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Do you think the passageway at Newgrange is a recent addition

completedit

I heard the iconic passageway which lights up on the solstice was an accident that was created during the excavation of the site in the 1960's.

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Ipso

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thanks seamus, I must look into it more as it does indeed sound facinating.

Have always wondered who was the guy in Stone Age times that came up with the theory that Dec 21 was the shortest day in the year. And how did he feel then when he relaised he would have to wait another full year to confirm his theory. And how really did they pinpoint the exact shortest day compared to all the other short days, I think there is only about three minutes difference in daylight from the 21st to the 22nd so it was a remarkable achievement for them to get that spot on.

What if the following year had a rainy or cloudy day?
I wonder if it was driven by some kind of pareidolia. Where people saw patterns in things. They may have associated a good harvest with a full moon, so they wanted to get an accurate way of predicting the next one etc

buried

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Which sites are more significant?
Are there any major Irish sites that have not had much excavation or any at all?

'Queen Meabh's Cairn' atop the summit of Knocknarea in Co.Sligo is definitely one that should be looked at.

Ipso

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

Which sites are more significant?
Are there any major Irish sites that have not had much excavation or any at all?

I read that the Rathcroghan area of Roscommon was important. I think one of the reasons that Newgrange gets more publicity is that it’s situated in the historical UiNiall kingdom and they kind of came out of nowhere and created their backstories/links to ancient Ireland etc and the Tara area was given more prominence.
Anyone with more knowledge on the matter, please feel free to correct me.

Clarence Boddiker

I found the recent revelations about the incestous relations of people buried at Newgrange and the speculation that they were 'God Kings' to be absolutely fascinating.
Especially the discovery that other burials elsewhere (Sligo I think?) were related to the people in Newgrange.
Also the fact that a local hill was purportedly known as "the hill of incest" or "the hill of sin" thousands of years later and that the story of the incestuous coupling was recorded in a medieval manuscript, again thousands of years later. (Although I've seen academics of Medieval literature refute the last claim)

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/06/dna-ancient-irish-tomb-reveals-incest-and-elite-class-ruled-early-farmers

In any case stories like this can lead to flights of the imagination about things like the Tuatha De Dannan!

EmmetSpiceland

buried wrote: »

'Queen Meabh's Cairn' atop the summit of Knocknarea in Co.Sligo is definitely one that should be looked at.

It’s a nice spot to visit but if you want something “impressive”, and you’re in that neck of the woods, you’d be better off checking out Carrowmore Megalithic Cemetery.

Carrowkeel is a bit of trek but would have a passage tomb, Queen Meabh’s yoke is fine for the view, and that, but there’s not a lot going on with it.

Ipso

Regarding the incest, it may not have been restricted to that era and could have arisen again (insert Meath joke here). The Tutha De Dannan seem to be celtic gods that were personified (think the term is euhemrised), stories of new overlords gets passed along and you have a Chinese whispers snowball effect that morphs over the centuries. I think the timing is wrong as the recent story related to the era when farming was jut introduced, and you have celtic gods like Lugh (I think Lyon in France and Louden in the Netherlands are named after a similar figure) who are of a later era appear as the Tuatha De Dannan.

buried

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

It’s a nice spot to visit but if you want something “impressive”, and you’re in that neck of the woods, you’d be better off checking out Carrowmore Megalithic Cemetery.

Carrowkeel is a bit of trek but would have a passage tomb, Queen Meabh’s yoke is fine for the view, and that, but there’s not a lot going on with it.

I mean, what is inside the cairn should be looked at by professionals. Even something like radio images of what is in the cairn, or something to that effect. It's strange that there has never been the desire to do so by academics.

EmmetSpiceland

buried wrote: »

I mean, what is inside the cairn should be looked at by professionals. Even something like radio images of what is in the cairn, or something to that effect. It's strange that there has never been the desire to do so by academics.

Ah, apologies, I took you up wrong there. Yeah, it’s odd that nothing much has been done. Especially considering how accessible it is.

[Deleted User]

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thanks seamus, I must look into it more as it does indeed sound facinating.

Have always wondered who was the guy in Stone Age times that came up with the theory that Dec 21 was the shortest day in the year. And how did he feel then when he relaised he would have to wait another full year to confirm his theory. And how really did they pinpoint the exact shortest day compared to all the other short days, I think there is only about three minutes difference in daylight from the 21st to the 22nd so it was a remarkable achievement for them to get that spot on.

