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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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Sinzo

addaword wrote: »

Funny how those whose average salary is a lot higher than the private sector average salary, and who have greater security and a much better pension to look forward to, will say that " Rises in the cost of living surprisingly affect us as well".

Reminds me of the politician, who also depends on the taxpayer for his wages, complained about how expensive it was to run three houses.

Add a word,
Can you please tell me what you propose is the "final solution" to the problem of the ubiquitous public service gravy train..
Specifically, should numbers be cut, should pay be reduced and by what percentage ?
Should they all be forced to sell off at least one of their holiday homes each and should they be forced to pay their housekeepers and servants the average industrial wage?

[Deleted User]

cms88 wrote: »

Why then are they regulerly going on strike?

They rarely go on strike.

Some work to rule occasionally, mostly teachers.

Majority of strikes are private sector. Majority of unions are private sector.

Do try and at least read some of the thread old chum, it's already been discussed.

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

There's a falsehood out there that the national debt pile we accumulated during the crash is down to the bank bailout.

In actual fact, the vast majority of it
, 80%-ish, is the borrowing we undertook 2009-2014 to close the gap between what we take in on tax versus what we spend on salaries, welfare, capital spend etc.

The crash was in 2008. We went broke overnight and needed an immediate bail out. Most of the public funds were flushed into failed private banks which had been cooking the books.

Christ Almighty, the efforts people will go through trying to prove a falsehood

addaword

WAW wrote: »

Rank and file public sector workers who make up the majority earn peanuts ...

Define peanuts. People have different perspectives of peanuts. The politician from Mayo who famously claimed on the Late Late how difficult it was to run three houses on a salary of 140k or whatever thought he was on peanuts. Some of people on the average public sector income of over 50k probably think 50k is peanuts. Yet many people would love to earn 50 k a year, in a secure pensionable job.

[Deleted User]

156 pages now addaworld. Fair play, your not afraid of being shamed that's for sure.

Most people would have taken the hint after getting banned from a thread for reposting the same ****e over and over and linking to the same tired article while ignoring valid counter arguments and questions.

addaword

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

156 pages now addaworld. Fair play, your not afraid of being shamed that's for sure.

Most people would have taken the hint after getting banned from a thread for reposting the same ****e over and over and linking to the same tired article while ignoring valid counter arguments and questions.

Not surprising you attack the poster when you lost the argument.

kippy

addaword wrote: »

Define peanuts. People have different perspectives of peanuts. The politician from Mayo who famously claimed on the Late Late how difficult it was to run three houses on a salary of 140k or whatever thought he was on peanuts. Some of people on the average public sector income of over 50k probably think 50k is peanuts. Yet many people would love to earn 50 k a year, in a secure pensionable job.

Many people would, and many people can, many more cannot. Whats the crux of your argument here?
What would you prefer the average public sector salary to be?

[Deleted User]

kippy wrote: »

Many people would, and many people can, many more cannot. Whats the crux of your argument here?
What would you prefer the average public sector salary to be?

Less than him.

addaword

kippy wrote: »

What would you prefer the average public sector salary to be?

In Germany and UK average public sector earnings are close to average private sector earnings, as pointed out before by others. Here they are much higher.

WAW

addaword wrote: »

Define peanuts. People have different perspectives of peanuts. The politician from Mayo who famously claimed on the Late Late how difficult it was to run three houses on a salary of 140k or whatever thought he was on peanuts. Some of people on the average public sector income of over 50k probably think 50k is peanuts. Yet many people would love to earn 50 k a year, in a secure pensionable job.

What are you on about? The top point of CO and EO scales don't even reach €50,000! Up until very recently, the EO starting salary ( a managerial position) was about €28k - it is €30k snce last year. The COs started at €23k that's gone up to €24k since pay restoration.

Yes, there are plenty jobs that are at €50k in public sector but loads below it. Unlike the professions in public sector which gain additional allowances for extra qualifications, clerical/administrive positions in CS don't even though a huge amount of COs and EOs have degrees and other qualifications that they are using in their jobs.

ParkRunner

Averages are useless as a comparative tool where the same thing is not being compared. Different sectors of the public and private sector will have higher or lower averages depending on the role, number of employees, qualifications required for the role, working hours, level of professionalism/ responsibility.

A bunch of private sector workers in IT will on average earn more than a civil servant, as will a bunch of medical professionals earn more than retail workers.

Taking the private sector as a whole and comparing it with the public sector is of no use to forward an argument.

cms88

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

They rarely go on strike.

Some work to rule occasionally, mostly teachers.

Majority of strikes are private sector. Majority of unions are private sector.

