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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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[Deleted User]

enricoh wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Ireland has a banking regulator paid from the public purse.
A bit of googling tells me Patrick neary was the regulator keeping tabs on the banks during the tiger. Stellar work Patrick, no doubt sent to pasture with the lump sum n pension!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/banking-inquiry-patrick-neary-arguably-5777369.amp

Right so let's be absolutely clear on this, your argument now is in one sentence:

It's the public sector fault because they didn't stop the private sector from acting the idiots and ruining things.

That makes sense, it's not the criminals fault, the guards should have stopped him.
It's not the arsenist, the fire brigade should have stopped the fire sooner
The doctor didn't stop me from eating fried food so it's his fault I'm fat
I only got drunk because the barman kept serving me.

You have lost all credibility in your efforts to blame everyone but look in a mirror

[Deleted User]

Dav010 wrote: »

This was said by another poster earlier, I asked how he/she bailed out the private sector, no responce. How did you prop up the private banking/property sector?

Well I took a 20% wages cut and 25% reduction in allowances because the country found itself needing to prop up failed banks using public funds. We nationalised private losses.

Then I got hit with a public sector tax that the private sector didn't so thats a direct 7% tax payable only by public sector staff and used to fund a loan that went to private investers and had to date not resulted in I or indeed any Joe grunt benefiting.

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly

Have any folks here lobbied their local TD's to make the case for public sector pay cuts? This might be more effective than making the point in an internet forum thread.

[Deleted User]

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Well I took a 20% wages cut and 25% reduction in allowances because the country found itself needing to prop up failed banks using public funds. We nationalised private losses.

Then I got hit with a public sector tax that the private sector didn't so thats a direct 7% tax payable only by public sector staff and used to fund a loan that went to private investers and had to date not resulted in I or indeed any Joe grunt benefiting.

You took a pay cut, so did everyone else. Do you not think public servants invested in property or paid more than they could afford for houses? Give me a break.

You kept your job because you were a PS while tens of thousands in the private sector lost theirs, and boy did you complain bitterly, still are, about having to take a pay cut.

I’m reading an article by Brenda Power in the Times, she has a very valid point about teachers refusing to go back teaching in September, they should be put on the Covid payment, if still in place, if they won’t work.

[Deleted User]

Dav010 wrote: »

You took a pay cut, so did everyone else. Do you not think public servants invested in property or paid more than they could afford for houses? Give me a break.

You kept your job because you were a PS while tens of thousands in the private sector lost theirs, and boy did you complain bitterly, still are, about having to take a pay cut.

I’m reading an article by Brenda Power in the Times, she has a very valid point about teachers refusing to go back teaching in September, they should be put on the Covid payment, if still in place, if they won’t work.

rubbish to state that "everybody else" took a pay cut. hundreds of thousands of private sector workers didnt and many of them enjoyed rises throughout the crisis and big rises since. do you think that none of us know anyone in the private sector? most of my mates creamed it and continue to do so in the IT sector- and good luck to them. we all knew the drill when we signed up to our various gigs.

and, because you seem determined to not make a coherent and in-context point, i'll remind you and the rest of ye that i didnt join the public service in order to worry about my job or income during private sector crashes. so dont lecture us about losses and my responsibility to take them on when it happens.

you also seem determined to not draw a distinction between a private sector crash and people buying houses. newsflash- people have to live in houses. the crash was systemic and endemic to two entire private sector industries- banking and construction.

public servants as employees of govt are not responsible for the failure of govt to regulate vulpine and rapine private industry, but if the govt started to do so in a serious way tomorrow id be fine with it and i guarantee the same three dynamos of ****etalk that have run this thread from their positions of all-seeing private sector wisdom would be squealing from the heavens.

who cares what an opinion piece in a private sector mouthpiece publication said? totally unconnected to anything tbh.

[Deleted User]

Dav010 wrote: »

You took a pay cut, so did everyone else. Do you not think public servants invested in property or paid more than they could afford for houses? Give me a break.

You kept your job because you were a PS while tens of thousands in the private sector lost theirs, and boy did you complain bitterly, still are, about having to take a pay cut.

