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The Last of Us 2 - SPOILERS!!!

Zero-Cool

A thread to openly discuss the full story, thoughts, issues, leaks, etc.

Mods, feel free to close it if unnecessary or apply thread rules.

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BruteStock

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Nobody? I sympathised with her in the end and would actually like to see part 3 be about her and Lev. Part of me thinks Ellie's story is all done.

Would you say people mostly have a favourable opinion of Abby?

Zero-Cool

Abby spent years in training and tracking to do exactly what she did to Joel and she was justified. I love Joel and Ellie but I also love Abby and that could have only happened if the story was strong enough. If people refuse to see anything past Joel and Ellie, that's on them but the story is there to support the empathy for Abby whether anyone thinks it's forced or not.

Leroy42

BruteStock wrote: »

Well , I never mentioned anything about Eille because you can dislike both Ellie and Abby at the same time. As you said , there is no side that really comes off as better than the other.
Abby is given a decent side quest to show the player she is a good person whereas Ellie was presented as an unlikable , irrational and vengeful person. It was all was by design and it wasn't subtle.

People dislike Abby specifically for how she ended Joel. There had to be an internal conflict and a sense of remorse within Abby if the player is expected to empathise with her by the end. The lead-up to that scene had to be more thoughtful , measured and the dialogue had to be more substantial. After all , Joel had just saved her life and there was a valid reason why he killed her father.
There could have been a deep conversation between the two before Abby reluctantly mercy kills him. What we got was a line of simplistic dialogue before Abby tortures and golfs him to death.
Nobody was ever going to come around and sympathise with Abby after that. The skill and craft to make such an ambitious premise work just wan't there.

But after playing the game we know exactly why Abby acted like that. SHe and her friends traveling across the country to find Joel. The man who killed her father, plenty of their friends and colleagues, and denied the world the chance for a cure.

Him saving her would not be seen as some redeeming feature, simply a piece of luck. Mercy killing? She hated the man. Despised him, had years of pent up hatred, disgust and saw him as possibly the worst person in the world, certainly someone to blame for what is going on. Add to that the fight between the Scars and WLF, which is really only still going because the world is still the way it is and you can fully understand Abby's reasoning.

You don't have to agree but surely you can sympathize, particularly given the world they live in? How is it any different that sympathizing with Joel because he lost his daughter? Joel made the decision to save Ellie purely because of that heartbreak, he killed multiple fireflies and possibly condemned the world to forever stay in the way it is with the infected. Yet you struggle to understand why Abby would kill him?

Ellie is harder to understand. She hated Joel for the decision he made, yet when Abby killed him, and she knows very well the killing he had done in his past, all she can think of is revenge. But it seems it is more revenge because she didn't get to make her piece with Joel rather than Joel actually being killed. She mentions at one that that if the infected got Abby it wouldn't be justice, want she meant was it wouldn't be justice on her terms.

The Raging Bile Duct

BruteStock wrote: »

Nobody was ever going to come around and sympathise with Abby after that. The skill and craft to make such an ambitious premise work just wan't there.

Nobody? I sympathised with her in the end and would actually like to see part 3 be about her and Lev. Part of me thinks Ellie's story is all done.

BruteStock

Penn wrote: »

People side with Ellie because of their existing connection to Ellie and Joel, but after playing the game I'd be hard pushed to call Abby the antagonist of the story.

Well , I never mentioned anything about Eille because you can dislike both Ellie and Abby at the same time. As you said , there is no side that really comes off as better than the other.
Abby is given a decent side quest to show the player she is a good person whereas Ellie was presented as an unlikable , irrational and vengeful person. It was all was by design and it wasn't subtle.

People dislike Abby specifically for how she ended Joel. There had to be an internal conflict and a sense of remorse within Abby if the player is expected to empathise with her by the end. The lead-up to that scene had to be more thoughtful , measured and the dialogue had to be more substantial. After all , Joel had just saved her life and there was a valid reason why he killed her father.
There could have been a deep conversation between the two before Abby reluctantly mercy kills him. What we got was a line of simplistic dialogue before Abby tortures and golfs him to death.
Nobody was ever going to come around and sympathise with Abby after that. The skill and craft to make such an ambitious premise work just wan't there.

Leroy42

I thought Ellie actually went on a similar path to Joel from the 1st game. A nice person before a traumatic event who then lets that event cloud all her previous morals. She turns from the nice, jovial teenager that we knew from TLOU, into a selfish, bloodthirsty, vengeful, uncaring and emotional shut off wreck. She is willing to toss aside anybody that stands in her way. She expects everyone to do as she wants, but is unwilling to even listen to anybody else.

