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The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

Zero-Cool

A thread to openly discuss the full story, thoughts, issues, leaks, etc.

Mods, feel free to close it if unnecessary or apply thread rules.

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jones

brianregan09 wrote: »

Did any one else think for a second when they doing the lodge from Abbey's point of view that they were gonna make you take control of Joel's killing

No and I'm thankful as **** for that ha would have been mental torture

gimli2112

While I don't believe I'll ever be at peace with the way the story went. This thread has helped me understand somewhat the direction the story went. I'm happy people enjoyed it. At the end of the day TLOU2 is a cautionary tale which teaches you if you're going to murder someone make sure you take out their kids as well!

RIP Joel Miller

This reminds me the only picture I took during the game was Ellie standing over his grave

Zero-Cool

I think one of the great things about this game is the amount of different ways people take it. Really shows the different thinking in people.

No matter what you thought about it, you're just fine..... unless you're one of these sad, hateful people, then you should seek professional help.

https://twitter.com/LauraBaileyVO/status/1279173199918292992?s=19

gimli2112

that's really sad on several levels

ERG89

Zero-Cool wrote: »

No matter what you thought about it, you're just fine..... unless you're one of these sad, hateful people, then you should seek professional help.

Hardly surprising. After I finished the game I went back to watch some of the takes on the leaks and I was surprised to discover the controversy did end up being Joel's death. I kept waiting for a scene that was really controversial but it never came. Then I look at people throwing their dummies out cause they essentially didn't make the same game twice. Most of the videos still had a pretty horrible comment section, I guess cause they don't care about their fanbase being "outraged". So I'm not stunned once a toxic atmosphere is created that people do start to get death threats.

Like how dumb would it be for Joel not to face repercussions for saving Ellie at the end of the first game and destroying any chance of a cure. If it wasn't Abby it would have to be someone else who knew what he did. Even if we played as Joel in this game what would we be doing? Trying to bring Ellie somewhere safe, it would have been a retread of the first game so making a sequel would have been pointless cash-in.

[Deleted User]

A side note: Do yourselves a favour and delete your Twitter

It's not good for your mental health

gimli2112

ERG89 wrote: »

Even if we played as Joel in this game what would we be doing?

After the museum they could have gone home and painted the house, tended the garden and taken the dogs for a walk. I'd have happily played.I see the sense in what you're saying and what ND did, I just would have preferred more of the same

Bad people don't always face the consequences of their actions. I'd have been happy with a happy ever after or even the end of TLOU 1 for Joel and Ellie, probably my favourite game characters of all time tbh.

Zero-Cool

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A side note: Do yourselves a favour and delete your Twitter

It's not good for your mental health

Could be said for all social media. It's great trading the positive messages she's getting in support though.

Grumpypants

The thing that gets me is when you watch stuff like Angry Joe they constantly moan about developers doing safe sequels and not taking risks.

Then ND take a risk and he goes on a 48 min rant about how they should only do safe sequels where he can go on another safe adventure with Joel.

You would swear he was a pre teen talking about Edward from Twilight not a grown man.

Nody

Grumpypants wrote: »

The thing that gets me is when you watch stuff like Angry Joe they constantly moan about developers doing safe sequels and not taking risks.

Then ND take a risk and he goes on a 48 min rant about how they should only do safe sequels where he can go on another safe adventure with Joel.

You would swear he was a pre teen talking about Edward from Twilight not a grown man.

It's like you did not bother to watch the video by the sound of it; his complaint is that the story is very poorly written, very poorly executed and that they focus on characters don't actually act as the characters they were set up in TLOU1; a very common complaint. But hey; why bother to actually listen to what he's saying when you can make **** up, right?

dzsfah2xoynme9

Well I finished it yesterday and absolutely loved it. One the best sequels I've ever played. The pacing, acting, graphics. Loved it all. I'd become so emotionally attached to abby by the end that I felt horrible when Ellie was drowning her. In the end, Joel did kill her father. I suppose I'd react the same.

Wonderful game and experience.

SMC92Ian

Deleted User wrote: »

A side note: Do yourselves a favour and delete your Twitter

It's not good for your mental health

It's not Twitter, it's fine, just choose who you follow.

[Deleted User]

No thanks it is Twitter

ERG89

Nody wrote: »

It's like you did not bother to watch the video by the sound of it; his complaint is that the story is very poorly written, very poorly executed and that they focus on characters don't actually act as the characters they were set up in TLOU1; a very common complaint. But hey; why bother to actually listen to what he's saying when you can make **** up, right?