Do try and at least read some of the thread old chum, it's already been discussed.

Really?

In recent years we've had teachers, bus and rail workers, nurses. They all priviate sector?

Also most of the unions who have been moaring lately are public ones. So maybe it's you who need to keep up.

Sinzo

addaword wrote: »

In Germany and UK average public sector earnings are close to average private sector earnings, as pointed out before by others. Here they are much higher.

Just as you were disingenuous yesterday about a 60% rise in Public Sector pay;
claiming there was a 60% increase during the Celtic Tiger when, in fact, it was more 24% general pay increases
& bench marking increases - aimed to bring public sector workers pay more in line with the private sector at the time (which was out of control) in order to retain staff from taking higher paid jobs in the private sector at the time

you are now trying to compare us to Germany and the UK. This is not an easy comparison as there are a myriad of different factors involved.

I will ask you a simple question:
Should the public service be paid on average, the equivalent of the average industrial wage?? Shold a nurse or a Garda be on the average industrial wage or are they more valuable to society??
Should a clerical officer (the biggest co-hort by far of any grade of the civil service payroll be on the average industrial wage? Are they not worth more than the average industrial wage?
What exactly would you suggest?

[Deleted User]

noodler wrote: »

There have been alot of sectoral strikes in the public Sector since 2009.

And, obviously, a helluva lot more industrial actions again.

I said Civil Service. As I said, the PS is a very broad church.
Would you disagree that nurses are underpaid?

EndaHonesty

Do not believe Sinzo's lies...

Pay - Irish Public Service 2001-2006: Salaries up 59%; Payroll up 18% - 38,000 additional workers and Pensions up 81.3%: Average industrial wage rise in the period was 19%

Irish public service salaries have risen by 59% in the past five years and the payroll has expanded by 38,000 extra staff.

Increases in public sector over the period due to general rounds total €2,479m (or 24.3%), “special” pay increases (primarily Benchmarking) total €1,328m (or 13%), and other factors (such as extra numbers) total €2,193m (or 21.6%).

The increase in the average industrial wage for a private sector male worker in the period 2001-2005, was 19%.

The Exchequer’s annual wages and pensions bill increased sharply from €10.2 billion in 2001 to €16.2bn last year, with what has been termed "benchmarking" accounting for up to €1.32bn of the rise.

The number of public servants grew by 38,760, or 18%, since 2001 to 257,013 last January.

The education sector saw the biggest increase with pay costs rising by 65%. Health sector pay surged by 63% in the period, civil service salaries rose 48% and in the security sector they rose by 34.8%.

The average weekly earnings for non-health service public sector workers stood at €848 last September, according to the CSO.

This was above the €754 for the banking and insurance sector and €579 for industrial workers.

Fine Gael finance spokesman Richard Bruton insisted taxpayers were not getting value for money.

“Salaries have increased greatly, but there has been no quid pro quo for the taxpayer because ministers did not build the necessary reforms into the benchmarking structure,” he said.

http://www.finfacts.ie/celtictigereconomyireland.htm#Pay_-_Irish_Public_Service_2001-2006

EndaHonesty

This is an IMF report.

https://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2012/06/1662012-imf-report-on-ireland-public.html

"During 2000–08, the gross exchequer pay bill rose 118 percent in nominal terms, driven by staff numbers rising 35 percent and average pay increases of 61 percent.

In other words, public sector compensation costs rose faster than GDP and GNP growth during the boom.

Not only our public sector remuneration rose above that of the EA11 average, but it has done so during the period when public services delivered to the population actually contracted due to previous privatizations and the expansion of private services substitutes (e.g in education and health, as well as transport etc).

The full report available here.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2012/cr12265.pdf

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

Funny how those whose average salary is a lot higher than the private sector average salary, and who have greater security and a much better pension to look forward to, will say that " Rises in the cost of living surprisingly affect us as well".

Reminds me of the politician, who also depends on the taxpayer for his wages, complained about how expensive it was to run three houses.

Yes my salary is so high that I'm reliant on FIS payments to come up to near what the state says I should be earning with a family.
A payment by the way that's available to all workers.
If I was paid the proper salary, the state would be better off as I'd also be taxed on it.

As for pension. My pension won't be much more than social welfare pension. So much for a better pension.

You're talking out of your hat again as usual.

barneystinson

ParkRunner wrote: »

Averages are useless as a comparative tool where the same thing is not being compared. Different sectors of the public and private sector will have higher or lower averages depending on the role, number of employees, qualifications required for the role, working hours, level of professionalism/ responsibility.

