Public service pay cut?

talla10 wrote: »

For all entrants after 1st April 2004 they cannot retire until they are 55. So a Garda starting at 20 will now work a minimum of 35 years before he can retire.

You are correct, thank you. I'll delete the incorrect post.

talla10

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Gardai can retire on full pension after 30 years of service, so a Garda could be retired on full pension at 50.

For all entrants after 1st April 2004 they cannot retire until they are 55. So a Garda starting at 20 will now work a minimum of 35 years before he can retire.

MarkR wrote: »

It looks like the incoming government has ruled out pay cuts.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/michael-mcgrath-rules-out-austerity-as-he-takes-up-public-expenditure-ministry-1008007.html

OK.

Might there be a pay freeze during 2021, maybe 2022?

HerrKuehn

Sinzo wrote: »

I'm no expert on pensions but even if we go according to the logic in an earlier part of the discussion:
Someone quoted that 100,000 would have to be paid each year to give a Garda pension of 32,000 i.e. an extra ca. 40,000 per annum to pay for the pension
Therefore on that logic - ca. 15,000 per annum would be required to pay a pension of 12500 or almost half of the cost of the public service pension

So I would guess that almost half of the pension pot required to pay the average Garda pension would be required to finance the state pension and remember that the average pay in the public sector as a whole is significantly less than the pay and pension of a Garda.

I'm sure the real experts will come in and correct me on my back of a match box figures! There may be extra costs (and maybe exponential cost) associated with producing a higher pension payment. The experts will know about the pension pot and returns required to guarantee a guaranteed pension payment or it may all be guesswork and crossing fingers that the markets and investments will go the way they hope.

It is a bit more complicated than that. A garda can retire from 55, the state pension is paid from 66 years of age. There are all sorts of other benefits that need to be valued such as what happens when they die if their spouse is still alive etc.

kippy

Sinzo wrote: »

Watch this space - its only a matter of time especially if there is a second or a third wave that requires further lock downs. I'm not at all confident about no pay cuts in the public service:(

TBF,
There will be paycuts in the public service over the medium term. Anyone thinking otherwise is deluded.

MarkR wrote: »

It looks like the incoming government has ruled out pay cuts.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/michael-mcgrath-rules-out-austerity-as-he-takes-up-public-expenditure-ministry-1008007.html

Watch this space - its only a matter of time especially if there is a second or a third wave that requires further lock downs. I'm not at all confident about no pay cuts in the public service:(

MarkR

It looks like the incoming government has ruled out pay cuts.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/michael-mcgrath-rules-out-austerity-as-he-takes-up-public-expenditure-ministry-1008007.html

barneystinson

JimmyVik wrote: »

They will spend all day trying to work out the fund value a public sector worker would have to have to get their pension, but never work out what the fund value to give you your €12.5 per year was worth.

Don't be daft man, they won't spend all day on it! If they're anything like Addaword they simply regurgitate something they don't understand that they saw on the first link they clicked when they googled "value of pension for greedy basterds in the public sector, especially Dem guards with their free coffees", then spend days deflecting and lying about whether they actually read or understand the figures.... :pac:

JimmyVik wrote: »

Not my job
Im not a public servant. But im not a begrudger either to be fair.

I wonder how much you would have to have in a pension fund to get €12500 per year at 67.
around €350K ?

I'm no expert on pensions but even if we go according to the logic in an earlier part of the discussion:
Someone quoted that 100,000 would have to be paid each year to give a Garda pension of 32,000 i.e. an extra ca. 40,000 per annum to pay for the pension
Therefore on that logic - ca. 15,000 per annum would be required to pay a pension of 12500 or almost half of the cost of the public service pension

So I would guess that almost half of the pension pot required to pay the average Garda pension would be required to finance the state pension and remember that the average pay in the public sector as a whole is significantly less than the pay and pension of a Garda.

I'm sure the real experts will come in and correct me on my back of a match box figures! There may be extra costs (and maybe exponential cost) associated with producing a higher pension payment. The experts will know about the pension pot and returns required to guarantee a guaranteed pension payment or it may all be guesswork and crossing fingers that the markets and investments will go the way they hope.

JimmyVik

Sinzo wrote: »

When they are arguing against the public service it does not suit their argument to mention it. It is up to us as public servants to point it out.:pac:

Not my job

Im not a public servant. But im not a begrudger either to be fair.

I wonder how much you would have to have in a pension fund to get €12500 per year at 67.
around €350K ?

JimmyVik wrote: »

I never understood why nobody ever mentions this when they are complaining about the public sector pensions.
They will spend all day trying to work out the fund value a public sector worker would have to have to get their pension, but never work out what the fund value to give you your €12.5 per year was worth.

