What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs wrote: »

Then go to a country that isn't White or Irish. Ireland is a White European country. 93% pale of face and go back 20 years ago and it was more like 98%. Not finding that it has a "South Asian Lens" shouldn't come as a bloody shock. Crazy notion I know. It doesn't have a Polish lens or German lens, or Latvian, or British lens either. And guess what there are more of the above list living here compared to South Asians.

Oh You racist!

[We should be adapting to their needs, and making our country less Irish to accommodate them. That's the message of it all]

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you give an example of how one might encourage another to disavow their identity?

I can't give you a correct representation of what the woman who wrote that tweet meant. She didn't go into detail. SHe did write some other things i can mention. But obviously they are not in depth. And it would be hard to go into further detail on twitter anyhow.

So i can only give you what I might personally come up with. And this might not be relevant to HER or her Indian identity.

I do know she is Hindu though.

Catholic schools don't leave room for diversity often. They sort of 'claim you'. And if you don't look Indian this is even more so.

There is this atmosphere of trying to make you just like everyone else.

Christian holidays are huge here. And so even if people are not church goers ..easter happens. In your life. You are connected.

These kind of public display of other religions are harder in smaller communities. And are sometimes even greeted with hostility. Often gradually the next generation grows up with less connection to that culture.

She says that she is judged better when she 'does not fight for the integrity of her name' I know someone who changed their name from Omar to David. It was actually because he was attacked a few times. He is a lovely guy. And he felt it would help him fit in more. This could be seen as having to disavow your identity.

She is judged as 'not bad at performing Irishness ' as an Indian.

In order to 'become Irish' she has to give up her name identity etc.

Originally Posted by Wibbs View Post
Then go to a country that isn't White or Irish. Ireland is a White European country. 93% pale of face and go back 20 years ago and it was more like 98%. Not finding that it has a "South Asian Lens" shouldn't come as a bloody shock. Crazy notion I know. It doesn't have a Polish lens or German lens, or Latvian, or British lens either. And guess what there are more of the above list living here compared to South Asians.

People end up where they end up.

The truth is Ireland might not be a first choice for some. But it's where they are and can't afford to live elsewhere. Or the opportunities are not there.

Its true what she says about the name thing. I know a lot of people who have had to change their names.

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

To be fair the tweeter shouldnt be getting abuse.

She just sounds homesick more than anything, and missing her culture - she is facing the prospect of not going home for the next while due to corona etc.

The way she has worded it just comes across a bit entitled but shes just a kid

Except that most of us here aren't interested in abusing her.. that comes out wrong, but you know what I mean (I hope). We're not rushing on to twitter to post nastiness on her account.

Her tweet is simply up for discussion within the thread... that's not abuse. I'd expect the same of anything I posted throughout my history on the Internet. She's an adult... and that comes with consequences for what is said/done on the internet.

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

To be fair the tweeter shouldnt be getting abuse.

She just sounds homesick more than anything, and missing her culture - she is facing the prospect of not going home for the next while due to corona etc.

The way she has worded it just comes across a bit entitled

True. It's more her surprise at the reaction that comes across as entitled. If I said the exact same thing in India as a White Irishman and got a load of Indians replying that I should bugger off back to Ireland then you whinging ingrate, it would not come as a shock to me. Though having some self awareness I'd not publicly post that in the first place. Then again Twitter is ground central for attention as the new currency types and the self absorbed however temporarily and the expectation of support for your wonderful insights.

olestoepoke

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It isn't our Irishness that is the issue...its whiteness.

Hang on a minute, whats wrong with our "whiteness"? Are you being racist?

dominatinMC

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I can't give you a correct representation of what the woman who wrote that tweet meant. She didn't go into detail. SHe did write some other things i can mention. But obviously they are not in depth. And it would be hard to go into further detail on twitter anyhow.

So i can only give you what I might personally come up with. And this might not be relevant to HER or her Indian identity.