It wouldn't have been one guy, it would have been "discovered" in different places by different people and peoples at different times. The height of the sun in the sky is a useful proxy for the shortest day. Also building stuff took time, build the other parts, have the alignment roughly right, when the days you think it might be roll around again have a check. Note they didn't know the date, just that the sun was lower than the day before. The day that it was a bit higher was a day too late.

Muahahaha

Yeah pretty incredible how they figuered it out. I wonder did they have some sort of instrument for measuring shadows from the sun like a sundial or were they invented by the Romans?

Dravokivich

Muahahaha wrote: »

For me thats always the amazement of Newgrange, the fact that they lined it up to light up on sunrise of the shortest day of the year is remarkable.

Anyone know how they did it? I get they were an agrarian society who were conscious of the seasons and daylight but how did they work out what we now know as 21st December as being the shortest day of the year? Has there ever been any evidence of them scraping rocks with lines as a kind of rudimentary calander? Also any evidence of them observing the cycles of the moon?

Newbridge isn't all that unique. Its just one of the most well known in the country. There's quite a few sites around the country with stuff done up to align to the time of the year.

Montage of Feck

Did seem odd to me that a Neolithic tomb would have a on suite bathroom with jacuzzi alright.

Aongus Von Bismarck

When I was back on holidays in Ireland last summer we went to visit the Hill of Uisneach in Westmeath. An absolutely fascinating tour, and well worth a visit. There's no tombs, but the tour guide was extremely talented, and really brought the whole site to life with his stories and descriptions.

Quantum Erasure

not the view from newgrange but

thered be about 90 degree swing between sunrise at summer solstice and winter solstice, with the sunrise 'standing still' for maybe 5 days around the solstices

Quantum Erasure

looking out at the sky this morning I wonder how far science would have advanced if we lived under a permanently cloudy sky, never seeing the sun directly, no stars... Navigation, map making... what would a theory of gravity look like?

ILoveYourVibes

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Absolutely Kelly's interpretation was, and still is, the subject of debate and controversy.
My quibble is with the statement 'the OPW used their imagination' as if they just got the lego blocks out and said off you go Paddy, put down the shovel, we're promoting you from culvert digging for the day.

I actually think the main consideration was to make it safe for people to go inside. And to preserve it.

topper75

To what extent would their genes be connected to the average Irish person walking around Meath today? Did they get wiped out?

Edgware

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

It is recent. I remember objecting to the planning permission but the fcukers went ahead with it anyway.

The same happened in Egypt. Those damm Pharaohs and their brown envelopes got their own way. Bloody pyramids all over the shop

Edgware

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

I found the recent revelations about the incestous relations of people buried at Newgrange and the speculation that they were 'God Kings' to be absolutely fascinating.
Especially the discovery that other burials elsewhere (Sligo I think?) were related to the people in Newgrange.
Also the fact that a local hill was purportedly known as "the hill of incest" or "the hill of sin" thousands of years later and that the story of the incestuous coupling was recorded in a medieval manuscript, again thousands of years later. (Although I've seen academics of Medieval literature refute the last claim)

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/06/dna-ancient-irish-tomb-reveals-incest-and-elite-class-ruled-early-farmers

In any case stories like this can lead to flights of the imagination about things like the Tuatha De Dannan!

And I thought all that inbreeding in Navan and Kells was a recent development

Wibbs

topper75 wrote: »

To what extent would their genes be connected to the average Irish person walking around Meath today? Did they get wiped out?

IIRC they were largely replaced by later peoples. They replaced the original hunter gatherers that were here first.

topper75

Edgware wrote: »

The same happened in Egypt. Those damm Pharaohs and their brown envelopes got their own way. Bloody pyramids all over the shop

Yeah and the bould Tutankhamun - he was from a 'close' family and all. Gimpy leg to show for it.

Ipso

topper75 wrote: »

To what extent would their genes be connected to the average Irish person walking around Meath today? Did they get wiped out?

Not necessarily a case of replacement, but being out bred. If people get into a position where they control resources they can end up dominating so their genes survive more than those who were there before them.
There was another movement in the mid bronze age that ended up “solidifying” the genetic make up. There was a massive replacement of male lineages with a lesser change of the overall genetic make up. This happened throughout Europe and was part of the movement that brought the Indo European languages. Supposedly there was a new feature in burial practices, where once places like Newgrange were about the wider community, the new burial practices in the Bronze Are seemed to celebrate the ruling elite.

Ipso

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

looking out at the sky this morning I wonder how far science would have advanced if we lived under a permanently cloudy sky, never seeing the sun directly, no stars... Navigation, map making... what would a theory of gravity look like?

Carl Sagan mentioned something like this in one of his books, he said it was the sense of wonder that people had from looking at the night sky helped drive human advancements.