the voice of reason or role models. ( Role models of how to drive at the highest level maybe ) not anything from their private lives .

Anjobe

Burkie1203 wrote: »

That social justice doesn't include Malaysia though because they own one of his teams main sponsors

Think hypocrit is more appropriate word

If you are speaking out about injustice in Malaysia then good for you, if not then calling out someone else who isn't as a hypocrite is just hypocrisy itself.

Needles73

LIGHTNING wrote: »

lol I love when that tripe that gets rolled out especially on a forum (look up IBM).

Who is the social justice warrior sponsored by IBM ? Lol love when someone posts something irrelevant

quokula

The last time there was a single driver on the grid who had a car as good as the one he was in, and who wasn't a second rate driver specifically hired not to challenge him, he came second in a two horse race.

Over three seasons as Jenson Button's team-mate prior to that, he scored fewer points than Jenson. In that time Jenson secured a second place in the WDC - proving the McLaren was very capable of beating the Red Bull, because the one with Jenson in it did beat the one with Mark in it - yet Lewis never came higher than 4th in that period. The only title he's ever won that wasn't in a dominant Mercedes, was in a McLaren that was designed with the aid of illegally stolen Ferrari blueprints, with another subservient second rate Finnish team-mate in the other car. Even then Felipe Massa (who's a very likeable driver, but hardly an all time great) came within a lap of defeating him.

But to come back to 2016, before Mercedes overlooked many great drivers and chose to put Bottas in the second Mercedes to ensure Hamilton would win every title by default. In 2016 Lewis had a car under him that scored 20 out of 21 pole positions. It won 19 out of 21 races. The driver in the other car was Nico Rosberg, a journeyman who achieved two podiums and zero wins in his entire career outside of Mercedes. This wasn't Senna / Prost. Yet Hamilton failed to win that title. On top of his failure to even challenge for a title against the Red Bulls in a car that was capable of doing so in Button's hands before that, I find it utterly nonsensical that anyone can discuss him on a list of all time greats.

His recent clashes with Albon shows that his race craft continues to leave a lot to be desired. Regular collisions were a consistent part of his career up until a few years ago when he got a car that was too fast to ever need to race anyone. But the mistakes and blunders happen all too frequently on the rare occasion he is challenged. And I'm not even going to start going into his attitude issues and petulance both on the radio and post race whenever things don't go his way.

I hate that a lot of people are conflating criticism of Lewis with criticism of BLM or other initiatives. I fully support the causes he's been promoting and I find some of the above posts attacking him for being a "social justice warrior" to be pretty horrible. That doesn't mean I think he isn't a wildly overrated racing driver though.

Class MayDresser

Joeface wrote: »

. The need for these people to be on social media as a voice is pointless . this goes for all sporting People.
Pre and Post race interviews are all thats needed . They should not be held up as the voice of reason or role models. ( Role models of how to drive at the highest level maybe ) not anything from their private lives .

Ditto, why most sports stars are held as gauges for moral and social responsibilities is ridiculous. Drive the car,do your job. If it bothers you that much, let your sponsors know and drop them. Lead by example from your perched throne.

Anjobe

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Your ignorance is blinding, you mentioned the following:

Look up IBM's history in the holocaust. So many companies have a terrible past but I don't see you mentioning them. Pretty much every single manufacturing/production company in a country at war will be used. So say "oh look at Mercedes and Hugo boss" is a complete cop out.

If you realistically speaking singled out and didn't use any company that had a checkered past you wouldn't be able to drive a large percentage of cars or use an awful lot of modern appliances

^^^This, plus the argument that anyone currently associated with these companies bears any responsibility for events that happened in the past, and that those events reflect on them in anyway is complete rubbish.

If anything, Germany provides an example that other countries could follow of how to face up to their history and its legacy.

Richard Hillman

I think he has suffered from the radio mics being available to broadcast. Maybe Schumacher was in his car constantly moaning about his car? But for somebody who has had the best car in the sport by a mile over the years, he doesn't half complain a lot about it.

Then there is the American accent...

alchemist33

Needles73 wrote: »

Social justice warrior who is happy to drive for Mercedes and Hugo Boss.....great history those companies have alright

I drive a Ford. Am I supposed to care that its founder had some dodgy views a century ago?

walshb

Very difficult to truly asses modern drivers due to the machines being so helpful and advanced..

He has the numbers, but the car was always the best..

Similar to Schumacher.

Was MS better than Hakinen?

I think Mika wins more than MS if both in identical cars..

Lewis is a very good driver...

Very hard to like, though. Very pretentious individual. Shallow.

[Deleted User]

walshb wrote: »

Very difficult to truly asses modern drivers due to the machines being so helpful and advanced..

He has the numbers, but the car was always the best..

Similar to Schumacher.

Was MS better than Hakinen?

I think Mika wins more than MS if both in identical cars..