I do know she is Hindu though.

Catholic schools don't leave room for diversity often. They sort of 'claim you'. And if you don't look Indian this is even more so.

There is this atmosphere of trying to make you just like everyone else.

Christian holidays are huge here. And so even if people are not church goers ..easter happens. In your life. You are connected.

These kind of public display of other religions are harder in smaller communities. And are sometimes even greeted with hostility. Often gradually the next generation grows up with less connection to that culture.

She says that she is judged better when she 'does not fight for the integrity of her name' I know someone who changed their name from Omar to David. It was actually because he was attacked a few times. He is a lovely guy. And he felt it would help him fit in more. This could be seen as having to disavow your identity.

She is judged as 'not bad at performing Irishness ' as an Indian.

In order to 'become Irish' she has to give up her name identity etc.

Wtf are you actually trying to say. Christian holidays are huge here because we are predominantly a Christian (whether practicing or not) country. Just like Islamic holidays are huge in Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, etc. Your attempts at "debate" are laughable really. Give it a rest and let this thread get on with some logical discussion.

I mean the Irish in New York try to be VERY VERY irish.

They don't hide it.

Same with the Irish in london. The irish dancing the parades etc. Same with the Irish all over the world really.

She feels the same does not go for people here .

Wibbs wrote: »

True. It's more her surprise at the reaction that comes across as entitled. If I said the exact same thing in India as a White Irishman and got a load of Indians replying that I should bugger off back to Ireland then you whinging ingrate, it would not come as a shock to me. Though having some self awareness I'd not publicly post that in the first place. Then again Twitter is ground central for attention as the new currency types and the self absorbed however temporarily and the expectation of support for your wonderful insights.

But an expression of Irish culture would not be an issue in india.

They have st pats parades. There are catholic churches.

Irish people would not have to change their name in india.

When you read her tweets she talks about people being offended at her keeping her indian name.

dominatinMC wrote: »

Wtf are you actually trying to say. Christian holidays are huge here because we are predominantly a Christian (whether practicing or not) country. Just like Islamic holidays are huge in Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, etc. Your attempts at "debate" are laughable really. Give it a rest and let this thread get on with some logical discussion.

Saudi Arabia? Iran....

Yes ...we are as culturally diverse as ..Iran. Yes ....I would love to have the cultural and religious freedom Iran has.

And I think you will find there is a ST PATS day EVERYWHERE

And Catholicism ...is celebrated in India.

She isn't a muslim she is a Hindu.

I think this might be the lense thing she was talking about.

Deleted User wrote: »

The logic behind the whole concept bothers me because it's, well, so illogical. I'm sure many Indians do involve themselves socially with Irish people, but in my own experience of Indians, both in Ireland and abroad, most of them will stick with other Indians. I can only think of one "Indian" who was different, and she was raised in Canada, not SE Asia.

Again not a shock and like I've been saying people overwhelmingly tend to want to hang out with their "own". That goes for all peoples across the planet. Hell, to to the Costa del Package Holiday and the Brits are going to British pubs, the Irish go to Irish, even the ex pats living there tend to do so in enclaves and rarely enough have any Spanish beyond "Gracias".

OK I'm going to change your post by way of illustration:

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I can't give you a correct representation of what the woman who wrote that tweet meant. She didn't go into detail. SHe did write some other things i can mention. But obviously they are not in depth. And it would be hard to go into further detail on twitter anyhow.

So i can only give you what I might personally come up with. And this might not be relevant to HER or her Irish identity.

I do know she is Catholic though.

Hindu schools don't leave room for diversity often. They sort of 'claim you'. And if you don't look Indian this is even more so.

There is this atmosphere of trying to make you just like everyone else.

Hindu holidays are huge here in India. And so even if people are not temple goers ..Diwali happens. In your life. You are connected.

