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Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Pkiernan

I haven't seen or heard anything from Mary Lou, Slab Murphy and other good Republicans in ages.

What's going on?

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dabestman1

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein are a threat to our democracy, they want to bully their way to power like in the 1930s. Many of their supporters on here would love a depression like 1929 to help them on their way.

The rabble of the rest are only interested in protest and foghorns. No matter what is proposed, they are against it.

Give it a rest ffs, you're like a broken record.

joeguevara

dabestman1 wrote: »

Give it a rest ffs, you're like a broken record.

You’re right. Sinn Fein are in no way a threat to democracy. I think they can regroup and come up with a better strategy and real connections with similar parties.

But while it is great to see that for the first time in my life time they have ignited a spark in voters that had no interest before. But with that comes responsibility. They should educate their supporters. They should not buy into the populist lets have a march for anything that seems to be the option de jour.

I think they will have to change how they are perceived by other parties. Elected candidates shouting tiocfaidh ar la will make it difficult to form any partnership with th other to mains or greens. The other parties are quite disparate and not aligned with inherent SF ideals.

Also, they should come up with a better approach to the question of the army council. It was actually the only time that Mary Lou tripped up on a question. Her answer could have been interpreted as she has no role to speak on their behalf. Another candidate said he had no knowledge of their existence but a week later said he had been told by them that they no role in a serious beating.

The only other issue that i see them having is their younger demographic all have a complete and utter disdain for FF and FG. Unless they are going to grow considerably they may have to cosy up to more than likely FF. how they will explain that to the people who have spent months calling FF gangsters, scum, only helpin* the rich, murdering the homeless is going to be tricky. But listen, whatever anyone’s opinions on any party, the election call was a wake up call for all of them and that is good for democracy,

Bonniedog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Proportional representation didn't work for 24% because two parties froze out that 24%.
If you do that expect protest.

Again, two parties froze out a third. That is going to bring protest. Did you seriously think a mandate of 24% was just going to go silently into the night?

What a gang of whingers.

So you think that every party that gets 24% should of right be included in government?

In Britain that would mean they would have had Tory/Labour coalitions for the last 100 years!

76% of the electorate rejected SF by the way but in their bizarre world that doesnt count for anything so they throw a strop.

markodaly

joeguevara wrote: »

Can anyone explain to me why so many Sinn Fein and People Before Profit supporters are organising a march to demonstrate against the newly formed government because they are not the change they voted for. How can reasonable people think it’s in any way acceptable to go against at the end of the day the will of the people and essentiall revolt against a democratically formed government because they still hold the view that their perceived outcome trumps the actual one.

Also, while you are there, what is the constant posting of Michael Martin photo with Not My Taoiseach sprawled across it. Is it a case of throwing the toys out of the pram because they didn’t get the toy they wanted off Santy. It’s like they are oblivious to the fact that every Majority opposition that ever was would be disappointed that their leader wasn’t Taoiseach but understood the fact that if you don’t get enough votes you won’t be sitting on the other side.

For the sake of openness, i think what’s on the other side are equally as ineffectual, but my god voters need to grow up.

It is embarrassing alright.

I have said it before and ill say it again. There is a strong smell of Brexit Sulpher from this type of narrative, a narrative played upon by SF.
They are the nationalist and nativist party yet they don't realise it yet, that they have more in common with UKIP and the BNP then FG.

joeguevara

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Proportional representation didn't work for 24% because two parties froze out that 24%.
If you do that expect protest.

Again, two parties froze out a third. That is going to bring protest. Did you seriously think a mandate of 24% was just going to go silently into the night?

What do you mean they froze them out. What gives SF this belief that they have the divine right to expect interaction. They literally had spent the last two years denigrating FG and regular spats in the Dail. Leo saying it doesn’t long for the balaclava to slip to Pearse as the most notable. With FF they equally denigrated their core values, and FF have taken evidence from the PSNI Garda and the independent tribunal that the IRA control the decisions. Why then is it their fault that they didn’t want to join them.

If 24 % think they have the right to disregard the elected majority then fcuck that maybe we do have a problem with our democracy,

joeguevara

markodaly wrote: »

It is embarrassing alright.