But it all makes sense. At the end of the first game Joel saves and lies to Ellie that they had others immune. Ellie has her suspicions (which her pause in the first game showed) so goes back to the hospital to find out there wasn't any others and Joel had stopped the chance for a cure. When he confesses she can't forgive him.
Then when he gets killed and she finds those responsible she discovers its cause of Joel saving her that he was killed so she is indirectly responsible for his death and before he died they never truly made up.
She decides to leave Seattle after she kills Mel who like Dina was pregnant, she realises all she has is Dina and she needs to get her to safety. When they eventually get out of Seattle and onto the farm she is still haunted by the memories of Joel's death even after moving on from Jackson, Tommy then shows up telling her where Abby is and reminds Ellie what she wanted to make her pay. Ellie feels she has to kill her to move on from Joel but by the time she finds her Abby has been captured and a slave for months. When she is drowning her she see's Joel and its just a reminder that he ain't coming back even if Abby dies. Ellie lets Abby live like Abby left her to live earlier in the game.

I'll be honest I looked at like 5 minutes of his review and then they showed the scene where Joel dies and it was such a childish reaction to it. He had already decided he didn't like it based on the leaks.

SMC92Ian

Deleted User wrote: »

No thanks it is Twitter

I've changed who I follow and interact with and all my socials are a clean positive place. It's up to you and how you use it. People saying all sorts happened on Twitter and Reddit over this game, I don't see any of it cause I just block anything I don't like. Easy. Reddit has been a great place to discuss this game. Nice topics and points of view.

Nody

ERG89 wrote: »

I'll be honest I looked at like 5 minutes of his review and then they showed the scene where Joel dies and it was such a childish reaction to it. He had already decided he didn't like it based on the leaks.

And I've watched both the initial review and their second follow up to it in full and they do outline exactly why they disagree with the direction and give an alternative story that could have been told instead. Angry Joe gave TLOU remaster 10/10 (one of four games total that got it for the generation) and hence he is very much a fan of the series and the game play and he even praises the improvements made to for example the enemy AI in TLOU2 and the graphics.

Zero-Cool

Oh he suggested a better story? He should make his own game then. It's the army of entitled whingers who get worked up because the story didn't go the way they wanted. They should go create something themselves of they feel they can do it better.

Nody

Zero-Cool wrote: »

Oh he suggested a better story? He should make his own game then. It's the army of entitled whingers who get worked up because the story didn't go the way they wanted. They should go create something themselves of they feel they can do it better.

Or you know they can state they were not happy and outline why to give the developer feedback; an outrageous idea I know I mean it's almost like they are doing a job reviewing games and giving their opinion on them or something but that sounds completely outrageous and has never been done before the internet either.

JimBurnley

Landen Mushy Mucous wrote: »

Well I finished it yesterday and absolutely loved it. One the best sequels I've ever played. The pacing, acting, graphics. Loved it all. I'd become so emotionally attached to abby by the end that I felt horrible when Ellie was drowning her. In the end, Joel did kill her father. I suppose I'd react the same.

Wonderful game and experience.

The emotions felt towards Abby were so varied it shows what a great job ND have done in that respect. By the lodge scene I felt dirty for having controlled her in an earlier stage. Then pure hatred as you go on Ellie's revenge mission. Then mid-game there's some initial disgust that you have to control her again. But that very soon changed to an affection whilst learning her backstory and what she subsequently goes through herself in Seattle. Then there's confusion whilst fighting Ellie, but I was definitely becoming more and more in team Abby at that stage. And so I remained right to the end,which is some turnaround after the connection with Ellie in the first one and a half games

The Raging Bile Duct

Nody wrote: »

Or you know they can state they were not happy and outline why to give the developer feedback; an outrageous idea I know I mean it's almost like they are doing a job reviewing games and giving their opinion on them or something but that sounds completely outrageous and has never been done before the internet either.

Reviewers in the past might have said where a story had fallen down or the plot holes it contained but I don't think I'd have seen them write a synopsis of how the plot should have gone.

Tbf, I could only make it fourteen minutes into watching that chronically unfunny dipstick and his mates before tapping out so I'm not sure if he actually did do that. But this whinging and moaning if a story doesn't go they way a certain section of the internet demands it should be is fūcking crazy.

SMC92Ian

Showed my mother the first hour and she got really into it, she wanted Joel to escape, she was straight away on his side in the hospital. She wouldn't let her die either. Then watching that death, jesus it really does stick. Ellies pleading and crying, so hard to watch.

johnny_ultimate

Finished it tonight... some thoughts.

There's a great game in The Last of Us Part 2. And I mean that literally - the components of a great game are here - there are elements that if shuffled around or given more breathing space would make perhaps the great blockbuster game of recent times.

