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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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Sarn

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

Do you know anyone who works in the PS- ask them to send you a redacted version of their pension agreement as I'm not posting mine up here.

Here is a bit of info on the difference:

https://www.zurich.ie/pensions-retirement/faqs/defined-benefit-versus-defined-contribution/#:~:text=Company%20pensions%20can%20generally%20be,be%20paid%20to%20a%20retiree.&text=A%20defined%20contribution%20pension%20(DC,up%20a%20person's%20pension%20pot.

But I can categorically guarantee you that the majority (if not all) of people who joined after 2012/2013 are on DC pensions and it says so in their contracts.

I work in the PS, but it appears the contracts are in conflict with how the scheme is defined.

EndaHonesty

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

No they dont, you are a complete & utter bullsh*tter.

Your anger and foul language is unwarranted and pathetic. Reported.

Geuze

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

No- they are defined contribution
The key is in the wording - when you look at your PS contract and it says Defined Contribution pension

Let me be 100% clear.

All PS pensions are Defined Benefit.

The new SPS PS is less generous, yes, but it is still Defined Benefit.

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Single-Scheme-Overview-AAG.pdf

Sinzo

For the Attention of ADDAWORD

You say that defined benefits pensions are not available to most private sector workers.

That is actually not true. There is a significant DB pension available to all private sector employees - including you – it’s called the State Contributory Pension and it entitles you to ca. €12500 per annum at 67. If you have a spouse who has no income of their own OR only has an income of less than €5200 per annum then your defined pension rises to ca. €24,500 per annum. That's a pretty good deal.

This is especially the case when you don't necessarily have to contribute 30 or 40 years of service. So private sector workers do have a nice DB pension and I would never begrudge you it. Do you think the government should reduce your DB pension?

Until more recent years the private sector did have access to DB pensions. However, in more recent years due to the greed of private sector insurance and pensions businesses as well as the greed of the stock markets DB has been less available to private sector workers. There are still a cadre of private sector workers, the self-employed, big business workers who still take advantage of very generous concessions by the state towards their private pension pots. However, I, unlike you, would not be inclined to generalize about all private sector workers the way you have about public sector workers.

Many private sector workers due to a myriad of reasons do genuinely struggle. For the lowest paid the State will assist with the Working Family Payment or the One Parent Family Payment or Jobseekers Allowance to part time workers or to Self-Employed people whose businesses are struggling. There are subsidies to farmers and to start-up businesses and tax concessions are also available.

And by the way, if you are paying into a private sector pension scheme I'm sure you realize that the government makes sure you get tax relief on it and encourages your employer to subsidise your private pension too.

I believe that this is what a modern democratic republic with a social conscience should do. I also believe that good public services are required for a healthy society. I believe that a decent salary should be paid to attract suitable workers. I also believe that public servants, in general do a good job and are pretty well qualified.

The public sector does have defined pension schemes for most workers. However, there have been major changes in the way that this has been operated over the last decade and more. Now, many civil servants are paying Class A contributions and so their defined pension is only half of what it used to be and the other half, just like your DB State Pension, is also paid to them.

Whether or not 75k or 90k is a huge lump sum is obviously subject to debate. It certainly doesn’t come close to the payments of some in the private sector but such a comparison would render me guilty of your approach. What kind of lump sum will you or colleagues in your organisation have when it comes to their retirement. Are you paying 8% or more of your gross income towards that lump sum and pension?

The final 18 months of my employment, should I still have a job, will be the same flat rate that took me 18 years to rise to and will remain static for the final 18 years, except for any negotiated cost of living increases which, by the way, has been static for the last 12 years until we finally got some restoration in 2019. I wonder how much of a percentage increase you got in the last 12 years? I know you’re going to say you got none because you don’t really want a nuances and truthful conversation on it. I also know you’re going to say that many people lost their jobs and believe me that is a cause of much sadness to me because I know some who have been in that boat. But just because private sector jobs are lost, it doesn’t automatically follow that public sector jobs should be lost too. There is a certain critical mass that must be maintained. Over the last decade there has been a prorate reduction if public servants relative to the increase in population and the economy.

There may be grounds for pay cuts; we were cut badly after the last recession and remained cut for the best part of a decade. We had terms and conditions reduced including a halving of sick pay entitlements, but we accepted them for the common good and, obviously, we had no option but to accept them.

