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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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I Am The Law

Time to bring back benchmarking.

Sinzo

I Am The Law wrote: »

Time to bring back benchmarking.

That could be a very sticky wicket...

Sinzo

cms88 wrote: »

I often wonder about the '' pay restoration'' thing with the PS. If someone new was never being paid X amount to start with how can it be restored?

There is no mystery to it. At a certain point in time (2009) ps was paid ca 13 percent more for the same or similar role. A decade or so later their pay has been basically restored to what it was then. It's not that complicated really e.g. your boss cuts your pay today by 10 percent. I think you might want him to restore it as quickly as possible..

KilOit

addaword wrote: »

There was a debate on newstalk today on Dr Kelly's 12 to 2 show. She like everyone else in Newstalk has had pay cuts. The general consensus was there should be no pay rises in the public sector when so many others had major pay cuts or worse.

Ciara i have 4 kids, both parents dead and also had covid kelly, whatever she says it isn't of any substance.

addaword

cms88 wrote: »

I often wonder about the '' pay restoration'' thing with the PS. If someone new was never being paid X amount to start with how can it be restored?

+1.
PS pay rose 60% during the Celtic tiger. The money the government was getting then was based on unsustainable property taxes, so as someone said on the radio recently why should the wages not be restored to pre boom levels if they want restoration?
A cut is inevitable, the country cannot afford current spending and is borrowing 30 billion. Not sustainable.
Most people I know in the private sector are on reduced incomes. Some have lost their jobs. Most have no pension.

Sinzo

addaword wrote: »

+1.
PS pay rose 60% during the Celtic tiger. The money the government was getting then was based on unsustainable property taxes, so as someone said on the radio recently why should the wages not be restored to pre boom levels if they want restoration?
A cut is inevitable, the country cannot afford current spending and is borrowing 30 billion. Not sustainable.
Most people I know in the private sector are on reduced incomes. Some have lost their jobs. Most have no pension.

PS pay rose by 60 percent during the Celtic Tiger? ... What a total lie.
I wish you would stop peddling utter rubbish.
You are making it up as you go..
I think you're a bit of a fantasist.
I will ask you to quote your sources - this should be interesting..
By the way, "irelands private sector workers are amongst the highest paid in the world" .... I presume that includes you!
Then again why wouldn't they be, because they live in one of the wealthiest countries in the world where the cost of living is so high.
So you have to put everything in context.
In fairness, you never give up...
I hope you are applying the same work ethic in your cushy private sector job!
Also, if you are proposing to cut public sector workers to pre noughties rates, why not ask all private sector workers, including you, to have their pay cut to pre Celtic Tiger rates too. After all, we are in serious debt. If private sector workers agreed to massive pay cuts can you imagine how great that would be for the ECONOMY!!!
Your suggestion is typical - I'm alright Jack or NIMBYism mentality.
It seems that you want a capitalist structure when it comes to you and you want a communist system for public servants.
Having said all of the above, I believe that cuts in the public sector and, unfortunately, in the private sector are inevitable down the line unless a vaccine is found soon..

EndaHonesty

Pay - Irish Public Service 2001-2006: Salaries up 59%; Payroll up 18% - 38,000 additional workers and Pensions up 81.3%: Average industrial wage rise in the period was 19%

http://www.finfacts.ie/celtictigereconomyireland.htm#Pay_-_Irish_Public_Service_2001-2006

During 2000–08, the gross exchequer pay bill rose 118 percent in nominal terms, driven by staff numbers rising 35 percent and average pay increases of 61 percent.

https://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2012/06/1662012-imf-report-on-ireland-public.html

fliball123

EndaHonesty wrote: »

http://www.finfacts.ie/celtictigereconomyireland.htm#Pay_-_Irish_Public_Service_2001-2006

https://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2012/06/1662012-imf-report-on-ireland-public.html

Jesus don't be bringing actually facts into the debate the unions will not like it and might trip over their increments

Treppen

addaword wrote: »

There was a debate on newstalk today on Dr Kelly's 12 to 2 show. She like everyone else in Newstalk has had pay cuts. The general consensus was there should be no pay rises in the public sector when so many others had major pay cuts or worse.

People go on to "debate" her , when the researcher calls them they state what they are going to say.
She's handed this statement (standard practice in radio), but she can't even play the pretend game.
She starts debating by saying "Michael you don't think there should be pay cuts" and as soon as they start speaking she cuts in and shouts them down.... Next caller. At least Pat Kenny or Joe Duffy will take you out to lunch before ***"""""*ing you

She demanded the August leaving cert be cancelled last March as we didn't have any certainty, and demanded predicted grades (did she have any relations doing leaving cert I wonder?).
Then a few weeks later she was demanding primary schools re-open ASAP no matter what, started bleeting on about unions and lazy teachers etc.