She continually says she loves Dina, but it seems she really loves that Dina is there for her rather than loving Dina. She continually dismissed Dinas concerns, to the point that when she hears of Dinas pregnacy she cares little for Dina and only that this causes her a problem on her quest.

Ellie becomes a pretty unlikelable person. Abby is, if you remove our attachment to Joel and Ellie, a far more likeable person. She also suffered a traumatic event, which lead her to the point where she is solely focused on revenge. She has become a soldier, trained hard to become as good as she can be, but once she gets her revenge on Joel she listens to Owen and lets Ellie live.

She then shows that again in the theatre. Somewhat like Joel, Lev allows her to open up and see that there is more to this world than simply surviving. That things can be changed. But Ellie is incapable to that.

Ellie ends up broken, alone, can't even play the guitar which was her last physial connection to Joel. She has nothing to live for. The world have beaten her down, made her a monster. Abby has moved on. She has a new live with Lev, she is done with fighting and revenge.

It is a troubling story from the players POV but we like Ellie and thought Joel might have got saved from who he had become. But Joel pays the price for decisions he made, and Ellie changes to a different person, a person with little redeeming features.

The Raging Bile Duct

Penn wrote: »

I think part of what Druckmann was doing though, was showing that Abby isn't simply the antagonist. She has an equal claim to revenge that Ellie does. Her story mirrors Ellie's in almost every way. They are each other's antagonists, the only reason we see Abby as "the antagonist" is because of our pre-existing connection to Joel.

It's about perspective. However Abby reaches a point of letting go of her desire for revenge and let Ellie go before Ellie can get to the same point. If anything, Ellie is arguably the most antagonistic of the two. Abby kills Joel and lets Tommy and Ellie live. Ellie kills all Abby's friends who stand in her way to get to Abby. Abby kills Jesse and almost kills Tommy, and has Dina and Ellie completely at her mercy, and again lets them go. Ellie still goes after her again and seeing what she's been put through since, again tries to kill her even though Abby wants to leave.

People side with Ellie because of their existing connection to Ellie and Joel, but after playing the game I'd be hard pushed to call Abby the antagonist of the story.

Abbey always had revenge as her goal - still pursuing leads when everyone else had given up - so when she finally had her chance she did it coldy and clinically. She killed Joel and no one else. Eliie's revenge is raw, visceral and immediate and it's reflected in how she takes it out on all of Abbey's friends as she makes her way to Abbey. Ellie is also dealing with the grief of losing Joel after starting to make amends towards repairing their relationship.

With Abbey and Ellie, you're seeing all aspects of the corrosive nature of revenge. Apart from the ludonarrative dissonance that you're inevitably going to get with the Naughty Dog style of game, I think the themes throughout are handled well.

gimli2112

It's all about perspective. Like that skit of the two Nazis asking each other "Are we the baddies?"

I'm quite comfortable with the side I'm on.

Penn

BruteStock wrote: »

Crafting a story that asks the player/viewer to understand the antagonists POV takes a degree of skill , nuance and even compassion. Druckmann clearly did not have it.

I think part of what Druckmann was doing though, was showing that Abby isn't simply the antagonist. She has an equal claim to revenge that Ellie does. Her story mirrors Ellie's in almost every way. They are each other's antagonists, the only reason we see Abby as "the antagonist" is because of our pre-existing connection to Joel.

It's about perspective. However Abby reaches a point of letting go of her desire for revenge and let Ellie go before Ellie can get to the same point. If anything, Ellie is arguably the most antagonistic of the two. Abby kills Joel and lets Tommy and Ellie live. Ellie kills all Abby's friends who stand in her way to get to Abby. Abby kills Jesse and almost kills Tommy, and has Dina and Ellie completely at her mercy, and again lets them go. Ellie still goes after her again and seeing what she's been put through since, again tries to kill her even though Abby wants to leave.

People side with Ellie because of their existing connection to Ellie and Joel, but after playing the game I'd be hard pushed to call Abby the antagonist of the story.