I’m reading an article by Brenda Power in the Times, she has a very valid point about teachers refusing to go back teaching in September, they should be put on the Covid payment, if still in place, if they won’t work.

No, not everyone took a pay cut. People lost their jobs (less than 10% by the way) but it's a myth that everyone took cuts. In fact plenty working in banks kept their salary's at the same level. They lost perks and bonuses which I never got in the first place but I knew that going into my career. The main job losses were in construction and oddly enough, many of them returned to that same industry instead of joining the public sector.

I'm not doing the houses again, it's less than 5 pages since that rubbish was dealt with. Fyi, you don't appear to be able to separate public from private. If I start a business on the side, that's a private enterprise, nothing to do with the public sector. If I do that then I should be fully aware that my business may go bust and I'm dependent on the customer and demand remaining.

mosii

Met a guy once in a kids play ground while our kids were playing,we started a conversation.He was an extremely nice guy,until the public sector wages came up.He was like a light switch,couldnt understand why the public sector wages were so high,even when i said to him I was a soldier/corporal, for 15 years and my wages were 560 per week,and having to pay 50 euro diesel just to get to the barracks.Its a debate that will go on forever.My opinion is,if we take money out of the economy ,we will all suffer in the end.If people want to cut the public sector,why not cut builders ,electricians plasterers plumbers,etc.,they are still on good money,i know i cant get one cheap.

[Deleted User]

we live in a high cost economy, especially taking into account the cost of housing

this hasnt been addressed by successive govts because to do so would be to endanger the recovery/bailout of banking and property wealth that was their central policy and concern since 2012

if the govt and private sector could be trusted to settle property prices at a reasonable level then perhaps the employees of the govt as a collective could find their way to forgiving the attack on their conditions over the past decade and be in a mood to see what could be done about salaries next round of discussions

as it is, public servants are still paying too much to rent and own their homes, and their pay packets still havent recovered from the measures they agreed to to help the country out of the last private sector crash

id have thought that the very least the limited-imagination brigade who can only see a solution of "cripple the public service" could do when coming to make their case is to ask nicely but alas

[Deleted User]

Let's be honest here, none of the naysayers here would dream of taking a voluntary cut in their salaries for 'the greater good' if their industry was still going strong.

Not a hope in hell would they. They see only concerned about the browns down the road and how unfair it all is that someone else doesn't take the hit.

enricoh

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Right so let's be absolutely clear on this, your argument now is in one sentence:

It's the public sector fault because they didn't stop the private sector from acting the idiots and ruining things.

That makes sense, it's not the criminals fault, the guards should have stopped him.
It's not the arsenist, the fire brigade should have stopped the fire sooner
The doctor didn't stop me from eating fried food so it's his fault I'm fat
I only got drunk because the barman kept serving me.

You have lost all credibility in your efforts to blame everyone but look in a mirror

I was responding to the text below by Dublin girl that the banking crisis had nothing to do with the public sector. We had a regulator who was utterly incompetent n didn't rein in the lending. That was his job.
Btw the banking crisis debt is only a small percentage of the national debt, unsustainable welfare and ps rates are the real issue.

Quote: Dublingirl80
It's funny how the people in the private sector choose pay and perks over security then when crisis hits the public sector should take a hit. As for the banking crisis, nothing to do with the public sector. Everyone chooses their line of work to some degree. If you aren't happy with your decision then change career and stop begrudging others their job security.

enricoh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

as it is, public servants are still paying too much to rent and own their homes, and their pay packets still havent recovered from the measures they agreed to to help the country out of the last private sector crash

id have thought that the very least the limited-imagination brigade who can only see a solution of "cripple the public service" could do when coming to make their case is to ask nicely but alas

Public sector pay in the Celtic tiger was built on the quicksand that was the building boom.
I just hope that the corporation tax they rely on now doesnt evaporate as the headwinds are increasing on it.