A bunch of private sector workers in IT will on average earn more than a civil servant, as will a bunch of medical professionals earn more than retail workers.

Taking the private sector as a whole and comparing it with the public sector is of no use to forward an argument.

I would love to know how many times this has been explained on this thread, and all its predecessors. The mental gymnastics, pigheadedness, and / or just downright stupidity required to not understand this basic fact, is remarkable.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

In Germany and UK average public sector earnings are close to average private sector earnings, as pointed out before by others. Here they are much higher.

So a doctor/radiographer etc should earn the same as average private sector earnings?

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Do not believe Sinzo's lies...

http://www.finfacts.ie/celtictigereconomyireland.htm#Pay_-_Irish_Public_Service_2001-2006

Well Enda, I think that you are quite biased in your approach to statistics.
How are you coming up with a 59% increase from only 2001 to 2006?
An average Clerical Officer in the Civil Service, by far the biggest cohort in that service, rose by 38% between 2001 and 2008. If you look at the pay scales in the Civil Service you will see that to be the case.
The average clerical officer takes 18 years to rise from ca. €24000 per annum to ca. €37,000. After 9 years of service they are on ca. €30,000.

As I said, you use finfacts and other sources to suit your agenda and flash a 60% pay increase for the public service etc. You are causally throwing in increases in spending with pay rates – they are different matters.

[Deleted User]

cms88 wrote: »

Really?

In recent years we've had teachers, bus and rail workers, nurses. They all priviate sector?

Also most of the unions who have been moaring lately are public ones. So maybe it's you who need to keep up.

Bus and rail are not public sector. The fact that you don't know that and are blaming LUAS action on the public sector tells me that you can be ignored from this point on because you haven't a clue.

Nurses didn't strike.

So.... Teachers and not even all of them. Wow! It's a surprise anything gets done with all that union unrest over the past decade

Sinzo

As I said, you use finfacts and other sources to suit your agenda and flash a 60% pay increase for the public service etc. You are causally throwing in increases in spending with pay rates – they are different matters.

In 2018 the numbers employed in the public service rose to over 323,000, back above what it was in 2008. As the economy has grown, the proportion of the workforce working in the public sector has fallen, and is currently just below 15 per cent.
Source IPA

[Deleted User]

EndaHonesty wrote: »

This is an IMF report.

https://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2012/06/1662012-imf-report-on-ireland-public.html

The full report available here.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2012/cr12265.pdf

Someone, anyone other than me try and explain to this chap that a companies overall payroll cost increases do not mean the staff got that much of raise.

Someone try and get this chap to expand his mind and look beyond the end of the Celtic tiger and maybe incorporate the 1990s?

Someone? Anyone? There's only so much stupid I can read in one day. Especially when their Thorne is a 12 year old anonymous blog that can't even stop itself being spammed

Sinzo

See graphs below Enda:

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Do not believe Sinzo's lies...

http://www.finfacts.ie/celtictigereconomyireland.htm#Pay_-_Irish_Public_Service_2001-2006

EndaHonesty wrote: »

This is an IMF report.

https://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2012/06/1662012-imf-report-on-ireland-public.html

The full report available here.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2012/cr12265.pdf

And Enda - Dishonesty
https://www.statista.com/statistics/416212/average-annual-wages-ireland-y-on-y-in-euros/

Look at that - see statistics can be used whatever way you want to slant them.
The fact is, Ireland needs public services unless of course you want to go all out capitalist and then its every dog for himself... that would be a lovely place to bring your children up in!
And I am going to hazard a guess that you are not saving peoples lives everyday or stopping criminal activity... so please give a bit of balance...
The civil service is responsible for administering the bureaucracy of the state - the EU insists on certain standards (as do the government) so you need to realize that certain standards of administration are required. Whether the rules and standards required are over the top is another debate.

EndaHonesty

CSO figures via Ronan Lyons

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/02/04/public-sector-pay-in-ireland-the-e50000-question-its-not-that-difficult/

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

CSO figures via Ronan Lyons

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/02/04/public-sector-pay-in-ireland-the-e50000-question-its-not-that-difficult/

And Ronan Lyons of course has no skin in any game.

EndaHonesty

Sinzo wrote: »

And Ronan Lyons of course has no skin in any game.

The figures are CSO figures. Are the CSO lying? :rolleyes:

kippy

EndaHonesty wrote: »

The figures are CSO figures. Are the CSO lying? :rolleyes:

Look at the caveats around the CSO figures.

EndaHonesty

kippy wrote: »

Look at the caveats around the CSO figures.

Sinzo specifically asked for CSO figures...

Sinzo wrote: »

I would also prefer statistics from the CSO...