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Child Item

Graham Linehan banned from twitter for questioning "trans ideology"

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tv-radio-web/twitter-closes-graham-linehan-account-after-trans-comment-1.4290547?mode=amp

Isn't this just censorship rather than protecting anyone?

That's what it looks like to me.

It's perfectly fine for someone like Trump to spew his hatred on the platform every day of the week but when it comes to debate on social issues action is taken.

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LLMMLL

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Here you go again.
(UK)
You cannot see the tactic of #nodebate (promoted by orgs, NGOs, media you name it) and ignore my juxtaposition that there was um, a consultation which you know, sort of um, promotes the idea of discussion.

Ireland's consultation passed me by, but then as I linked earlier, 'under the radar' was the successful lauded tactic.

At this stage, the Law Society appear to be flagging due diligence/concerns after the event and the top endocrinologist I believe.
An ideological theory which is just history repeating itself in it's tactics - every single NGO follows the same path.
The uni students of yesterday are in some grand positions now.

It didn't pass me by. It passed you by because you weren't paying attention. That is not anti-democratic. It is 100% democratic. Shocking that you would portray a public process as anti-democratic because you basically didn't hear about it.

Democracy requires active participation from citizens.

It does not mean the government comes to your door and directly gets your opinion and makes law based solely.on your opinion.

I really wish people would educate themselves on how public life works.

Annasopra

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Critical gender/queer intersectionalism.
Every womens NGO in the UK and here - funding is very important as well.
In Scotland at least, no non-Critical gender/queer intersectionalism group will ever get govt funding.
Not healthy.

Funding? I doubt its all because of funding. I think its much more thsn that. I think for many reasons Irish feminism is mostly trans inclusive.

LLMMLL

Gruffalox wrote: »

Except for the very many transwomen who SAY openly that they are not women. Tough one that. Whatcha gonna call them blighters?

I would call them whatever they want to be called. And they should still be afforded all the same rights as as all women, cis or trans.

Sir Oxman

LLMMLL wrote: »

It didn't pass me by. It passed you by because you weren't paying attention. That is not anti-democratic. It is 100% democratic. Shocking that you would portray a public process as anti-democratic because you basically didn't hear about it.

Democracy requires active participation from citizens.

It does not mean the government comes to your door and directly gets your opinion and makes law based solely.on your opinion.

I really wish people would educate themselves on how public life works.

Are you deliberately miscontruing what I posted?
If it is unclear, as you have been previously (we're all human), please let me know.

Annasopra

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Well, I know Irish feminists who have the same concerns that I do. But they fear for their livelihoods and even their safety. One did voice her concerns under her real name on Twitter and was piled on. It was horrible to witness actually because she’s a very kind person and was very measured. But okay, let’s pretend that everything is okay and everyone is happy with the situation. There are Irish women on this thread raising concerns too. We don’t count apparently.

I dont think everyone is happy with the situation no. But the vast majority of Irish women and Irish feminists and Irish womens organisations appear to be either trans inclusive/supportive or not bothered. It is a very difrerent situation here from the UK. If self ID is as problematic as many complain how come there hasnt been massive uproar?

[Deleted User]

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Yes, people are foolish to bring up the consultation because that will highlight the, as you say, lauded underhand tactics that were used there.

What tactics are you referring to, please?

LLMMLL

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Anything to fit an outcome.
:D

Nope just pointing out the manipulation of language. In the post OBD replied to the poster said "transwomen are women" which OBD changed to "trans women are equal to women".

Nobody said that because it's obviously nonsense. Transwomen are a subgroup of women just as cis women are.

KiKi III

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nope just pointing out the manipulation of language. In the post OBD replied to the poster said "transwomen are women" which OBD changed to "trans women are equal to women".

Nobody said that because it's obviously nonsense. Transwomen are a subgroup of women just as cis women are.

You can say that as many times as you want, it doesn’t make it true.

Sir Oxman

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Funding? I doubt its all because of funding. I think its much more thsn that. I think for many reasons Irish feminism is mostly trans inclusive.