When they are arguing against the public service it does not suit their argument to mention it. It is up to us as public servants to point it out.:pac:

JimmyVik

Sinzo wrote: »

You say that defined benefits pensions are not available to most private sector workers.

That is actually not true. There is a significant DB pension available to all private sector employees - including you – it’s called the State Contributory Pension and it entitles you to ca. €12500 per annum at 67. If you have a spouse who has no income of their own OR only has an income of less than €5200 per annum then your defined pension rises to ca. €24,500 per annum. That's a pretty good deal

This is especially the case when you don't necessarily have to contribute 30 or 40 years of service. So private sector workers do have a nice DB pension and I would never begrudge you it. Do you think the government should reduce your DB pension?

I never understood why nobody ever mentions this when they are complaining about the public sector pensions.
They will spend all day trying to work out the fund value a public sector worker would have to have to get their pension, but never work out what the fund value to give you your €12.5 per year was worth.

kippy

addaword wrote: »

You are nearly as bad as barney and kippy, who actually have the audacity to complain about others who they claim do not understand averages! DB pension mean defined benefit pension, which everyone in the public service enjoys but extremely few in the private sector can get or have.

I don't complain about those that don't understand averages or are poor at reading comprehension.
I pity them.

Geuze wrote: »

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Standard-Accrual-Member-Booklet.pdf

Read page 5.

The Single Public Service Pension Scheme
(“Single Pension Scheme”) started on 1 January
2013.

If you joined the Public Service for the first time
on or after 1 January 2013 and are working in a
pensionable position, this is generally the Pension
Scheme that applies to you.

Your Scheme is a Public Service Defined Benefit
Pension Scheme. Your contributions are not
invested in the stock market and the Exchequer
supports your employer in paying your benefits
under the Scheme.

Sinzo wrote: »

That's fine, I presume you know what you are talking about. I thought so myself anyways.

Do you read the post's? An official document from Gov.ie has been linked above.

It literally says "the Scheme is a Public Service Defined Benefit Pension Scheme"

addaword wrote: »

You are nearly as bad as barney and kippy, who actually have the audacity to complain about others who they claim do not understand averages! DB pension mean defined benefit pension, which everyone in the public service enjoys but extremely few in the private sector can get or have.

You say that defined benefits pensions are not available to most private sector workers.

That is actually not true. There is a significant DB pension available to all private sector employees - including you – it’s called the State Contributory Pension and it entitles you to ca. €12500 per annum at 67. If you have a spouse who has no income of their own OR only has an income of less than €5200 per annum then your defined pension rises to ca. €24,500 per annum. That's a pretty good deal

This is especially the case when you don't necessarily have to contribute 30 or 40 years of service. So private sector workers do have a nice DB pension and I would never begrudge you it. Do you think the government should reduce your DB pension?

Until more recent years the private sector did have access to DB pensions. However, in more recent years due to the greed of private sector
insurance and pensions businesses as well as the greed of the stock markets DB has been less available to private sector workers. There are still a cadre of private sector workers, the self-employed, big business workers who still take advantage of very generous concessions by the state towards their private pension pots. However, I, unlike you, would not be inclined to generalize about all private sector workers the way you have about public sector workers.

Many private sector workers due to a myriad of reasons do genuinely struggle. For the lowest paid the State will assist with the Working Family Payment or the One Parent Family Payment or Jobseekers Allowance to part time workers or to Self-Employed people whose businesses are struggling. There are subsidies to farmers and to start-up businesses and tax concessions are also available.

And by the way, if you are paying into a private sector pension scheme I'm sure you realize that the government makes sure you get tax relief on it and encourages your employer to subsidise your private pension too.

I believe that this is what a modern democratic republic with a social conscience should do. I also believe that good public services are required for a healthy society. I believe that a decent salary should be paid to attract suitable workers. I also believe that public servants, in general do a good job and are pretty well qualified.

The public sector does have defined pension schemes for most workers. However, there have been major changes in the way that this has been operated over the last decade and more. Now, many civil servants are paying Class A contributions and so their defined pension is only half of what it used to be and the other half, just like your DB State Pension, is also paid to them.

Whether or not 75k or 90k is a huge lump sum is obviously subject to debate. It certainly doesn’t come close to the payments of some in the private sector but such a comparison would render me guilty of your approach. What kind of lump sum will you or colleagues in your organisation have when it comes to their retirement. Are you paying 8% or more of your gross income towards that lump sum and pension?