I have said it before and ill say it again. There is a strong smell of Brexit Sulpher from this type of narrative, a narrative played upon by SF.
They are the nationalist and nativist party yet they don't realise it yet, that they have more in common with UKIP and the BNP then FG.

Agreed. One of the core values of SF is pro immigration but a large amount of their newer candidates and voting base are the opposite. Paddy Holohon being the most blatant example of how they are not on the same page.

FrancieBrady

Bonniedog wrote: »

What a gang of whingers.

So you think that every party that gets 24% should of right be included in government?

In Britain that would mean they would have had Tory/Labour coalitions for the last 100 years!

76% of the electorate rejected SF by the way but in their bizarre world that doesnt count for anything so they throw a strop.

No, I think if two parties refuse to talk to them and come together themselves to form a government then the 24% have the right to protest that.

FrancieBrady

joeguevara wrote: »

What do you mean they froze them out. What gives SF this belief that they have the divine right to expect interaction. They literally had spent the last two years denigrating FG and regular spats in the Dail. Leo saying it doesn’t long for the balaclava to slip to Pearse as the most notable. With FF they equally denigrated their core values, and FF have taken evidence from the PSNI Garda and the independent tribunal that the IRA control the decisions. Why then is it their fault that they didn’t want to join them.

If 24 % think they have the right to disregard the elected majority then fcuck that maybe we do have a problem with our democracy,

FG and FF have spent decades denigrating SF. FF and FG talk out of both sides of their mouths on this. On the one hand throwing the IRA out everytime they are being criticised and all the easy lazy stuff about 'balaclava's' etc and then on the other hand imploring them to get involved in democratic politics in the north.

They can't have it two ways here. If they aren't fit for government here they aren't fit for government in the north.

Put up the evidence, arrest those responsible, tear up the GFA or shut up and start behaving like democrats.

joeguevara

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I think if two parties refuse to talk to them and come together themselves to form a government then the 24% have the right to protest that.

Francie i disagree with a lot of what you post but you have a lot of knowledge, you stick to your guns and come across fair. But you can’t honestly suggest that FF or FG would talk to SF. If we start with FG, have you had a look at the countless and incessant homophobic comments that are posted about Varadkar. The anti Semitic comments aimed at Harris, Pure vitriol at Coveney and the complete character assasination of the party and their voters.

FF next. While constantly saying that they have a natural allegiance to each other due to both being Republican, the divide couldn’t be wider. The Apple Tax being w good example.

If Aontu had 24% should parties be obliged to talk to them. Fcuck no.

It’s on both sides. The majority of candidates hate each other. The voting base are diametrically different. And at the end of the day, one side thinks the other is controlled by terrorists. Democracy means you are required to talk to anyone.

If at every turn when a decision is made that the opposition don’t like, are they going to go for a stroll down O’Connell street. Some cop on is needed.

joeguevara

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FG and FF have spent decades denigrating SF. FF and FG talk out of both sides of their mouths on this. On the one hand throwing the IRA out everytime they are being criticised and all the easy lazy stuff about 'balaclava's' etc and then on the other hand imploring them to get involved in democratic politics in the north.

They can't have it two ways here. If they aren't fit for government here they aren't fit for government in the north.

Put up the evidence, arrest those responsible, tear up the GFA or shut up and start behaving like democrats.

The difference is that FG don’t have a mandate in the north. I think the word imploring is incorrect. They told them to implement everything that they demand here. Things like minimum wage, assisting homelessness, pension age, social housing. It was more, why don’t you get off your asses and do it. The whole not sitting for 3 years because of the Irish language is ridiculous at this stage, while nationalist culture is important it shouldn’t trump real issues.

But why should they then talk to them if they denigrate them.
The issue of the IRA is a tricky one. It was left out of the latest tribunal report which appears to be strategic. But it’s probable that not exposing what they think is true is more palatable than a long process, where the ultimate end is a resumption of the violence.