You need to realise that there is a multitude of factors in any particular debate and it’s not always useful or beneficial to generalise too much.

Poor_old_gill

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Your pension is based on your service & earnings, it's not based on contributions.

It is DB.

It is based on contributions - thats why I get a regular contributions statement.

You are just peddling lies here mate and for no real reason

Poor_old_gill

Sarn wrote: »

It is stated in the government booklet on the Single Public Service Pension Scheme that it is a type of defined benefit pension:

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Scheme-Booklet.pdf

Do you know anyone who works in the PS- ask them to send you a redacted version of their pension agreement as I'm not posting mine up here.

Here is a bit of info on the difference:

https://www.zurich.ie/pensions-retirement/faqs/defined-benefit-versus-defined-contribution/#:~:text=Company%20pensions%20can%20generally%20be,be%20paid%20to%20a%20retiree.&text=A%20defined%20contribution%20pension%20(DC,up%20a%20person's%20pension%20pot.

But I can categorically guarantee you that the majority (if not all) of people who joined after 2012/2013 are on DC pensions and it says so in their contracts.

EndaHonesty

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

No, I dont know today how much my pension will pay when I retire.

Just to showcase your lack of understanding of pensions - neither do the majority of people on DB pensions.

Your pension is based on your service & earnings, it's not based on contributions.

It is DB.

Sarn

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

No- they are defined contribution
The key is in the wording - when you look at your PS contract and it says Defined Contribution pension

It is stated in the government booklet on the Single Public Service Pension Scheme that it is a type of defined benefit pension:

https://singlepensionscheme.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Scheme-Booklet.pdf

Poor_old_gill

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Every public sector employee who qualifies for a pension, knows exactly today how much they will receive in their pension.

That is Defined Benefit.

No they dont, you are a complete & utter bullsh*tter.

EndaHonesty

Deleted User wrote: »

You're either willfully ignorant or just a troll. Every single hire in the PS and CS since 2013, over 100k people at this stage,do not have a DB pension.

Every public sector employee who qualifies for a pension, knows exactly today how much they will receive in their pension.

That is Defined Benefit.

Poor_old_gill

EndaHonesty wrote: »

So you don't know, today, how much your pension will pay when you retire?

No, I dont know today how much my pension will pay when I retire.

Just to showcase your lack of understanding of pensions - neither do the majority of people on DB pensions.

Poor_old_gill

Sarn wrote: »

The terms of the post 2013 pensions might be different, but they are still defined benefit pensions.

No- they are defined contribution
The key is in the wording - when you look at your PS contract and it says Defined Contribution pension

EndaHonesty

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

For one: Me.

I've a DC pension

Two: my wife

DC pension.

So you don't know, today, how much your pension will pay when you retire?

History Queen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're either willfully ignorant or just a troll. Every single hire in the PS and CS since 2013, over 100k people at this stage,do not have a DB pension.

A troll. I've asked him repeatedly to outline the different pensions the PS have and he refused instead mocking me for my lack of knowledge. The reason I asked is because I was trying to establish if he didn't know about the different schemes or was just trolling. His rude responses to me led me to believe he was just trolling. He doesn't acknowledge anything that doesn't fit his own narrative.

Apologies: I just realised I mixed Enda up with another poster on same topic!

Sarn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're either willfully ignorant or just a troll. Every single hire in the PS and CS since 2013, over 100k people at this stage,do not have a DB pension.

The terms of the post 2013 pensions might be different, but they are still defined benefit pensions.

Poor_old_gill

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Which public sector employees don't get a DB pension?

For one: Me.

I've a DC pension

Two: my wife

DC pension.

tayto lover

I get a great kick out of reading the jealousy here.

[Deleted User]

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Every public sector employee who works long enough to qualify for one, gets a DB pension.

DB pensions are essentially unavailable to the private worker.

You're either willfully ignorant or just a troll. Every single hire in the PS and CS since 2013, over 100k people at this stage,do not have a DB pension.

EndaHonesty

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

It's just not true to say that every PS work gets a DB pension.
It's an intentional lie to try derail the thread

Which public sector employees don't get a DB pension?

Poor_old_gill

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Every public sector employee who works long enough to qualify for one, gets a DB pension.

DB pensions are essentially unavailable to the private worker.