These kind of public display of other religions are harder in smaller communities. And are sometimes even greeted with hostility. Often gradually the next generation grows up with less connection to that culture.

She says that she is judged better when she 'does not fight for the integrity of her name' I know someone who changed their name from David to Omar. It was actually because he was attacked a few times. He is a lovely guy. And he felt it would help him fit in more. This could be seen as having to disavow your identity.

She is judged as 'not bad at performing Indianness ' as an Irish woman.

In order to 'become Indian' she has to give up her name identity etc.

How utterly daft would that read to her if she was living in India and read an Irish persons tweet?

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

People end up where they end up.

The truth is Ireland might not be a first choice for some. But it's where they are and can't afford to live elsewhere. Or the opportunities are not there.

Then have the basic bloody manners not to crap on whatever country and culture you find yourself in. Pretty bloody simple I'd have thought.

Deleted User wrote: »

See, I find this interesting. I'm in Athlone, where there is an Ericsson campus, which has a sizable Indian/Pakistani workforce of programmers/engineers. I live nearby the company, have done some language work myself there, and often I'll see the employees walking in groups of two-three but there's never anyone not of their race with them. In fact, I can't recall seeing them mingling with white people outside of their place of employment. Very friendly at work, and will be absolutely lovely when approached by someone, but they clump together all the time.

So, this seeing Ireland through the lens of Irish culture or white people... when/how could it have happened? When do they mix with enough Irish people to really see or appreciate Ireland the way Irish people do.. or even the way white people do? Hell, I'm a little bemused to think that other people might see Ireland the way I see it.

The logic behind the whole concept bothers me because it's, well, so illogical. I'm sure many Indians do involve themselves socially with Irish people, but in my own experience of Indians, both in Ireland and abroad, most of them will stick with other Indians. I can only think of one "Indian" who was different, and she was raised in Canada, not SE Asia.

I find this an odd comment because i have many lifelong asian friends. I don't feel they clump...i do feel white people do tho.

The only thing i don't understand about her tweet is ...why she thinks her community is small here. Its actually large ....i mean compared to other communities.

She is lucky in some ways. For smaller communities it's even worse.

olestoepoke

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I mean the Irish in New York try to be VERY VERY irish.

They don't hide it.

Same with the Irish in london. The irish dancing the parades etc. Same with the Irish all over the world really.

She feels the same does not go for people here .

I lived in New York for 16 years. Yes the Irish are open about their culture and have parades and Irish bars and are very very Irish. However, the Irish community in New York have fully embraced their host nation and would never ever dream of disrespecting it in any way. I have never see an Irish flag hanging from a bar or a house without the US flag beside it.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Saudi Arabia? Iran....

Yes ...we are as culturally diverse as ..Iran. Yes ....I would love to have the cultural and religious freedom Iran has.

Wait. Hang on.

Please tell me that was an attempt at some sort of joke or "irony" American style, because if it wasn't and you are in earnest then the only conclusion I can come to is that it's a bit early in the day for strong drink.

Wibbs wrote: »

How utterly daft would that read to her if she was living in India and read an Irish persons tweet?

Then have the basic bloody manners not to crap on whatever country and culture you find yourself in. Pretty bloody simple I'd have thought.

She didn't crap on us. She was very polite and eloquent. There was no swearing no malice.

It was an opinion. Freedom of speech etc.

I can't tell you how she would read it if it were an irish person. I do know that irish people are NOT shy about expressing their identities abroad.

Far from what people have claimed here. Every country has a patrick's day etc.

olestoepoke wrote: »

I lived in New York for 16 years. Yes the Irish are open about their culture and have parades and Irish bars and are very very Irish. However, the Irish community in New York have fully embraced their host nation and would never ever dream of disrespecting it in any way. I have never see an Irish flag hanging from a bar or a house without the US flag beside it.

And it's at its core an nation and culture of immigrants. Ireland is not.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

But an expression of Irish culture would not be an issue in india.