No shortage of things to like, admire and appreciate here. Without forgetting the company's culture for crunch, Naughty Dog craft worlds of amazing fidelity - it's perhaps the most graphically impressive game yet made, and in ways that enhance the world rather than just showing off with dazzling vistas (there are some dazzling vistas). This is very frequently married with superb direction: convincing performances, visually menacing setpieces, cutscenes that have a genuine sense of pace and rhythm. It's only when you play an ND game that you realise how other big AAA studios shoot for the same hoops, but these are the only ones who truly, consistently land it it.

When you're sneaking through a perilous underground tunnel, illuminated only be eerie red light, and an horrific battle is playing out between two enemy factions... these are the moments when it feels like the full potential of the Naughty Dog house gameplay has been reached. These are encounters that feel unique, dynamic and a little bit terrifying. They're clearly heavily authored, but they don't feel that way - as I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there was one particular encounter when I was actually taken aback to realise it was scripted, so convincing was the illusion. There are quite a few encounters like this spread throughout the game, often preceded by long build ups (the hospital basement stands out, with a suitably repugnant reveal). And god it's great that so much time is spent on the 'interactive story' moments - the long stretches without gameplay designed to explore character. Naughty Dog have doubled down on these in recent games, and do so again here. The overt homages to the likes of Gone Home (where a particularly risque letter is yanked from your hand as you read it) hammer this home.

And yet... for the game's undeniable gameplay successes, you also spend an awful lot of time fighting grunts (not quite nameless, given their names are frequently yelled out in horror and despair) and stealthily taking down the same old clickers. And there's also so much time spent picking around increasingly similar buildings - mostly finding disposable junk or collectibles, but occasionally a worthwhile upgrade (meaning you can't really just ignore the exploration and push on). The effect is that much of the game feels rote and over-extended - the game would lose nothing at all if a good dozen of the more generic encounters were left on the cutting room floor.

The endless combat also complicates the storytelling in messy ways - sometimes rewarding, sometimes frustrating. Obviously this game goes to extreme lengths to underline our complicity in Ellie and Abby's more horrific deeds - but it's also a game that has a very silly death toll yet expects us to feel particular horror when named characters meet gruesome ends. Since the player's main interactions in the world are shoot / punch / shank, and the mechanics have been so tightly honed to be exciting and thrilling... it becomes numbing when there's so bloody much of it. Again, Naughty Dog have bent over backwards to emphasise that our violent deeds are horrific - but in doing so they've highlighted and recommitted to the profound limits of this particular style of game design. Other games have done similar things, but this is the ultimate, all-in game about video game violence - shining a light on its own stubborn failings in the meantime.

That said, I really dig the dual perspective structure of the game. Again, both sides would be far more effective if they were properly edited down, but especially towards the climaxes of Abby and Ellie's respective chapters this is a great, meaty piece of pulpy genre fiction - subtle as a brick, but an admirably brutal slice of moral murkiness. Individual relationships are very well realised - Ellie & Dina and Abby & Lev in particular. It also feels like a true, considered follow-up on the first game - the main focus of TLOU2 feels to me like a perfectly logical, sensible continuation of the selfish act that ended part one. The emotional consequences of Joel's act spiralling out of all control - if ever there was to be a TLOU sequel, that in hindsight really seems like the way it had to go.

THAT said, there are some bizarre choices. The game absolutely does not nail the landing - it adds a lengthy, RDR-esque epilogue at the end in a bid to achieve some sort of profundity, but falls flat in that task. The random cartoonishly evil new faction of bad guys (and yes, that's all they are - a weird choice after a game that tried, not always successfully, to humanise opponents) adds nothing, and there's nothing that couldn't have been handled in a tighter, smarter way closer to the actual emotional and thematic climax of the game. It aims for poetic, but fumbles. It's also weirdly simplistic - the idyllic farm life is almost farcically clichéd, while it feels deeply off to me that Ellie would be so haunted by Joel's death but not at all (at least visibly) by the truly horrific deeds she committed during her time in Seattle.

The placement of some pivotal flashback sequences is very strange indeed. I have no general problems with flashbacks the way they're handled - indeed, some of the best moments of the game are the flashbacks. But there are a few essential ones - namely the dance sequence and Joel & Ellie's final interaction - that show up way, way too late. These are really, really good scenes - but they hold back vital motivational insights as a sort of dramatic tease. This is in essence a game that holds back basic character details as big dramatic revelations, which is certainly something that could work but here IMO misses the mark. This is something which ran through the game's marketing, too: treating basic story context and setup as 'spoilers', as opposed to, well, basic story context. As is, IMO the insights come too late to allow us time to consider and explore what they mean for Ellie's journey in particular - it's what we needed to know 20 hours ago. This is what I'm getting at when I suggest there's a great game in here - in terms of exploring the characters, these scenes are great! It just doesn't feel like they're in the right place to me.