The Phantom Pain

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Just in pure gameplay terms, I really like how discernibly different Abby and Ellie are to play as. The basic gameplay doesn’t shift much at all, but Abby feels so much more capable with weapons in particular - even the fact her rifle feels like a proper, professional piece of kit makes perfect sense given her setup in life compared to Ellie’s more ramshackle, clunky toolset. Always like to see character and personality expressed through mechanics, and this is a fine, effective example of that,

I was annoyed when I first had to play as Abby but quickly got used to her more open combat approach so when I switched back to sneaky, scrappy Ellie it was weird and worst of all I felt like the game was expecting me to get into more open combat with Ellie in Santa Barbara even though her skills are not really built for it.

Zero-Cool

I was all for the tomfoolery with the trailers. I hate trailers for things but I like to see how a game/film looks so I thought it was a positive that they did the fake trailers but then I didn't decide on buying the game because of trailers.

Vicxas

I can see where people are coming from with the bait and switch but I think it worked well. It didn't take away from the game for me.

I did not enjoy playing as Abby however. She's just an unlikeable person who Naughty Dog tried to get you to empathise with.

I got her killed a lot when fighting in the theatre against Ellie.

BruteStock

The MGS2 comparison doesn't work for me. Most playing that game at the time kinda knew or had a suspicion that Iroquois Pliskin was Snake and it provided a great moment in gaming when he eventually revealed himself. Every aspect of Kojima's vision dovetailed beautifully at that point. It was a thoughtful and intricately crafted twist , unlike Joel's contrived death played for shock value.

MGS2 was also a complex and extremely intelligent piece of postmodern art. Its themes and ideas are too highfalutin and thought- provoking to be brought to film. But if TLOU2 was a movie , it would be Revenge 2019 - a basic revenge tale devoid of any depth or substance.

I think this game actually has a bit more in common with Snake Eater in terms of the main character getting destroyed early by somebody they thought was on their side. The difference here is that its almost a tear shedding moment when the player begins to understand the reasons and motive as to why The Boss betrayed them.
Crafting a story that asks the player/viewer to understand the antagonists POV takes a degree of skill , nuance and even compassion. Druckmann clearly did not have it.
But comparing his effort to Snake Eater is a tad unfair as that game is a work of genius and is arguably the greatest game ever made.

Penn

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Tbf, both Ellie and Abbey state in the game that they would sacrifice themselves for the greater good and Ellie's relationship with Joel is estranged because of what he did to save her. Joel and Ellie are only making their first, tentative steps towards reconciliation when he is murdered by Abbey.

I think the real problem with the plot is that in this Covid world, most people now have a better understanding of the complexities of creating a vaccine. That the vaccine created from Ellie's sacrifice seems completely unlikely. But that's something that really wouldn't have been an issue when writing the original TLOU.

I've always figured that it's extremely unlikely Ellie is the only one immune, but that most wouldn't know they're immune due to either not being bitten or being killed in other ways before ever finding out.

Obviously it'd be rare given how many people do get infected, but the idea that Ellie's the only one in the world never made sense to me anyway.

The Raging Bile Duct

Kirby wrote: »

I would argue trying to murder a child was what set the whole thing in motion.

Patato, Patato I guess.

Tbf, both Ellie and Abbey state in the game that they would sacrifice themselves for the greater good and Ellie's relationship with Joel is estranged because of what he did to save her. Joel and Ellie are only making their first, tentative steps towards reconciliation when he is murdered by Abbey.

I think the real problem with the plot is that in this Covid world, most people now have a better understanding of the complexities of creating a vaccine. That the vaccine created from Ellie's sacrifice seems completely unlikely. But that's something that really wouldn't have been an issue when writing the original TLOU.

Vicxas

Wow this game just keeps going. Was almost sure it was going to end on the farm but here I am traipsing around California

gimli2112

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I wouldn't call it procrastination, it's internal conflict. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do in a situation and what would actually happen if that situation became a reality - obviously the scenario in the game is never going to happen to any of us but I hope you get the point.

In terms of being pissed off that Ellie and Joel got caught in the middle of it all, that seems a tad ridiculous. It's Joel's actions that set the whole thing in motion.

I'm not trying to change your mind just explain why you're wrong!

I'm joking but the reality is a lot of this is down to preference and personal opinion. There's massive coincidences and plotholes throughout in my opinion. I'm never going to be happy with how this concludes and that's just something I have to live with.

In terms of full disclosure I must admit I have never gone on a murderous rampage of revenge myself.

Kirby

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I wouldn't call it procrastination, it's internal conflict. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do in a situation and what would actually happen if that situation became a reality - obviously the scenario in the game is never going to happen to any of us but I hope you get the point.