Organised Irish women's groups/ngos for sure (at least outwardly)
As everywhere on earth, not every woman is a feminist or involved in women's groups.
I didn't mean all to do with funding but it is instructive that any women's group that begins now in Scotland and goes for group/charity/ngo status, must embrace the totality of the theory or zero govt pounds for them.

I would hope that wouldn't happen here.

One eyed Jack

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Are you deliberately miscontruing what I posted?
If it is unclear, as you have been previously (we're all human), please let me know.

You’re deliberately misconstruing reality. I posted the history of how the gender recognition act was introduced in Ireland. There was no “under the radar” nonsense, rather it was the Irish Government who tried to fob off their International Human Rights obligations for nearly a decade -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It didn’t occur to you at all that Linehan was lying through his teeth? Of course not.

There was no “sneaking self-ID through the back door”, it had been on the cards since 1997 when Lydia Foy lost their first legal challenge, but the Judge in the case called on the Irish Government to urgently review the matter. Lydia Foy made a second legal challenge, and in 2007 Ireland were found to be in breach of Human Rights Law, a Convention Ireland had signed up to in 2003. Government challenged the ruling and only dropped their case in 2010, announcing in 2011 that they would introduce gender recognition legislation.

Still no sign of any movement in 2013 so Foy took a THIRD legal challenge to force Government to fulfil its obligations under European Human Rights Law and the judgement in the 2007 case. It was only two years later that Government finally fulfilled their obligations under International Human Rights Law.

There was a public consultation, but you can’t claim you didn’t hear about it because you weren’t paying any attention to it in the first place. There was no sneaking anything in the back door, nor was it tied to the marriage equality referendum or any of that other nonsense about drawing as little media attention to it as possible. In reality, the media weren’t interested either and hadn’t been interested in the previous eight years it took to have the Irish Government get the finger out and fulfill their international Human Rights obligations. They sure as hell didn’t do it willingly, which is why you didn’t hear much fanfare about it.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I dont think everyone is happy with the situation no. But the vast majority of Irish women and Irish feminists and Irish womens organisations appear to be either trans inclusive/supportive or not bothered. It is a very difrerent situation here from the UK. If self ID is as problematic as many complain how come there hasnt been massive uproar?

Did you ignore the part where I said people fear for their livelihoods and even safety? Not inconsiderable things. Somebody like Rowling is well insulated. Most people are not so lucky. I’m only being so outspoken because I have little to lose at this stage.

LLMMLL

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I dont think everyone is happy with the situation no. But the vast majority of Irish women and Irish feminists and Irish womens organisations appear to be either trans inclusive/supportive or not bothered. It is a very difrerent situation here from the UK. If self ID is as problematic as many complain how come there hasnt been massive uproar?

Yes the lack of issues here can't be explained away by our small population. Anti-trans activists just don't like this point being raised.

I think the reason it's such a fraught issue in the US and UK is that public life there is more individualistic and egocentric.

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Did you ignore the part where I said people fear for their livelihoods and even safety? Not inconsiderable things. Somebody like Rowling is well insulated. Most people are not so lucky. I’m only being so outspoken because I have little to lose at this stage.

Unless your name is actually obvious desperate breakfast you weren't going to lose anything anyway.

LLMMLL

KiKi III wrote: »

You can say that as many times as you want, it doesn’t make it true.

I know that saying it doesn't make it true. But it is true.

LLMMLL

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Are you deliberately miscontruing what I posted?
If it is unclear, as you have been previously (we're all human), please let me know.

No I'm not. And I'm not misconstruing. If your post was unclear please feel free to clarify your points.

One eyed Jack

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Did you ignore the part where I said people fear for their livelihoods and even safety? Not inconsiderable things. Somebody like Rowling is well insulated. Most people are not so lucky. I’m only being so outspoken because I have little to lose at this stage.

You’re not losing anything? Nobody is losing anything. Everyone in Irish society gained more freedom that they didn’t have before the gender recognition act was introduced into Irish law. It didn’t take anything away from anyone.

Annasopra

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Did you ignore the part where I said people fear for their livelihoods and even safety? Not inconsiderable things. Somebody like Rowling is well insulated. Most people are not so lucky. I’m only being so outspoken because I have little to lose at this stage.