They have st pats parades. There are catholic churches.

Irish people would not have to change their name in india.

When you read her tweets she talks about people being offended at her keeping her indian name.

I really hope you're not suggesting an Irish person in India could fit into the community more than she could here if she wanted to.

Sardonicat

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I can't give you a correct representation of what the woman who wrote that tweet meant. She didn't go into detail. SHe did write some other things i can mention. But obviously they are not in depth. And it would be hard to go into further detail on twitter anyhow.

So i can only give you what I might personally come up with. And this might not be relevant to HER or her Indian identity.

I do know she is Hindu though.

Catholic schools don't leave room for diversity often. They sort of 'claim you'. And if you don't look Indian this is even more so.

There is this atmosphere of trying to make you just like everyone else.

Christian holidays are huge here. And so even if people are not church goers ..easter happens. In your life. You are connected.

These kind of public display of other religions are harder in smaller communities. And are sometimes even greeted with hostility. Often gradually the next generation grows up with less connection to that culture.

She says that she is judged better when she 'does not fight for the integrity of her name' I know someone who changed their name from Omar to David. It was actually because he was attacked a few times. He is a lovely guy. And he felt it would help him fit in more. This could be seen as having to disavow your identity.

She is judged as 'not bad at performing Irishness ' as an Indian.

In order to 'become Irish' she has to give up her name identity etc.

Wait a minute - did you not say the problem wasn't our Irishness but our whiteness? You've just fundamentally contradicted yourself with that post.

ThunbergsAreGo

Deleted User wrote: »

Except that most of us here aren't interested in abusing her.. that comes out wrong, but you know what I mean (I hope). We're not rushing on to twitter to post nastiness on her account.

Her tweet is simply up for discussion within the thread... that's not abuse. I'd expect the same of anything I posted throughout my history on the Internet. She's an adult... and that comes with consequences for what is said/done on the internet.

I do, I meant more those rushing to post nasty comments on her Twitter.

olestoepoke wrote: »

I lived in New York for 16 years. Yes the Irish are open about their culture and have parades and Irish bars and are very very Irish. However, the Irish community in New York have fully embraced their host nation and would never ever dream of disrespecting it in any way. I have never see an Irish flag hanging from a bar or a house without the US flag beside it.

The Irish in NY are fully accepted by their country. Because its not a host country. ITS THEIR country. They are Americans. To mess with the Irish in NY is simply to mess with white Americans.

The Irish in london tho do have these issues and do express those. Irish people in london DO express similar things to her tweet.

Eric Cartman

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

But an expression of Irish culture would not be an issue in india.

They have st pats parades. There are catholic churches.

Irish people would not have to change their name in india.

When you read her tweets she talks about people being offended at her keeping her indian name.

but culture isn't just parades and churches.

can an Irish person go to Pakistan and go down to a park with 8 cans on a sunny day without getting hassled. Can we go get a bunch of pork sausages and start eating a coddle in the office canteen. Can a woman walk round with her hair uncovered, cleavage on display and not be touched or abused by the majority of men. Can I open a pub and a bookies right next to each other on almost any street I feel like.

I'm sure theres some loopholes but the majority answer is no. That isn't their culture and if I move there I would expect to live by their rules. Same applies to them coming to white countries.

Deleted User wrote: »

I really hope you're not suggesting an Irish person in India could fit into the community more than she could here if she wanted to.

In Deludoland that appears to be the case. Like the perception and bias she shows when saying Whites "clump" together more than South Asians, when no matter where you go and who you are or what background you come from people of all stripes tend to hang out together.

Wibbs wrote: »

Then have the basic bloody manners not to crap on whatever country and culture you find yourself in. Pretty bloody simple I'd have thought.