And that's where I guess I ended up with this game. It's far too long, although in a different way to the last AAA game I played, FF7 Remake (this game at least has the moment-to-moment pacing pretty right). It is often brilliant and often frustrating. If Uncharted 4 felt like the Naughty Dog formula pushed to breaking point, this is the levee breaking - an onslaught of everything they do so well, and their stubborn refusal to break way from a creatively restrictive action game formula. It is a game of incredible highs, and lows that are just sorta... boring? It deserves admiration for some of its braver choices, and criticism for the parts that feel half-baked and under-explored. It is IMO a must-play, but not because it is some definitive masterpiece of the medium - instead it's the biggest, messiest case study of AAA gaming at its lavish best while also highlighting the inescapable limitations and creative dead-ends of this school of quote unquote cinematic game design.

Zero-Cool

Don't mind all that bollix, were you #TeamEllie or #TeamAbby ????

leggo

Zero-Cool wrote: »

Don't mind all that bollix, were you #TeamEllie or #TeamAbby ????

Team Abby by the end tbh. I felt the same as most people when I took over as her initially, but then the Lev story dragged me in and the battle through the warzone was thrilling. She’s also way more fun to play with because, like Joel vs Ellie in the first one, she’s actually trained and competent in battle so you’re not constantly trying to think of workarounds. It feels good to just walk up and be able to have fist fights sometimes (and the momentum feature with Abby was excellent for this), Ellie constantly gets the **** kicked out of her in these with her crappy little knife. I get what people are saying about Ellie showing remorse during her worst moments and Abby doubling down, but by the very end they’d completely flipped in that regard and made their choices for who they wanted to be going forward, so that’s where I made my mind up.

I also really enjoyed, in hindsight, how when I was Abby fighting Ellie I really didn’t want to kill her, then feeling the exact opposite at the end of the game. That’s when I twigged that it was exactly what ND wanted me to feel and they’d had me all along, even when I had reservations. Stuff like killing the dogs is a good example of that: I was like “you sick ****s why are you making me do this?!” initially until Abby started playing with Alice and I twigged they didn’t just have a hard on for murdering animals. The Resident Evil 2 B-game element is also a favourite of mine, so I enjoyed here now whichever game you were in the other side felt like the most psychopathic enemy going. Tommy, for example: in Ellie’s game he’s so sympathetic and relatable, then he’s this cold blooded, silent, psychopathic sniper to be feared when you encounter him in Abby’s.

Huge fan of it all personally, and I think as it settles more will come over to that way of thinking. It reminds me a lot of The Sopranos ending where people saw it as a lazy cop out at first but then as time went on realised the detail and intricacy that went into it and how that was actually the only way they could’ve ended a show like that.

Bigmac1euro

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I played on a mix of hard and survival

Survival+ is actually harder than survival to note

Not really,
I’m playing it now. I beat survivor without changing the difficulty at any stage.

Survivor plus let’s you carry your upgrades from first playthrough.
So far it seems easier with all the extra abilities.
Also my knowledge from first play through I now know all the difficult parts and what way to handle them.
This will be far easier I reckon.

Bigmac1euro

Whilst I can see ND making you/forcing you to like Abbey I still ament a fan though her part is arguably better for gameplay I’m still team Ellie all the way.
This is Ellie’s story...

gimli2112

There's lot's of things in the world I don't understand, the far right, Antifa and now Team Abby. Dear Lord!

mrkiscool2

Zero-Cool wrote: »

Oh he suggested a better story? He should make his own game then. It's the army of entitled whingers who get worked up because the story didn't go the way they wanted. They should go create something themselves of they feel they can do it better.

This is such a stupid argument. Jim Sterling said it best. He knows he can't make video games or wouldn't make a good one, but that doesn't make his criticism any less valid. By your own definition if you have ever thought of how to improve on any story ever you should have done so in some medium. That argument is just a way to actually avoid engaging in any level of critic or literary thinking.

Zero-Cool

Ah, I'm just anti shouty angry YouTubers in general so i guess I'm biased.

[Deleted User]

If you can remember Uncharted Lost Legacy

A mission pack to an extent to Uncharted 4

A much more condensed, focused game than 4 ever was

It's shorter also and flows so much better

I'd love if they considered something like that here and focused on Tommy and Joel for the few years previous and they could break into the breakdown in the relationship between Joel and Ellie properly

Theh could also add some backstory to Tommy and his Wife and how there relationship ended up the way it did