No. I didnt ignore that. I am observing the differences here and that in Ireland the number of terfs/people who consider themselves gender critical is really tiny and miniscule when compared to the UK. Theres a very big cultural difference.

Gruffalux

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I know, those transgender women are so inconvenient. Almost as inconvenient as detransitioners.

I hear the reddit/detrans is being swamped with horrible posts. Basically trans activists are trying to force it shut like gender crit by filling it with terrible junk. I sometimes read a few posts there, all ordinary people really struggling with the after effects of hormones or surgery that have left them very unhappy and disfigured. Thousands of them. A place where people were giving each other encouragement and advice because their hair was thinning or they had had mastectomies and regretted it, or their periods were screwed up, or they were having terrible trouble after genitals removed or just a deep voice that will never revert. And now bullies will probably silence those people so they will have less support and no one to turn to.

It will all come out in the wash though. Eventually.

Gruffalux

LLMMLL wrote: »

I know that saying it doesn't make it true. But it is true.

It. Is. Not.

suicide_circus

LLMMLL wrote: »

I know that saying it doesn't make it true. But it is true.

you must recognise that this is an ideological stance?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. I didnt ignore that. I am observing the differences here and that in Ireland the number of terfs/people who consider themselves gender critical is really tiny and miniscule when compared to the UK. Theres a very big cultural difference.

“Terfs/people”? As if there’s a distinction between those two groups. And people try to claim that TERF isn’t a dehumanising term?

Caught rapid, Joey. :pac:

The UK’s population is FAR higher. Of course there’s going to be a lot more prominent critics. And, IMO, the UK has always been stronger on sex-based rights than Ireland. Of course they are more vocal about protecting them.

There’s a cultural difference indeed - Ireland has been very slow to grant woman full rights (eg. abortion).

hatrickpatrick

LLMMLL wrote: »

I know that saying it doesn't make it true. But it is true.

In your opinion. In other peoples' opinions, it isn't true. What about this is so hard to understand?

One eyed Jack

Gruffalox wrote: »

I hear the reddit/detrans is being swamped with horrible posts. Basically trans activists are trying to force it shut like gender crit by filling it with terrible junk. I sometimes read a few posts there, all ordinary people really struggling with the after effects of hormones or surgery that have left them very unhappy and disfigured. Thousands of them. A place where people were giving each other encouragement and advice because their hair was thinning or they had had mastectomies and regretted it, or their periods were screwed up, or they were having terrible trouble after genitals removed or just a deep voice that will never revert. And now bullies will probably silence those people so they will have less support and no one to turn to.

It will all come out in the wash though. Eventually.

When was it ever the case that medical professionals could guarantee outcomes and 100% patient satisfaction? In anything there are risks involved, and the idea is to try and reduce those risks. That’s why the woman operating a private clinic that I posted about earlier had her license to practice in the UK revoked, so she moved her clinic to Spain and carried on.

There are many more people on waiting lists in the UK to avail of treatment under the NHS, and many of them aren’t willing to wait, and will avail of the services advertised by that woman. The issues involved aren’t as clear cut or black and white as you’re making out at all. Do you imagine anyone will be able to take legal action against that woman in Spanish jurisdiction if they are unsatisfied with the results of her treatment?

LLMMLL

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

In your opinion. In other peoples' opinions, it isn't true. What about this is so hard to understand?

So you're saying that people who say that trans women are not women are only expressing an opinion?

I'm actually totally fine with that. They're entitled to their opinion.

Gruffalux

One eyed Jack wrote: »

When was it ever the case that medical professionals could guarantee outcomes and 100% patient satisfaction? In anything there are risks involved, and the idea is to try and reduce those risks. That’s why the woman operating a private clinic that I posted about earlier had her license to practice in the UK revoked, so she moved her clinic to Spain and carried on.

There are many more people on waiting lists in the UK to avail of treatment under the NHS, and many of them aren’t willing to wait, and will avail of the services advertised by that woman. The issues involved aren’t as clear cut or black and white as you’re making out at all. Do you imagine anyone will be able to take legal action against that woman in Spanish jurisdiction if they are unsatisfied with the results of her treatment?