The final 18 months of my employment, should I still have a job, will be the same flat rate that took me 18 years to rise to and will remain static for the final 18 years, except for any negotiated cost of living increases which, by the way, has been static for the last 12 years until we finally got some restoration in 2019. I wonder how much of a percentage increase you got in the last 12 years? I know you’re going to say you got none because you don’t really want a nuances and truthful conversation on it. I also know you’re going to say that many people lost their jobs and believe me that is a cause of much sadness to me because I know some who have been in that boat. But just because private sector jobs are lost, it doesn’t automatically follow that public sector jobs should be lost too. There is a certain critical mass that must be maintained. Over the last decade there has been a prorate reduction if public servants relative to the increase in population and the economy.

There may be grounds for pay cuts; we were cut badly after the last recession and remained cut for the best part of a decade. We had terms and conditions reduced including a halving of sick pay entitlements, but we accepted them for the common good and, obviously, we had no option but to accept them.

You need to realise that there is a multitude of factors in any particular debate and it’s not always useful or beneficial to generalise too much.

That's fine, I presume you know what you are talking about. I thought so myself anyways.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

My kids are already well paid, in secure and pensionable jobs, when hundreds of thousands of others in the economy have fallen on tough times, through no fault of their own, over the past 3 months. For the greater good, and looking at the medium and long term, they know a pay rise would be be unjustifiable and deeply unfair.

Without hearing directly from your kids, your word is only conjecture and hearsay.
But let's penalise civil servants for something they had no control over.

Now is it the civil servants or just the Gardai?
How would taking 20€ gross off me benefit the rest of the country?
Cost of living is going up. I need to pay the bills as well as educate my kids.

Btw. I was earning a lot more in the private sector 10 years ago than I am now. I might get back to that level in another 8 years.

fliball123

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

My contract says Defines Contribution pension so I presume that makes it a DC pension.

Do you think in a few years if I show up with a print out of this thread and a copy of my contract - that they will pay me out a DB pension cos the lads on here said so?

I think you misunderstand you do contribute to it but its still DB your not paying the full cost in fact no where near the full cost of your pension

Sinzo wrote: »

I didn't realize that new entrants to the Public Service are on DC pensions since 2012 - but then, as already pointed out, there are many different permutations in such a large and diverse entity as the "public service".

All public sector workers get a Defined Benefit pension.

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

The contracts state otherwise that's what I signed so you can imagine how & why I would think that's what i am entitled to

Well then you are not a full, regular public servant.

Is your employer within the Public Service?

I didn't realize that new entrants to the Public Service are on DC pensions since 2012 - but then, as already pointed out, there are many different permutations in such a large and diverse entity as the "public service".

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

The contracts state otherwise that's what I signed so you can imagine how & why I would think that's what i am entitled to

On the contract, who does it say is your employer?

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

My contract says Defines Contribution pension so I presume that makes it a DC pension.

Do you think in a few years if I show up with a print out of this thread and a copy of my contract - that they will pay me out a DB pension cos the lads on here said so?

You will be paid the benefits you are eligible for, from your DB pension...

Where do you think your contributions are going?..

Poor_old_gill

Geuze wrote: »

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Standard-Accrual-Member-Booklet.pdf

Read page 5.

The Single Public Service Pension Scheme
(“Single Pension Scheme”) started on 1 January
2013.

If you joined the Public Service for the first time
on or after 1 January 2013 and are working in a
pensionable position, this is generally the Pension
Scheme that applies to you.

Your Scheme is a Public Service Defined Benefit
Pension Scheme. Your contributions are not
invested in the stock market and the Exchequer
supports your employer in paying your benefits
under the Scheme.

The contracts state otherwise that's what I signed so you can imagine how & why I would think that's what i am entitled to

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

My contract says Defines Contribution pension so I presume that makes it a DC pension.

Do you think in a few years if I show up with a print out of this thread and a copy of my contract - that they will pay me out a DB pension cos the lads on here said so?

If your contract says DC pension, then you must not be a regular public servant.

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Standard-Accrual-Member-Booklet.pdf

Read page 5.

The Single Public Service Pension Scheme
(“Single Pension Scheme”) started on 1 January
2013.

If you joined the Public Service for the first time
on or after 1 January 2013 and are working in a
pensionable position, this is generally the Pension
Scheme that applies to you.

Your Scheme is a Public Service Defined Benefit
Pension Scheme. Your contributions are not
invested in the stock market and the Exchequer
supports your employer in paying your benefits
under the Scheme.

Poor_old_gill

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Every PS worker gets a DB pension.

Your anger and insults do not change that simple fact.

My contract says Defines Contribution pension so I presume that makes it a DC pension.

Do you think in a few years if I show up with a print out of this thread and a copy of my contract - that they will pay me out a DB pension cos the lads on here said so?

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

It is based on contributions - thats why I get a regular contributions statement.

You are just peddling lies here mate and for no real reason

Every PS worker gets a DB pension.

Your anger and insults do not change that simple fact.