Shed drive you to drink

Treppen

addaword wrote: »

+1.
PS pay rose 60% during the Celtic tiger. The money the government was getting then was based on unsustainable property taxes, so as someone said on the radio recently why should the wages not be restored to pre boom levels if they want restoration?
A cut is inevitable, the country cannot afford current spending and is borrowing 30 billion. Not sustainable.
Most people I know in the private sector are on reduced incomes. Some have lost their jobs. Most have no pension.

Why the didn't they take out a pension?

[Deleted User]

EndaHonesty wrote: »

http://www.finfacts.ie/celtictigereconomyireland.htm#Pay_-_Irish_Public_Service_2001-2006

https://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2012/06/1662012-imf-report-on-ireland-public.html

Just to point out, the Celtic tiger didn't start in 2000 or 2001.

Those numbers reflect benchmarking kicking in as a result of stagnant public sector pay no longer being able to attract staff compared to the increases being experienced in the private sector since the early 1990s.

By 1995 the building sector had overtaken the civil service in pay and alledged job security. The security being a falsehood in the end.

Anyone that wants to can go to the Celtic tiger thread and read the lunacy that went on. It was not a one sided affair. Public and private got on on the act. At different times though which is why the addaworlds here are very specific in their time period and consistently only refer to one side.

[Deleted User]

Treppen wrote: »

Why the didn't they take out a pension?

Because because because........ The public sector

daithi7

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

....

Those numbers reflect benchmarking kicking in as a result of stagnant public sector pay no longer being able to attract staff compared to the increases being experienced in the private sector since the early 1990s.

By 1995 the building sector had overtaken the civil service in pay and alledged job security. The security being a falsehood in the end.

Ah come on, you don't really believe this falsehood, do you!?

Benchmarking was just a mechanism used by the PS unions so that gold plated pubic sector workers, who could not lose their job ever, could be paid the same as IT workers who were being a lot at the time. It was a completely opaque process and a total financial own goal by the state.

It lead to the state trying to finance these massive salary & ☆pension☆ increases with one off unsustainable property transaction taxes , which contributed to the whole property bubble and the resultant financial crisis in Ireland.

Since we've been left with PS pay close to 30% higher than equivalent private sector pay, and lunatics in the PS unions constantly screaming for ' pay restoration'. That's asking for restoration to the conditions that helped bankrupt the country in the first place.... but this seems totally lost on these self interested vested interests.

P.s. also if 'restoration' should be a goal, why should the much favoured public sector get pay restoration, while the rest of the work force are still screwed with emergency taxes such as USC , used to pay for this largesse. Imho, there should be no restoration of ps pay without restoration of lower tax levels for all workers..... that might be someway fair.

Treppen

daithi7 wrote: »

Ah come on, you don't really believe this falsehood, do you!?

Benchmarking was just a mechanism used by the PS unions so that gold plated pubic sector workers, who could not lose their job ever, could be paid the same as IT workers who were being a lot at the time. It was a completely opaque process and a total financial own goal by the state.

It lead to the state trying to finance these massive salary & ☆pension☆ increases with one off unsustainable property transaction taxes , which contributed to the whole property Bubble and financial crisis in Ireland.

Since we've been left with PS pay close to 30% higher than equivalent private sector pay, and lunatics in the PS unions constantly screaming for ' pay restoration'. That's asking for restoration to the conditions that helped bankrupt the country in the first place.... but this seems totally lost on these self interested vested interests.

P.s. also if 'restoration' should be a goal, why should the much favoured public sector get pay restoration, while the rest of the work force are still screwed with emergency taxes such as USC , to pay for this largesse. Imho, there should be no restoration of ps pay without restoration of lower tax levels for all workers.....

Ya sure, Anglo Irish Bank, TSB, BOI, AIB,110% mortgages with free boat, Property in Bulgaria was all just a Bobby Ewing.
Next you'll be saying it was the Public Sector who stopped Ireland in the 2009 world cup with their handball.

Scoundrel

daithi7 wrote: »

Ah come on, you don't really believe this falsehood, do you!?

Benchmarking was just a mechanism used by the PS unions so that gold plated pubic sector workers, who could not lose their job ever, could be paid the same as IT workers who were being a lot at the time. It was a completely opaque process and a total financial own goal by the state.

It lead to the state trying to finance these massive salary & ☆pension☆ increases with one off unsustainable property transaction taxes , which contributed to the whole property bubble and the resultant financial crisis in Ireland.

Since we've been left with PS pay close to 30% higher than equivalent private sector pay, and lunatics in the PS unions constantly screaming for ' pay restoration'. That's asking for restoration to the conditions that helped bankrupt the country in the first place.... but this seems totally lost on these self interested vested interests.

P.s. also if 'restoration' should be a goal, why should the much favoured public sector get pay restoration, while the rest of the work force are still screwed with emergency taxes such as USC , used to pay for this largesse. Imho, there should be no restoration of ps pay without restoration of lower tax levels for all workers..... that might be someway fair.

www.publicjobs.ie there you go lad live the dream.

[Deleted User]

Does this guy not realise that public sector pays more emergency tax?

That builders, developers and banks were all private?