[Deleted User]

enricoh wrote: »

Public sector pay in the Celtic tiger was built on the quicksand that was the building boom.
I just hope that the corporation tax they rely on now doesnt evaporate as the headwinds are increasing on it.

jesus man will u even try

*all* salaries in this high-cost economy are built on the bull**** boom-bust property and banking wheeze, with an unhealthy dash of modern-day guruism service industry sprinkled on top for good measure

now lookit

if the property boom could be reversed *in every way* and that includes all private sector remuneration, the wealth skimmed from salaried workers and taxpayers on both sides of the public/private divide alike, and the price of a house down the country (where a job would exist for you if you wanted it) was within the reach of a single salary of 40k

then we could talk

what you are asking for is that only one sector go for this, while the other sector keep their twenty year gains and costs stay at the level dictated by the gains of both sectors

look you know very well that that is an absolutely ridiculous starting demand

you are at the level of rumplestilskining through the kitchen floor and yet you seem to want to be taken seriously

please, tell me- can you see from your point and what i just bothered to explain to you that you are not to be taken seriously?

i would like to pretend to take you seriously but you are not showing me the stuff for that to happen.

[Deleted User]

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Let's be honest here, none of the naysayers here would dream of taking a voluntary cut in their salaries for 'the greater good' if their industry was still going strong.

Not a hope in hell would they. They see only concerned about the browns down the road and how unfair it all is that someone else doesn't take the hit.

Actually I agree with your second point, many people are concerned that the PS are not also taking the hit. With some justification.

tayto lover

Dav010 wrote: »

Actually I agree with your second point, many people are concerned that the PS are not also taking the hit. With some justification.

What justification?

[Deleted User]

tayto lover wrote: »

What justification?

Getting a pay increase, (I know you guys don’t like using the i word) while 19% of the country have lost their jobs and we are heading into a deep recession. That justification.

Sinzo

tayto lover wrote: »

What justification?

Dave is from the ranks of the self employed so hes not your typical private sector worker.

He will feel free to justify pay cuts for every worker, private or public, as long as he can make a tidy profit..

Sinzo

Dav010 wrote: »

Getting a pay increase, (I know you guys don’t like using the i word) while 19% of the country have lost their jobs and we are heading into a deep recession. That justification.

If this situation continues public sector workers will be happy with a pay freeze and hope they wont get pay cuts in the immediate future. They are practical after all. They did it before and it looks like they may have to do it again if no vaccine is found and things dont pick up again..

Summer2020

Dav010 wrote: »

Getting a pay increase, (I know you guys don’t like using the i word) while 19% of the country have lost their jobs and we are heading into a deep recession. That justification.

That 2% increase is tied into productivity and extra hours over the last number of years. You’d be ok with public sector rowing back on all the improvements to work practices etc over the last few years if the government row back on the increase.

[Deleted User]

Sinzo wrote: »

Dave is from the ranks of the self employed so hes not your typical private sector worker.

He will feel free to justify pay cuts for every worker, private or public, as long as he can make a tidy profit..

I’m afraid that’s another miss Sinzo.

Since when are the self employed not a typical private sector worker? Self employment is the embodiment of private sector enterprise.

Tidy profits for the self employed and small business is usually dependent on disposable income expenditure, so pay cuts tend to be detrimental to business. Like virtually all businesses, by profits will be down substantially this year. From a business point of view, the more people are paid, the better for me, but when all of society is effected in the way it is right now, you should not be surprised if there is resentment when PS get increases while others with far less job security have to take decreases.

[Deleted User]

Summer2020 wrote: »

That 2% increase is tied into productivity and extra hours over the last number of years. You’d be ok with public sector rowing back on all the improvements to work practices etc over the last few years if the government row back on the increase.

Was productivity and hours not a condition of you getting the increase?

tayto lover

Dav010 wrote: »

Getting a pay increase, (I know you guys don’t like using the i word) while 19% of the country have lost their jobs and we are heading into a deep recession. That justification.

Jealousy is a poor justification.
Sympathy is also a poor justification.
There will be no cuts.

GreeBo

Summer2020 wrote: »

That 2% increase is tied into productivity and extra hours over the last number of years. You’d be ok with public sector rowing back on all the improvements to work practices etc over the last few years if the government row back on the increase.

The fact that you’d be ok with the public sector returning to working in inefficient ways typifies the problem with the public service.

What do you think would happen in the private sector?

[Deleted User]

tayto lover wrote: »

Jealousy is a poor justification.
Sympathy is also a poor justification.
There will be no cuts.