FrancieBrady

joeguevara wrote: »

Francie i disagree with a lot of what you post but you have a lot of knowledge, you stick to your guns and come across fair. But you can’t honestly suggest that FF or FG would talk to SF. If we start with FG, have you had a look at the countless and incessant homophobic comments that are posted about Varadkar. The anti Semitic comments aimed at Harris, Pure vitriol at Coveney and the complete character assasination of the party and their voters.

No party can be held responsible for what is said on the internet. That would be ridiculous. It is just lazy stereotyping to say all of the above comes in an orchestrated way from SF. More allegations without any proof.
See also what anyone supporting SF is called here. Only today I commented on somebody referring to a female SF member as a 'slug'.

FF next. While constantly saying that they have a natural allegiance to each other due to both being Republican, the divide couldn’t be wider. The Apple Tax being w good example.

If Aontu had 24% should parties be obliged to talk to them. Fcuck no.

Coalition can work perfectly fine with parties with different outlooks. This one is hardly a marriage of equal perspectives is it?

It’s on both sides. The majority of candidates hate each other. The voting base are diametrically different. And at the end of the day, one side thinks the other is controlled by terrorists. Democracy means you are required to talk to anyone.

If at every turn when a decision is made that the opposition don’t like, are they going to go for a stroll down O’Connell street. Some cop on is needed.

FF and FG's behaviour has set the theme for this government - exclusion of 24% of the electorate. Protesting that will be the order of the day. That is politics, SF PBP etc will use this.

If you want you have every right to protest the protests.

markodaly

FF and FG's behaviour has set the theme for this government - exclusion of 24% of the electorate. Protesting that will be the order of the day. That is politics, SF PBP etc will use this.

If you want you have every right to protest the protests.

Protesting for the sake of protesting.
SF, if they want to be taken seriously, will need to cop themselves on.
Can you imagine FG protesting the scenario where SF/FF and the Greens would have gotten into government?

If SF want to be seen as the main opposition party then they need to put their megaphones away and act with a bit more conviction, responsibility, rigour and professionalism. Because at the moment, they are acting like a ragtag bunch of idiots, like from some student union.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Protesting for the sake of protesting.
SF, if they want to be taken seriously, will need to cop themselves on.
Can you imagine FG protesting the scenario where SF/FF and the Greens would have gotten into government?

If SF want to be seen as the main opposition party then they need to put their megaphones away and act with a bit more conviction, responsibility, rigour and professionalism. Because at the moment, they are acting like a ragtag bunch of idiots, like from some student union.

FG have never been excluded from negotiating on behalf of their mandate...there is no telling what they would do. I won't mention the famous coloured shirts in their history suffice to say we have no idea what they would do if that happened for a prolonged period.

Protest has been a legitimate way to express a view since the foundation of the state. Get over it Mark and maybe get used to it, because I think you and your party are going to have endure a lot of it based on the bed you have made for yourselves.

And wow...I'm just flabbergasted you have come to the view that SF and PBP supporters are acting like 'idiots', is that new?

joeguevara

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No party can be held responsible for what is said on the internet. That would be ridiculous. It is just lazy stereotyping to say all of the above comes in an orchestrated way from SF. More allegations without any proof.
See also what anyone supporting SF is called here. Only today I commented on somebody referring to a female SF member as a 'slug'.

Coalition can work perfectly fine with parties with different outlooks. This one is hardly a marriage of equal perspectives is it?

FF and FG's behaviour has set the theme for this government - exclusion of 24% of the electorate. Protesting that will be the order of the day. That is politics, SF PBP etc will use this.

If you want you have every right to protest the protests.

I’m not saying that SF are responsible for the publishing of content on an independent website or forum. But that is their supporters so FG don’t want to associate with that. But when it’s on official SF media or website and not called out by the party then it becomes their issue, obviously I’m not talking about being pro developers or ripping the poor, but I am talking about things like the constant homophobic language against Varadkar and the Jewish thing with Harris. This would have two benefits. It would show a step forward for inclusion in discussions with parties and it would show to people of similar minorities that they are represented. Obviously the same goes for the other side.

I think it’s disgusting calling any supporter a name like a slug or any denigration. the animosity and extreme language and behaviour that exists between different supporters is something I have never witnessed before.

