Random EV thoughts.....

slave1 wrote: »

I have to criticise Tesla for their lack of heat pump

Not convinced by its importance. For sure it's far more efficient than resistive heating, so it would make a big difference in a car with a tiny battery that you forgot to pre-heat, like Ioniq 28kWh. With no heat pump, your range would be so significantly low that you might not make your journey that day

In a 85-100kWh Tesla, using an extra few kWh with an inefficient heater makes feck all difference to being able to do your journey or not that day for 99.9% of its owners. It certainly would make no difference to me. If I'd had the option of a heatpump I would have paid no more than EUR100 extra for it.

slave1 wrote: »

I have to criticise Tesla for their lack of heat pump, it's standard in the Model Y, a tiny piece of equipment and will surely make it's way to future S, X and 3's sooner rather than later.

That was one of my deciding factors against the ID.3 1st, VW made a graph showing ID.3 range of 350km with a heat pump, and 290km without at 0°C. It was pretty much a consistent 60km delta between -5°C and 10°C, which probably covers us for 8 months of the year.

As a first push it's not that bad, the electric premium is too high at around €6,000, giving it a rough cost parity as the end of year 5.
If you look at the power to weight ration, the e208 (65.4 W/kg) comes in as more powerful than the Ioniq 28 (58.9 W/kg), which didn't feel like any kind of slouch.

slave1

I have to criticise Tesla for their lack of heat pump, it's standard in the Model Y, a tiny piece of equipment and will surely make it's way to future S, X and 3's sooner rather than later.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

There's a difference between being critical, and just completely missing the mark. The e208 and it's ilk are fwd supermini's. Criticising them for being small is a bit ridiculous, and they don't need extreme performance to be useful cars to a large amount of people.

My criticism is generally reserved for clear crap (like lack of thermal management) or price gouging (50k before grants for a lot of non premium EVs).

I don't disagree, liamog. But if you offer a supermini for pretty much the same price as cars a level up in spec, size and performance, then there is a problem.

I have ridiculed the price of the Renault Zoe 40 in the past. It was roughly the same price as a Hyundai Ioniq or Nissan Leaf 40. The latter have similar range, but are far better specced and also are a full class up in size. And a level up in performance.

A supermini for nearly EU30k is not going to cut it, unless it has some USP. Like hot hatch performance and near premium build quality in case of your MINI electric. The e208 would have needed to be GTI fast to justify the price tag. I have to say I am with Mike3287 there in his criticism

There's a difference between being critical, and just completely missing the mark. The e208 and it's ilk are fwd supermini's. Criticising them for being small is a bit ridiculous, and they don't need extreme performance to be useful cars to a large amount of people.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

While pretty much most of us in here are fans of the accelerated move from ICE to EVs, I feel it is also our duty to be critical of any new EV offerings. Some of us are more critical than others, but I certainly welcome the opinions of the most critical people.

Gives a bit of balance against the nearly total evangelism (and complete lack of criticism) I come across regularly on other media...

I'm not in favor of anything being enforced.
I'm a fan of the tech, thats it. Every time I change car the option of everything from 12cylinder petrols and 10 cylinder diesels down to EVs is open.

I don't think we should be enforcing change. Let the tech speak for itself.

I also agree we should be critical where needed

While pretty much most of us in here are fans of the accelerated move from ICE to EVs, I feel it is also our duty to be critical of any new EV offerings. Some of us are more critical than others, but I certainly welcome the opinions of the most critical people.

Gives a bit of balance against the nearly total evangelism (and complete lack of criticism) I come across regularly on other media...

liamog wrote: »

More choice is needed on the market, Groupe PSA are doing this, unlike some people I can look beyond my own needs and desires and see why this is good for general EV adoption and makes buying an EV "normal" decision.

Maybe it's time to grow beyond the attitude of, "I don't want it, therefore it's rubbish"

Can do better is something I should grow beyond?

Mike3287 wrote: »

I just dont understand your praise of them?

More choice is needed on the market, Groupe PSA are doing this, unlike some people I can look beyond my own needs and desires and see why this is good for general EV adoption and makes buying an EV "normal" decision.

Maybe it's time to grow beyond the attitude of, "I don't want it, therefore it's rubbish"

eagerv wrote: »

I wasn't:). Just would like to see more small, smaller battery efficient cars, for mainstream buyers.

Me too ;-)

It ain't coming from PSA right now

VW ID3 should be interesting

eagerv

Mike3287 wrote: »

Dont insult your Ioniq like that ;-)

Class car and ahead of its time all those years back

It can get the same range as those 45kWh PSA cars with its 28kWh pack :-)

I wasn't:). Just would like to see more small, smaller battery efficient cars, for mainstream buyers.

eagerv wrote: »

Does the average driver used to diesels with similar power and less torque need/want much more?

Our Ioniq IMO is a very nice drive, just a pity other manufacturers aren't producing something as efficient at a lower price point.

Dont insult your Ioniq like that ;-)

Class car and ahead of its time all those years back

It can get the same range as those 45kWh PSA cars with its 28kWh pack :-)

McGiver wrote: »

LFP?

There are others coming soon:
Li-metal-graphene hybrid
Li-S
Li-air
Graphene
Zn-air (technically a Fuel Cell not a battery)

And then:
Na-metal
K-metal

In thar order...

I'd bet more on Li-metal-graphene than LiFePO4.

They are years away

Lfp/lfmp are here now, read up on what CATL, BYD, Guayang ( VW bought ) have instore next year, its good enough to be mainstream

liamog wrote: »

Comparing a 27k PSA car with it's 45kWh usable versus a 40k Hyundai/Kia with it's 64kWh usable. Interesting that the ID.3 1st with 58kWh usable comes smack in the middle of that price range.