It's just not true to say that every PS work gets a DB pension.
It's an intentional lie to try derail the thread

EndaHonesty

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

Everyone in the public sector has a DB pension?
What utter nonsense- you know absolutely f*ckall about what you talking about!

If you must constantly make up lies to make your point, well then you really have no point

Every public sector employee who works long enough to qualify for one, gets a DB pension.

DB pensions are essentially unavailable to the private worker.

Poor_old_gill

addaword wrote: »

You are nearly as bad as barney and kippy, who actually have the audacity to complain about others who they claim do not understand averages! DB pension mean defined benefit pension, which everyone in the public service enjoys but extremely few in the private sector can get or have.

Everyone in the public sector has a DB pension?
What utter nonsense- you know absolutely f*ckall about what you talking about!

If you must constantly make up lies to make your point, well then you really have no point

addaword

Sinzo wrote: »

I dont know what you mean by db pension?

You are nearly as bad as barney and kippy, who actually have the audacity to complain about others who they claim do not understand averages! DB pension mean defined benefit pension, which everyone in the public service enjoys but extremely few in the private sector can get or have.

Sinzo

Treppen wrote: »

Like farming subsidies?

And county enterprise board funding of businesses, dept of social protection back to work schemes and subsidising private employment with working family payments or jobseekers allowance payments to self employed people

Treppen

addaword wrote: »

When the country is borrowing to pay public sector wages, if you are so concerned about the survival of private sector businesses would it not be better to give this money direct to the businesses, rather than give it to public servants, many of whom spend the extra discretionary income on foreign websites and foreign holidays and imported goods, so the money goes straight out of the country again?

Like farming subsidies?

Sinzo

Sinzo wrote: »

Quick point. IF the public sector worker earns 271 extra per week then more than half of it goes on tax, pension, prsi and USC. Now we are down to 130 per week. Net. As has already been stated comparisons between public and private are extremely difficult due to the many factors involved. I suggest that you look up publicjobs.ie. you could get really lucky with a job in the public service.

Job security is an advantage in public service but things are rapidly changing and there are less guarantees even in the public sector about job security and flexibility is now demanded by the powers that be. If you were unfortunate enough to lose your job due to Covid then the government has tried to assist. Not perfect but no nonetheless people have been helped. Who do you think administered the payment of 720k PUP payments or the 400 I wage subsidy schemes.. yes public servants. Who put their lives on the line in public health.. yes public servants. Who recent lost his life while working for the public good at the hands of a mentally I'll man.. yes a public servant.
I dont know what you mean by db pension?

Sinzo

addaword wrote: »

Come off ot. According to the CSO last November, the average public sector worker €271 PER WEEK more than the average private sector worker. Of course the average private sector worker struggles more to pay Bill's and spends less on holidays. Plus the average private sector does not have any great security - how many now find themselves out of work over the past few months? And factor in the lack of a DB pension for the vast majority of the private sector. Get real.

Quick point. IF the public sector worker earns 271 extra per week then more than half of it goes on tax, pension, prsi and USC. Now we are down to 130 per week. Net. As has already been stated comparisons between public and private are extremely difficult due to the many factors involved. I suggest that you look up publicjobs.ie. you could get really lucky with a job in the public service.

barneystinson

addaword wrote: »

I clearly understand averages a lot better than you. Now unless you are a retired civil servant I thought you are not suppose to post so much during the day?

If you did understand averages you wouldn't be trying to compare the average of 2 completely incomparable groups. Unless you do understand averages but are citing the global averages to be completely disingenuous... I suppose that's a possibility alright. So which is it..??

Are you busy at work yourself today?

kippy

addaword wrote: »

I clearly understand averages a lot better than you. Now unless you are a retired civil servant I thought you are not suppose to post so much during the day?

People can take various forms of leave whent hey chose and if the poster is a teacher they're off at the moment.........

You haven't a clue about averages, a cursory glance over your posting history shows that.
You've also a poor grasp of reading comprehension.

addaword

barneystinson wrote: »

However many posts into a thread and you still clearly don't understand averages. You definitely wouldn't pass either the numerical reasoning or verbal reasoning part of a civil service test...

.

I clearly understand averages a lot better than you. Now unless you are a retired civil servant I thought you are not suppose to post so much during the day?