Lewis is a very good driver...

Very hard to like, though. Very pretentious individual. Shallow.

Have to disagree on Schumi.

2000 - won Championship, both McLarens ahead of Barrichello.
2001 - won Championship, Coulthard 2nd, Hakkinen had given up.
2002 - dominant (car)
2003 - won Championship followed by a McLaren and a Williams
2004 - Dominant car.
2005 - 3rd. Barrichello 8th
2006 - 2nd. Barrichello 7th

Eddie Irvine insisted that he (Irvine) was as good as any other driver except Schumacher. The Formula certainly suited him but the way racing was then just putting in quali laps til tyres went off a little and you refueled was better in terms of demonstrating sheer driver skill.

d8491prj5boyvg

walshb wrote: »

Very difficult to truly asses modern drivers due to the machines being so helpful and advanced..

He has the numbers, but the car was always the best..

Similar to Schumacher.

Was MS better than Hakinen?

I think Mika wins more than MS if both in identical cars..

Lewis is a very good driver...

Very hard to like, though. Very pretentious individual. Shallow.

Schumacher won championships in a Benetton that was not the class of the field. Mika won when in a top Newey car and when Schumacher broke his leg.

Schumacher also helped build the team that created the success. A driver doesn't get handed the car with a bow, moreso back then.

quokula

walshb wrote: »

Very difficult to truly asses modern drivers due to the machines being so helpful and advanced..

He has the numbers, but the car was always the best..

Similar to Schumacher.

Was MS better than Hakinen?

I think Mika wins more than MS if both in identical cars..

Lewis is a very good driver...

Very hard to like, though. Very pretentious individual. Shallow.

Schumacher earned his reputation long before he set foot in a dominant car. He won the 1994 championship in a car that scored a total of 11 points in the hands of his teammates. Two third places, a fifth and a sixth was the sum total of that car's results without Schumacher in the car. With Schumacher in the car, it won nearly every race it finished.

He dominated in 95 once he had a car that was good enough for his team-mate to get up to 4th in the championship. When he switched to Ferrari, they had an unreliable dog of a car but he still won three races, including that legendary wet drive in Spain, while his teammate managed 11 points in the whole year.

In 97 and 98 he managed to take the title fight to the wire against utterly dominant Newey designed cars. Across those two years the other Ferrari won a grand total of zero races.

99 could have been his year as Ferrari had their best car yet, but of course the broken leg cost him. When he did come back at Malaysia that year after recovering, he outqualified the whole field by a second and made the rest of them look like amateurs in the race.

And then we get to 2000 when he was already undisputably the best driver in the sport, but he finally started getting cars that were befitting of his talent, at which point he became unstoppable, even as the FIA regularly switched the rules around to try and make things more competitive.

It's a pretty stark contrast with Lewis who was good but not great before joining Mercedes. He rarely entered the conversation as to who the best driver in F1 was prior to getting a dominant car, that was always between Alonso and Vettel. For example, see the vote here in 2011, where Hamilton was rated fourth, behind Vettel, Alonso and even his own teammate Button who beat him in the same car.

He then ran away from McLaren and got very lucky to end up at a team who used their political clout behind the scenes to force through an engine formula that they were far more prepared for than anyone else, along with the crazy token system that didn't allow anyone to start catching up for a year, at which point the deficit was near insurmountable and any rule changes have generally done more to close down any potential challengers, in stark contrast to the attempts to close up the field when Ferrari were dominant.

And thus Lewis has been winning by default every year since. Except the time when Nico Rosberg beat him to the title in the same equipment of course, but Mercedes soon put the worst driver they could find in the second car to put a stop to that. It's not remotely comparable to Schumacher's achievements.

Anjobe

quokula wrote: »

Schumacher earned his reputation long before he set foot in a dominant car. He won the 1994 championship in a car that scored a total of 11 points in the hands of his teammates. Two third places, a fifth and a sixth was the sum total of that car's results without Schumacher in the car. With Schumacher in the car, it won nearly every race it finished.

I don't doubt Schumacher's greatness, but I don't think I would use 1994 as evidence of such. Williams were badly affected by Senna's death that year, and Schumacher only beat Williams' no 2 driver by a single point by crashing into him and taking him out in the final race.

Also, the other Benetton drivers only scored 11 points? I think that is explained by the identities of those drivers and doesn't have much bearing on the qualities of the car.

selectamatic

Wasn't there quite a few questions surrounding traction control on Schumacher's 94 Benetton especially after supposed dormant software was found on the cars computer.

Inquitus

selectamatic wrote: »

Wasn't there quite a few questions surrounding traction control on Schumacher's 94 Benetton especially after supposed dormant software was found on the cars computer.

Yes there was, they also cheated with their refueling rig that year as well!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formula_One_cheating_controversy

quokula

selectamatic wrote: »

Wasn't there quite a few questions surrounding traction control on Schumacher's 94 Benetton especially after supposed dormant software was found on the cars computer.