Not everything is about a metal box with a powerful motor. This may shock diesel Fabia owners but sometimes people buy cars for other reasons.

I just dont understand your praise of them?

No offence to PSA fans but its a lower brand of car compared to VW

Yet VW can produce a a rwd, 200bhp, 60kWh ish Golf size car with passat interior space for €34,000 and im guessing it will be pretty efficient at 120km/h as well

While PSA

Are offering

Fwd, 45kWh, 130bhp, tiny car, barely 200km @ 120km/h with dog of a motor starting at €27,000 and it covers the whole range of cars

If your happy with that ;-)

Comparing a 27k PSA car with it's 45kWh usable versus a 40k Hyundai/Kia with it's 64kWh usable. Interesting that the ID.3 1st with 58kWh usable comes smack in the middle of that price range.

Not everything is about a metal box with a powerful motor. This may shock diesel Fabia owners

but sometimes people buy cars for other reasons.

eagerv

Mike3287 wrote: »

Its better to have them at 34k and 400km like VW ID3

Difference between a 45kWh and 60kWh battery is about €2500 - €3000

Why you saying €13,000 difference?

Don't get me started on that underpowered 130bhp PSA motor either

Even Nissan have a proper 200bhp motor now

Does the average driver used to diesels with similar power and less torque need/want much more?

Our Ioniq IMO is a very nice drive, just a pity other manufacturers aren't producing something as efficient at a lower price point.

McGiver

Mike3287 wrote:

In a few years when lfp type cells with good cycle life, good energy density, charge rate ( full to empty in 20-30mins with 3c+ charging ), no fancy cooling, simple cell to pack are available at sub â‚¬70 per kWh, EV's will be unstoppable

LFP?

There are others coming soon:
Li-metal-graphene hybrid
Li-S
Li-air
Graphene
Zn-air (technically a Fuel Cell not a battery)

And then:
Na-metal
K-metal

In thar order...

I'd bet more on Li-metal-graphene than LiFePO4.

liamog wrote: »

Not everybody wants (or needs) to spend 40k on a daily driver. Charging infrastructure across Europe has got to the point that a 200km motorway car is more than adequate to get around. It's better to have EVs with that range starting at 27k instead of 400km range cars starting at 40k.

Its better to have them at 34k and 400km like VW ID3

Difference between a 45kWh and 60kWh battery is about €2500 - €3000

Why you saying €13,000 difference?

Don't get me started on that underpowered 130bhp PSA motor either

Even Nissan have a proper 200bhp motor now

Mike3287 wrote: »

They gotta put in a 60 kWh+ battery and improve efficiency so you can get a 300-350 km range at motorway speeds like the Korean's to be taken seriously

Not everybody wants (or needs) to spend 40k on a daily driver. Charging infrastructure across Europe has got to the point that a 200km motorway car is more than adequate to get around. It's better to have EVs with that range starting at 27k instead of 400km range cars starting at 40k.

liamog wrote: »

Groupe PSA have really come out of the gate swinging. They now have available or will be out soon the following. It really shows the power of a successful platform launch (e-CMP) which launched in 2019.

Citroen e-C4
DS 3 Crossback E-Tense
Opel Corsa-e
Opel Mokka-e
Peugeot e-208
Peugeot e-2008

I think they are still concentrating on PHEVs for their bigger EMP2 platform (starting 2013), it will probably need to be updated to allow the same kind of EV as an option as they have achieved on the small side.

Giving them way too much credit Liam

What they are doing is lazy and typical autogiant behaviour, one battery and one inefficient electric motor for the whole range on the same production line as ICE vehicles

That electric motor is very inefficient at higher speeds, at 120 km/h it can barely get 200 km range, you gotta stop every 150km on road trips

PSA like Nissan need to sort themselves out and increase efficiency at motorway speed

Issuing family cars with a 45 useable kWh battery capacity is pointless or an indication that PSA want to sell PHEV's with engines, those are short range EV's.

They gotta put in a 60 kWh+ battery and improve efficiency so you can get a 300-350 km range at motorway speeds like the Korean's to be taken seriously

pdpmur

liamog wrote: »

Groupe PSA have really come out of the gate swinging. They now have available or will be out soon the following. It really shows the power of a successful platform launch (e-CMP) which launched in 2019.

Hyundai's upcoming e-GMP offerings look fairly interesting too

Groupe PSA have really come out of the gate swinging. They now have available or will be out soon the following. It really shows the power of a successful platform launch (e-CMP) which launched in 2019.

Citroen e-C4
DS 3 Crossback E-Tense
Opel Corsa-e
Opel Mokka-e
Peugeot e-208
Peugeot e-2008

I think they are still concentrating on PHEVs for their bigger EMP2 platform (starting 2013), it will probably need to be updated to allow the same kind of EV as an option as they have achieved on the small side.

ELM327 wrote: »

This is actually a great film, part of a 3 part series, which is available free on youtube.

Load of rubbish that movie imo, way too much conspiracy, NiMH cells in that GM EV never suited for EV's

Batteries weren't ready then

Too expensive, too heavy, too many problems and petrol was cheap

If no taxes on petrol/diesel and bought at 40c a litre at the pump, electric had/has no chance

Batteries are still too expensive now and they are trying damn hard, in the 90's it was never going to take off.

In a few years when lfp type cells with good cycle life, good energy density, charge rate ( full to empty in 20-30mins with 3c+ charging ), no fancy cooling, simple cell to pack are available at sub €70 per kWh, EV's will be unstoppable

Sabre Man

What was battery degradation/life like?