In terms of being pissed off that Ellie and Joel got caught in the middle of it all, that seems a tad ridiculous. It's Joel's actions that set the whole thing in motion.

I would argue trying to murder a child was what set the whole thing in motion.

Patato, Patato I guess.

The Raging Bile Duct

gimli2112 wrote: »

Druckmann called on his own experiences with violence when writing this, according to Wiki. He wanted the player to experience the thirst for revenge before finally realising the consequences of their actions. He was aware some on the team didn't like what he was doing here and how he was going about it.

My problem is I can't relate to the procrastination, the back and forth of will I won't I. I have to feel if I'd made the decision to go down this path, endured all Ellie did to get there I wouldn't change my mind, at the last second due to a sudden flashback. It just makes no sense to me. After finding her why cut her down? Just stab her if that's the intention.

Of course I'm royally pissed off that Ellie and Joel got caught in the middle of all this but that's just another issue. I think I've always not liked the story it's just I'm coming to appreciate by how much.

I wouldn't call it procrastination, it's internal conflict. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do in a situation and what would actually happen if that situation became a reality - obviously the scenario in the game is never going to happen to any of us but I hope you get the point.

In terms of being pissed off that Ellie and Joel got caught in the middle of it all, that seems a tad ridiculous. It's Joel's actions that set the whole thing in motion.

gimli2112

Found that pallet on my second run too.
I didn't think I'd spend ages pulling faces in the mirror second time round, I was wrong!

Kirby

On my second playthrough and I'm noticing a few things I missed. Notably in the museum section. I found a wooden pallet like from the first game and Ellie asks Joel to give her a ride on it. He tells her those days are long over. Gotta love self referential humour. :P

Also, remember this guy?

You can climb him!

Welcome......to Joelrassic Park! :P

I'm sure there are more touches like that I missed the first time through. Doing it on Survival+ difficulty and finding its not as daunting as I assumed it would be. Going for the platinum.

Kirby

Penn wrote: »

I doubt Ellie can pass on the infection like that. Otherwise you'd imagine even kissing would pass it on too. I'd say she was just telling the cannibal (David) that he was now infected just to distract him so she could try to escape as she wouldn't know herself at that stage whether she could infect people anyway.

She didn't know. She told David he was infected because she thought he was.

If you read her Journal, it talks of her first kiss with a girl named Kat and how she was terrified she had passed the infection on to her. She stayed awake all night checking on her and then realized she couldn't pass it on.

Thats why she knows she can't pass it on to Dina....and tells her so in the theatre. So biting Abby would be no different. She can't pass it on.

gimli2112 wrote: »

The MGS2 analogy is a good one.

Druckman has stated that MSG2 was his favourite game.....so the twist is likely an homage to that. The thing he found annoying was that you didn't play as snake at the end which is likely why you play as Ellie during Santa Barbara at the end.

Penn

Markitron wrote: »

This made perfect sense to me. When she returned home to her life with Dina she clearly had PTSD and thought killing Abby would end it and allow her some peace, that is why she left. When she cut Abby down it was with the sole purpose of fighting her to the death. She was obviously conflicted and the flashback of Joel's beaten face pushed her over the edge and they fight. Just before Abby drowns she has the flashback of her last conversation with Joel which was all about trying to forgive, this is why she doesn't kill Abby.

I'd also add in that imo, part of what drove Ellie to go after Abby again even though Abby showed she was able to walk away and move on was the fact Ellie and Joel still hadn't made up and she still hadn't forgiven him. The ice was thawing between them and she wanted to be able to forgive him, but Abby stole her chance of ever being able to get there. So Ellie's thirst for revenge is as much driven by the fact she had pushed Joel away and never got to reconcile with him.

This is a good video about the overall story too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmivMh8Dpug

gimli2112

Druckmann called on his own experiences with violence when writing this, according to Wiki. He wanted the player to experience the thirst for revenge before finally realising the consequences of their actions. He was aware some on the team didn't like what he was doing here and how he was going about it.

My problem is I can't relate to the procrastination, the back and forth of will I won't I. I have to feel if I'd made the decision to go down this path, endured all Ellie did to get there I wouldn't change my mind, at the last second due to a sudden flashback. It just makes no sense to me. After finding her why cut her down? Just stab her if that's the intention.

Of course I'm royally pissed off that Ellie and Joel got caught in the middle of all this but that's just another issue. I think I've always not liked the story it's just I'm coming to appreciate by how much.