This "girl" is apparently a doctor, and so has a high level of education. Which means she's not limited to living/working in Ireland. She made the choice to live here. Just as I made the choice to live in China, which has an extremely small population of Europeans. She has options. Quite a lot of options actually... why not jump across the pond to live in London, where there is a sizable community of SE Asians?

cfuserkildare

endacl wrote: »

Hard to imagine a dish that can’t be improved by adding a dash of spice.

Good thing.

A slightly blinkered view isnt it?

Ask yourself a quick question,

What is the second most spoken language in Ireland at the moment?

Sardonicat wrote: »

Wait a minute - did you not say the problem wasn't our Irishness but our whiteness? You've just fundamentally contradicted yourself with that post.

No i have not.

She obviously can't appear to be white. But she could adopt a white Irish name etc Or not dress in indian clothing.

I mean if she were called Ruth from london and was white ...i doubt there would be much issue.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

When you read her tweets she talks about people being offended at her keeping her indian name.

I guess I should take this at face value if this lady is tweeting about her lived experience. However, I have to admit that I find it less than credible.

Generally, if you are a down-to-earth, easy going type person, you’ll find friends and fit in here. Conversely, high maintenance drama queens tend to be simply ignored. Frankly, most Irish people won’t a give a fiddlers about her keeping her Indian name. They’ll simply minimize contact with the person to the greatest extent possible, depriving them of the oxygen of attention. I wonder could this be fueling the message behind this tweet?

cfuserkildare wrote: »

What is the second most spoken language in Ireland at the moment?

Polish of course.

Why does this matter?

oholly121

wildeside wrote: »

Imagine a world where this debate was about whether or not we should allow a total of 200 people a year to migrate here, from Denmark. Of course that wouldn't even be a debate. Now imagine instead of Denmark it was Poland or New Zealand or Canada or Austrailia. Still any debate? What about Japan? What about South Korea? Still no debate? Now for any those countries increase the number to 2000 a year. What about 20,000? What about 50,000? I'm guessing people start shifting around in their chairs a bit more as the number start to get much higher.

Point being, one of the fundamentals here is purely one of scale. Nobody's arguing for no immigration. I think as a nation we've done very well so far and I think we can be pround of how welcoming we've been. But logically there must be some tipping point in the human psyche where push-back starts to manifest itself, which is only human.

Now what if you do the same mental exercise above but the countries in question are Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, India, North Korea, United Arab Emirates, Eritrea, South Sudan, Libya?

Any honest, rational person will start getting more uncomfortable a lot more quickly. Reason? You're a racist bigot obviously. The other reason might be that the first group are all western liberal democracies either in Europe, direct lineage to Europe or have adopted western liberal democratic values and institutions. The latter group of countries are not and instinctively this puts us on edge as we don't know exactly what values and culture we are importing. We don't automatically know the cut of their jib so to speak and can't effortless navigate these cultures, they are unfamiliar to us and so we fear them. And some of those fears may be valid. We don't know for certain that migrants from these countries will adopt our values, values which took many hundreds of years to evolve and refine throughout the west, they were hard-won, often through conflict (we didn't just download these values from an app)

But many of these same migrants will adopt our values and it's precisely because of those values that they want to come here or to any western liberal democracy. But, as the numbers from any particular culture/origin country increase the impetus to assimilate and adopt those values can decrease.

If you look at the most advanced, freeist countries in the world then you won't be surprised to find their foundation is that of a liberal democracy. Values and ideas matter, civilisations are built on them .... or destroyed by them (identity politics anyone?)

I think we've benefitted enormously from immigration, we are one of the richest per-capita countries in the world. I don't think we should forget how far we've come. It's easy to romanticise the past.

But we also shouldn't be naieve about immigration and should learn from the mistakes of others. We should not bury our heads in the sand and cross our fingers hoping people will all just sit around the campfire singing kum-by-yah.

The problem is there is no real forum to have a debate .... and debate is one of the foundational principles of a liberal democracy.

Great post and agree 200%

biko

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Polish of course.
Why does this matter?

It should be Irish.