Marching with no purpose is ineffectual. Do they think it will stop the coalition. Will it assist minorities. In essence it does nothing but loose a few calories. Why not actually mobilise and build on local government. Educate the next generation of voter. Assist in gaining new skills that would help the party I.e. new economic or environmental policy, also it may show potential candidates that are a better fit than some of the elected td s with very little vetting done on them. Also a lot of the new support have little to know knowledge of how Northern Ireland should be governed. I talked to 10 different people and none new that Stormont hadn’t sat in 3 years. None new any elected SF member there, none had a clue of pretty basic things you should know. Surely integrating The supporters north and south in a positive way is better than shouting not my Taoiseach on a rainy Wednesday night in November,

But it’s everyone’s constitutional right to assemble and march. But I thought marching might be a word that some supporter have an inate hatred of.

Bonniedog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FG have never been excluded from negotiating on behalf of their mandate...

FF never talked to FG about forming a government until 5 months ago! Even when FG had a lot more votes than SF. And vice versa.

You really don't get this democracy thing do you? No party is under any obligation to take any other party into power.

Shinners just love this self pitying thing. Not much pity for the children raped by their members, or those beaten and shot to death AFTER the ceasefire because they crossed them in some way.

During northern elections shinners intimidated Aontú and PBP canvassers in places like West Belfast that they consider to be their "manor."

Slightest thing happens to them and its pathetic whinging 24/7

Fk them. Big Boy Pants

FrancieBrady

joeguevara wrote: »

I’m not saying that SF are responsible for the publishing of content on an independent website or forum. But that is their supporters so FG don’t want to associate with that. But when it’s on official SF media or website and not called out by the party then it becomes their issue, obviously I’m not talking about being pro developers or ripping the poor, but I am talking about things like the constant homophobic language against Varadkar and the Jewish thing with Harris. This would have two benefits. It would show a step forward for inclusion in discussions with parties and it would show to people of similar minorities that they are represented. Obviously the same goes for the other side.

Where have SF published constant homophobic comments on a website or the 'Jewish' thing with Harris?

I think it’s disgusting calling any supporter a name like a slug or any denigration. the animosity and extreme language and behaviour that exists between different supporters is something I have never witnessed before.

You are not the reader of my comments that you say you are. I have been called everything from a murderer, apologist for pedophilia to scum on here. And the female members of SF are constantly denigrated and demeaned on this very site.
I am not denying nasty things are said by those supporting SF either. All parties have their bombastic and ignorant.

FrancieBrady

Bonniedog wrote: »

FF never talked to FG about forming a government until 5 months ago! Even when FG had a lot more votes than SF. And vice versa.

You really don't get this democracy thing do you? No party is under any obligation to take any other party into power.

Shinners just love this self pitying thing. Not much pity for the children raped by their members, or those beaten and shot to death AFTER the ceasefire because they crossed them in some way.

During northern elections shinners intimidated Aontú and PBP canvassers in places like West Belfast that they consider to be their "manor."

Slightest thing happens to them and its pathetic whinging 24/7

Fk them. Big Boy Pants

More of the allegations without back up there. Lazy and tired.

Protests are not whinging. Two parties (the two party's who just coincidently swapped power for 100 yrs) have had their vote chipped away and have come together to prevent another getting into government. Stand up and own that.

That is going to be protested. If they are big enough to ignore 24% of the population they are big enough to endure a protest. Never heard such whinging.

joeguevara

Another result that marching against the democratically elected government is that all you are cultivating is divide. What will be the chants that will be heard during it? It will hardly be we respect your parties, we respect that you have enough seats but we want another bite of the cherry? Or you are liars, you hoodwinked the people who voted for us, we have no respect for what you stand for. How would it then look if there was another election and by some spectacular event you jumped into bed with FF and the Greens. Wouldn’t the people marching be a bit concerned that they were previously told that they were liars and against the working people but they are different?

Another thing that marching will cultivate is a belief by any party that SF goes into coalition with is the default for any conflict is march, didn’t get a deal over the line march, homelessness went up march, Apple tax went to Apple march. Jaysus it will be like jJuly the 12th every week.