While I suspect many private sector workers are jealous of PS workers, I doubt any have sympathy for you. There should be no increase.

Sinzo

Dav010 wrote: »

I’m afraid that’s another miss Sinzo.

Since when are the self employed not a typical private sector worker? Self employment is the embodiment of private sector enterprise.

Tidy profits for the self employed and small business is usually dependent on disposable income expenditure, so pay cuts tend to be detrimental to business. Like virtually all businesses, by profits will be down substantially this year. From a business point of view, the more people are paid, the better for me, but when all of society is effected in the way it is right now, you should not be surprised if there is resentment when PS get increases while others with far less job security have to take decreases.

You probably don't realise that you saying that i have made a miss doesn't actually make it true.

Self employed people are part of the private sector but my point is that you are not a typical private sector worker. That is factually correct.

You, as a self employed person are part of private enterprise. That is not the same thing as a private sector worker.

The degree to which your profits are affected depends among other things the kind of items you are selling. So your profit will depend on what you sell and what margin you put on your goods or service, amongst other things.

One factor that affects your bottom line is your pay bill. You are paying private sector workers. So when the sh1t hits the fan you will either lay off or reduce the pay of your workers.

If what you are selling is essential then you probably wont have to lay off anyone.

More disposable income in the economy tends to make you more profit. Public servants probably spend money in your business so you should appreciate the patronage.

As has been said before. The ps are ready to forgo pay restoration if the economy continues to falter and pay cuts are nothing new to them.

Political promises dont count for much when the economy is in the pits. So dont worry too much about pay increases in the forseeable future. Ironically, by hoping and pining for pay cuts you are also potentially reducing your own bottom line..

[Deleted User]

Dav010 wrote: »

Getting a pay increase, (I know you guys don’t like using the i word) while 19% of the country have lost their jobs and we are heading into a deep recession. That justification.

Again we need to ask, why? You seem to think that someone I don't know losing their job means I should take a pay cut.I already support that person, I pay prsi into a social welfare system I only have marginal access to so that this person can claim welfare until he gets back on his feet.

It truly amazes me that you somehow equate and link staff in different areas with each other's pay.

Can you show me a single example of that from the private sector? Can you show where an industries dip resulted in you taking a voluntary hit to support your brethren? Can you show me when the booming banking and construction sectors said "hang on a second, those poor lads in the dot com bubble have lost their jobs, let's all take a pay cut in solidarity"?

It's a nonsense argument. It really is.

dubrov

In fairness, in a recession all bets are off.

The public finances are likely to be shocking this time next year. There is no way the government can meet a pay increase with that scenario

[Deleted User]

GreeBo wrote: »

The fact that you’d be ok with the public sector returning to working in inefficient ways typifies the problem with the public service.

What do you think would happen in the private sector?

If the company violated a pay agreement? The staff would strike and the labor court would be called in.

GreeBo

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

If the company violated a pay agreement? The staff would strike and the labor court would be called in.

Strike in private sector?
How many private sector unions do you reckon their are?

Meanwhile back in reality, if a company couldn’t keep or increase pay (perhaps due to something like a global pandemic?) you are free to resign at any stage.

Sabella

Happy to take a pay freeze as a ps worker and I have worked hard to get into the profession within the public sector, I don’t get a big wage, I work long hours and I works with some amazing, innovative and dedicated colleagues Who really do earn their salary. I did work in the private sector previously and changed career at a later age. I must say Dave, for a self employed person I’m intrigued that you spend a hell of a lot of time on this website, hammering ps workers. My friends who are self employed don’t have the same time as yourself to be online as much . What’s your secret?

[Deleted User]

Sabella wrote: »

Happy to take a pay freeze as a ps worker and I have worked hard to get into the profession within the public sector, I don’t get a big wage, I work long hours and I works with some amazing, innovative and dedicated colleagues Who really do earn their salary. I did work in the private sector previously and changed career at a later age. I must say Dave, for a self employed person I’m intrigued that you spend a hell of a lot of time on this website, hammering ps workers. My friends who are self employed don’t have the same time as yourself to be online as much . What’s your secret?

I don’t work weekends.

Sabella, when you say long hours, how many hours per week do you work?