There were a lot of accusations thrown around, no evidence was ever found that it was used.

quokula

Anjobe wrote: »

I don't doubt Schumacher's greatness, but I don't think I would use 1994 as evidence of such. Williams were badly affected by Senna's death that year, and Schumacher only beat Williams' no 2 driver by a single point by crashing into him and taking him out in the final race.

Also, the other Benetton drivers only scored 11 points? I think that is explained by the identities of those drivers and doesn't have much bearing on the qualities of the car.

Did you watch that season? It only went down to the last race due to some very dubious decisions like multiple race bans for overtaking someone for a moment on the formation lap (Verstappen did the same thing on the formation lap at Austria last weekend and nobody batted an eyelid) - the only times Hill beat Schumacher on track in the entire season were the time that Schumacher was stuck in 5th gear for an entire race, and the Japanese GP where Hill did put in an exceptional drive in wet conditions.

Anjobe

quokula wrote: »

Did you watch that season? It only went down to the last race due to some very dubious decisions like multiple race bans for overtaking someone for a moment on the formation lap (Verstappen did the same thing on the formation lap at Austria last weekend and nobody batted an eyelid) - the only times Hill beat Schumacher on track in the entire season were the time that Schumacher was stuck in 5th gear for an entire race, and the Japanese GP where Hill did put in an exceptional drive in wet conditions.

lol...and don't forget Adelaide where Damon would have won as well (and won the championship) if Schumacher hadn't crashed into him, accidentally on purpose.

Anjobe

quokula wrote: »

...like multiple race bans for overtaking someone for a moment on the formation lap...

If you actually told the full story on that one it wouldn't support your argument very well, would it?

[Deleted User]

Just now saw the thread and was sure it was going to be about kneeling.

Couldn't have picked a better time OP to start an 'ambiguous' /'clickbait' thread imo..

That it's in the Motorsport and not the AH forum wasn't relevant to my thinking.

He must be one of the greats; as otherwise he wouldn't have won so much.

But back to the topic at hand (I've only read the first few posts) he can't be good for the sport currently with all the division he's sowing - on issues that would scarcely affect a man of his upbringing - by expecting everyone to go along with the bs.

That is all

skipper_G

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just now saw the thread and was sure it was going to be about kneeling.

Couldn't have picked a better time OP to start an 'ambiguous' /'clickbait' thread imo..

That it's in the Motorsport and not the AH forum wasn't relevant to my thinking.

He must be one of the greats; as otherwise he wouldn't have won so much.

But back to the topic at hand (I've only read the first few posts) he can't be good for the sport currently with all the division he's sowing - on issues that would scarcely affect a man of his upbringing - by expecting everyone to go along with the bs.

That is all

To be fair, this thread was started 2 years ago

quokula

Anjobe wrote: »

If you actually told the full story on that one it wouldn't support your argument very well, would it?

The full story was that he overtook Hill on the formation lap for a moment, gave the place back (something that happens all the time and never warrants any penalty), he was given a stop go penalty but due to some understandable confusion at being given a penalty for something that has never otherwise been penalised in the history of the sport, he ended up serving the penalty a couple of laps later than required, costing him the race win, and then he was also banned for two races for his trouble.

The New York Times describe the full story pretty well, as it was a blatant attempt to stop him running away with the championship.

Michael Schumacher should have seen it coming. It's not that the infraction that got him a two-race ban yesterday from the world Formula One championship was so serious. The worst error committed by Schumacher -- the German driver who is now threatened with seeing the wheels come off a smooth ride to the 1994 world championship -- may be that he simply became too big too fast.

Anjobe

quokula wrote: »

The full story was that he overtook Hill on the formation lap for a moment, gave the place back (something that happens all the time and never warrants any penalty), he was given a stop go penalty but due to some understandable confusion at being given a penalty for something that has never otherwise been penalised in the history of the sport, he ended up serving the penalty a couple of laps later than required, costing him the race win, and then he was also banned for two races for his trouble.

The New York Times describe the full story pretty well, as it was a blatant attempt to stop him running away with the championship.

Nope, still not the full story - are you not going to mention the black flag he also ignored (and the real reason he was suspended)?

[Deleted User]

skipper_G wrote: »

To be fair, this thread was started 2 years ago

Apologies

I saw 08/07 and never noticed the '18'

Was just about to edit it

Again, apologies

quokula

Anjobe wrote: »

Nope, still not the full story - are you not going to mention the black flag he also ignored (and the real reason he was suspended)?

I specifically did mention that he took his penalty a couple of laps later than required. You may call this ignoring a black flag. Anyone reasonable (such as the New York times article I linked) would call it what it was, a slight delay in taking the penalty in the context of the confusion within the team at being penalised for something that multiple drivers do at every race weekend and has never otherwise been penalised.