Wow!

cal naughton

Scoundrel wrote: »

www.publicjobs.ie there you go lad live the dream.

www.monster.ie . Looking for a pay increase? There you go lad. Knock yourself out!

[Deleted User]

cal naughton wrote: »

www.monster.ie . Looking for a pay increase? There you go lad. Knock yourself out!

Do try and follow the thread lad. The public sector ain't moaning

Richard Hillman

5.5bn of our annual budget goes to NGOs. A large part of that 5.5bn go to health NGOs and is part of the health budget. If health workers get a pay reduction or pay freeze just to fund the lifestyle choices of the inner circle, there should be blood on the streets.

Sinzo

EndaHonesty wrote: »

http://www.finfacts.ie/celtictigereconomyireland.htm#Pay_-_Irish_Public_Service_2001-2006

https://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2012/06/1662012-imf-report-on-ireland-public.html

So according to these statistics, the increases in public sector over the period due to general rounds was 24% and Benchmarking was13% = Total of 37%
(In hindsight bench marking was a farce but the private sector was running away with itself too and the cost of living was rising rapidly during those years).

The increase in the average industrial wage for a male worker in the period 2001-2005, was 19%.

Apart from the benchmarking, the general pay increases were not massively greater than the rise in the average industrial wage.

37% is not the same as 60% so exaggeration is being used to make a point.

I would also prefer statistics from the CSO specifically relating to the Rate of Pay rather than General Expenditure as they are very different things and it seems that the statistic quoted above is mixing them together by throwing in an extra 21.6% for "extra numbers" - that's general expenditure and not rate of pay.

cms88

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Do try and follow the thread lad. The public sector ain't moaning

Why then are they regulerly going on strike?

noodler

Treppen wrote: »

Ya sure, Anglo Irish Bank, TSB, BOI, AIB,110% mortgages with free boat, Property in Bulgaria was all just a Bobby Ewing.
Next you'll be saying it was the Public Sector who stopped Ireland in the 2009 world cup with their handball.

There's a falsehood out there that the national debt pile we accumulated during the crash is down to the bank bailout.

In actual fact, the vast majority of it
, 80%-ish, is the borrowing we undertook 2009-2014 to close the gap between what we take in on tax versus what we spend on salaries, welfare, capital spend etc.

addaword

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

The public sector ain't moaning

That's because you are better paid, better pensioned and with more security than the private sector. And yet some of you still want a increase and moan if you do not get it.

[Deleted User]

cms88 wrote: »

Why then are they regulerly going on strike?

The PS is a very broad church. The last I can see was a threatened strike by the CS in 2009. How many private sector strikes have there been in the last 11 years?

I started 4 years ago. I was taking home 30€ more than social welfare for a family of 4. Take my costs of working out of that and I was worse off working.

noodler

SouthWesterly wrote: »

The PS is a very broad church. The last I can see was a threatened strike by the CS in 2009. How many private sector strikes have there been in the last 11 years?

I started 4 years ago. I was taking home 30€ more than social welfare for a family of 4. Take my costs of working out of that and I was worse off working.

There have been alot of sectoral strikes in the public Sector since 2009.

And, obviously, a helluva lot more industrial actions again.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

That's because you are better paid, better pensioned and with more security than the private sector. And yet some of you still want a increase and moan if you do not get it.

Rises in the cost of living surprisingly affect us as well.

addaword

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Rises in the cost of living surprisingly affect us as well.

Funny how those whose average salary is a lot higher than the private sector average salary, and who have greater security and a much better pension to look forward to, will say that " Rises in the cost of living surprisingly affect us as well".

Reminds me of the politician, who also depends on the taxpayer for his wages, complained about how expensive it was to run three houses.

History Queen

addaword wrote: »

Funny how those whose average salary is a lot higher than the private sector average salary, and who have greater security and a much better pension to look forward to, will say that " Rises in the cost of living surprisingly affect us as well".

Reminds me of the politician, who also depends on the taxpayer for his wages, complained about how expensive it was to run three houses.

Not all public sector workers have a much better pension to look forward to. Post 2013 pensions aren't anyway.

Vizzy

addaword wrote: »

Funny how those whose average salary is a lot higher than the private sector average salary, and who have greater security and a much better pension to look forward to, will say that " Rises in the cost of living surprisingly affect us as well".

Reminds me of the politician, who also depends on the taxpayer for his wages, complained about how expensive it was to run three houses.

I had heard that it is very expensive to run a house up Sligo/Mayo direction.

WAW

Rank and file public sector workers who make up the majority earn peanuts like COs and EOs. The money is shockingly bad, barely above minimum wage. Lots of well educated and experienced middle aged workers who lost their jobs due to the recession joined civil service and due to their rules, those workers got zero salary credit for years of experience and qualifications. A significant cohort. And many doing extremely busy, responsible, stressful roles.
Any of entrants in the last number of years will have a pension - to which they contribute - nothing like the so called gold plated pension some of the older public sector workers will get.
Any attempt to broadly compare and contrast public service a d private sector is idiotic because roles differ massively across all levels throughout both sectors.