Right. Removing a healthy penis is risky alright. Removing healthy breasts from a teenager is risky alright. Shrivelling up a womb with testosterone is risky alright. Retarding the maturation of childhood frontal lobes is risky alright. But ...give a tsk tsk handwave handwave morally relativistic screed....

LLMMLL

Gruffalox wrote: »

I hear the reddit/detrans is being swamped with horrible posts. Basically trans activists are trying to force it shut like gender crit by filling it with terrible junk.

You hear? Can you post a verifying link?

suicide_circus

LLMMLL wrote: »

So you're saying that people who say that trans women are not women are only expressing an opinion?

I'm actually totally fine with that. They're entitled to their opinion.

what evidence brought you to the conclusion that transwomen are women?

hatrickpatrick

LLMMLL wrote: »

So you're saying that people who say that trans women are not women are only expressing an opinion?

I'm actually totally fine with that. They're entitled to their opinion.

Absolutely. The issue of gender and sex either being distinct entities or being synonymous is contested. I've never had an issue with that although I'd be firmly in the latter camp myself. The issue is that so many in the former camp are (a) insistent that their opinion is unquestionable and non-negotiable fact, and (b), that many of those same people are utterly vitriolic and militant about forcing this gigantic change on everybody and socially crucifying anyone who doesn't comply.

What people with views like yourself fail to admit is that this is a very new way of seeing the world which completely and totally upends very basic facts of life in many peoples' eyes. You cannot expect or demand that everyone will just agree to change these fundamental descriptions of life without question, and you certainly can't go about trying to completely f*ck up the life of anyone who does, or deny them their right to their own views.

Let me put this another way: I've yet to see an example of those who don't believe in the "gender as distinct from sex" paradigm organising boycotts and harassment campaigns to try and get somebody fired merely for disagreeing with them. But this is done routinely by the ironically-named "liberals" (in name only!) who see the whole issue as a zero sum game in which you either comply with getting on board and accepting newspeak, or you get "cancelled". That's the problem. This issue wouldn't be anywhere near as contentious as it is if so many people on your own side of the fence didn't behave this way.

EDIT: To summarise this in another way: You just stated that trans women are the same as women. I would state that this is not the case. Of the two of us, you are not going to get banned from any mainstream social media platforms or have your head or firing called for by the mob, but if I stated it under my real name, they would hunt down every aspect of my life they could get access to and try their absolute best to utterly destroy me.

That's the difference. That's why this issue is such an intense clusterf*ck of hostility. Our side didn't start that, yours did.

One eyed Jack

Gruffalox wrote: »

Right. Removing a healthy penis is risky alright. Removing healthy breasts from a teenager is risky alright. Shrivelling up a womb with testosterone is risky alright. Retarding the maturation of childhood frontal lobes is risky alright. But ...give a tsk tsk handwave handwave morally relativistic screed....

I must have repeated it a dozen times in just this thread already, but I do not support the pathologisation and medicalisation of children. I believe that medicalisation in adults too is unnecessary.

I am in complete agreement with you on some things, but just like you don’t agree with me on some things, at least I’m not trying to play the victim card.

I also disagreed with women I know who wanted to undergo breast augmentation surgery, because I believed it was unnecessary. They were unsatisfied with the results too. I’ve no doubt there are people who argue that cosmetic surgery should be banned, I’m just not one of them. I know that patients are given all the information beforehand and no guarantees of outcomes, it still wouldn’t stop them, they’ll just travel to get it done in another jurisdiction, often where they can get it done a lot cheaper than in Ireland.

It’s a massive risk, but the individual bears the responsibility of their actions. I’m just not going to rub their faces in it or use their unfortunate circumstances to say “I told you so” or “it’ll all come out in the wash” trite and meaningless soundbites to stroke my own ego like “I was right, fnarr fnarr”. That’s just spiteful and has never achieved anything for anyone.

[Deleted User]

Gruffalox wrote: »

Right. Removing a healthy penis is risky alright. Removing healthy breasts from a teenager is risky alright. Shrivelling up a womb with testosterone is risky alright. Retarding the maturation of childhood frontal lobes is risky alright. But ...give a tsk tsk handwave handwave morally relativistic screed....

Burying your head in the sand and pretending that you don't have a problem is fairly risky alright.