Markitron

gimli2112 wrote: »

It makes no sense on various levels. The dual revenge scenarios, fine but the fact Ellie gets a reasonable outcome, is relatively happy and sets off on a third revenge trip is jarring. Not only that but after going through hell to find Abby saves her, changes her mind again and fights to the death, changes her mind again and lets her live.

This made perfect sense to me. When she returned home to her life with Dina she clearly had PTSD and thought killing Abby would end it and allow her some peace, that is why she left. When she cut Abby down it was with the sole purpose of fighting her to the death. She was obviously conflicted and the flashback of Joel's beaten face pushed her over the edge and they fight. Just before Abby drowns she has the flashback of her last conversation with Joel which was all about trying to forgive, this is why she doesn't kill Abby.

gimli2112

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

I made it five minutes into that video before giving up.

What's the difficult position that you're in?

I am coming to the conclusion I don't like the game, particulalry as I trudge towards the platinum. This is difficult for me as the first one was one of my favourites. Fair enough this may be a large part of the problem but it's not changing the fact I don't like 2.
My opinion (and it's only an opinion) is the story is absolute thrash. It makes no sense on various levels. The dual revenge scenarios, fine but the fact Ellie gets a reasonable outcome, is relatively happy and sets off on a third revenge trip is jarring. Not only that but after going through hell to find Abby saves her, changes her mind again and fights to the death, changes her mind again and lets her live.

The false marketing, specifically making Joel younger in clips grates on me.

The simple tricks they use to make you feel empathy with Abby. Playing with her dog twice, a dog Ellie kills in a brutal fashion. Saving the fcuking Zebra. Abby good Ellie bad.

I thought all the outrage was down to neanderthals who had a problem with LBGT issues, misogynists or some other equally less appealing group to be in. I do think a lot of this has been carefully orchestrated by ND and their supporters to detract from some very valid criticisms of the game.

My main problem is I just felt bad after completing it, like really down and deflated. I don't need this from my videogames I have work for this. I also don't like change I would have been quite happy with a continuation of the first one here and think the flashbacks with Joel and Ellie are absolutely fantastic.

I understand people like the story, I have read the thread here and see people enjoy different things. This is fine, it's just not me. I've since read a bit about Druckmann and quite like him. I liked how his own daughter was born during the making of TLOU and this influenced him a lot. I know he's a creative guy and good storyteller but he missed the mark with this one for me.

Zero-Cool

Loved it. ****ing loved it. Loved Ellie and Abby equally and how ND brought the 2 together, relieved both survived the story.

I had read a spoiler that Abby was trans and the surgeon Joel killed was the only one who could do her op. Also at some point, she corrects someone and says she's 'm'aam'. Were people that insecure about a muscly woman? I thought her character and build were really interesting and they never made a huge deal about it in game. Not once did i think "****ing neil trying to make me woke". Feel sad for anyone who got upset about Abby or Lev.

Story was perfect for me but I'll need to digest it and give it another playthrough.

Whatever people feel about how Joel was treated, the museum flashback was a fitting tribute as any.

The Raging Bile Duct

I really enjoyed both sides of the story. It's far from perfect but it was ambitious and not afraid to mess with player's expectations and discomfiture at certain situations. I thought all the strands tired together much better than they did in the original and I liked how they dealt with the two new factions we meet in Seattle. The game is overlong and there's parts where making your way through a load of enemies can get tiresome but don't of the set pieces really make up for it. One of the earliest ones in the red lit subway had the hairs standing up on the back of my neck.

As for the ending being too sad? Oh, come on... with the way they set up the rest of the game, it wasn't going to go out on a happy, clappy note and if it had, it would have been completely disingenuous. Hearing about that sad sack petition and all the angry YouTube videos about what way the characters should have actually acted according to their beliefs makes me wonder what would have happened if something like the Empire Strikes Back was to be released now.

The Raging Bile Duct

gimli2112 wrote: »

Watched Upper Echelon Games' review this morning and he eviscerates the story and ND choices both here and with the marketing. Has there ever been such a divisive game?
I'm a mega nerd fanboy of the first which puts me in a difficult position with it.

I made it five minutes into that video before giving up.

What's the difficult position that you're in?

The Raging Bile Duct

gimli2112 wrote: »

Part 3 for me starts with Ellie waking up and 2 was just a bad dream. There's a petition in reddit for ND to change the story. Had over 50,000 signatures last I saw.

50,000 man babies out there I see.