I remember during the Lisbon Treaty referendum and the subsequent changes SF were the most vocal that a second referendum was undemocratic. So what’s different. You didn’t get the result you wanted so want to go again. It’s not like retaking a penalty kick cause you weren’t ready and messed up.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FG have never been excluded from negotiating on behalf of their mandate...there is no telling what they would do. I won't mention the famous coloured shirts in their history suffice to say we have no idea what they would do if that happened for a prolonged period.

Protest has been a legitimate way to express a view since the foundation of the state. Get over it Mark and maybe get used to it, because I think you and your party are going to have endure a lot of it based on the bed you have made for yourselves.

And wow...I'm just flabbergasted you have come to the view that SF and PBP supporters are acting like 'idiots', is that new?

It protests for the sake of protesting. The government is what, one day old and they are out there like idiots protesting it already because sure, what else can they do?
SF had 4 months to try and cobble together some form of government but now, sure 'rabble rabble rabble!'
SF are delighted of course deep down. It carries on about the establishment blah blah blah are being mean to them.

They are like the same people who wanted Obama to fail back in 2008 because they were idiots.

SF want this government to fail thus they want Ireland to be in a worse state.
And they call themselves Irish nationalists?

FrancieBrady

Most new governments get the dignity of a grace period. This one has not earned that.

That is the feeling among those who perceive a forked tongue among these so called democrats.

Own what was done because it is going to be the theme of their tenure, however long it lasts.

joeguevara

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Most new governments get the dignity of a grace period. This one has not earned that.

That is the feeling among those who perceive a forked tongue among these so called democrats.

Own what was done because it is going to be the theme of their tenure, however long it lasts.

But equally SF should also own what they have done. I’m not talking about the usual sh1te but the fact that they completely fcucked up their strategy by running a low number of candidate. They should also own the fact that they cannot expect instant access to parties when they have done nothing but abuse and shout (not even debate) at every twist and turn.

I never heard the use of Democrats in reference to irish politics but whateve, if you really believe when you say so called democrats then there is no point in engaging with SF supporters. Respect the decision.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Most new governments get the dignity of a grace period. This one has not earned that.

Pray tell why?
Oh because you tell us so?

You sound like one of those Trump supporters!

The government have been in office 48 hours, and we have SF and PBP protesting it.....

Where were they for the past 4 months? Did these two parties agree on a common platform or policy position?
Last I heard, RBB sent SF a letter and then, nothing! Tumbleweed!

That is how much we should take these guys seriously.

joeguevara

markodaly wrote: »

Pray tell why?
Oh because you tell us so?

You sound like one of those Trump supporters!

The government have been in office 48 hours, and we have SF and PBP protesting it.....

Where were they for the past 4 months? Did these two parties agree on a common platform or policy position?
Last I heard, RBB sent SF a letter and then, nothing! Tumbleweed!

That is how much we should take these guys seriously.

Mary Lou was missing for most of those 4 months with Covid. Richard Boyd Barret was openly pleading for left parties to try and come together.

There was a half hearted approach for a national government to deal with Covid but when every turn was lambasted the acting government saw it as more of a hindrance. The time to mobilise and march together to push through a plan was for the last number of months. Don’t use Covid as an excuse as it didn’t matter when BLM marches were on. I didn’t see one social media post of SF seeking proposals. Think they met the greens but came to nothing.

joeguevara

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Most new governments get the dignity of a grace period. This one has not earned that.

That is the feeling among those who perceive a forked tongue among these so called democrats.

Own what was done because it is going to be the theme of their tenure, however long it lasts.

What are you saying. I have never heard any government that after x amount of months there was a march against them. None when the bailout was implemented. None when mobile phone licences were sold. Yes there were marches for things like water charges but they weren’t a minority trying to oust an elected government.

Mortelaro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FG have never been excluded from negotiating on behalf of their mandate...

You're just talking rubbish
Over several decades, Fianna Fail excluded FG from government and vice versa and that's a fact
FG of course got on with it, as did FF instead of all this arrogant whinging SF are doing

For Forks Sake

mattser

Mortelaro wrote: »

You're just talking rubbish
Over several decades, Fianna Fail excluded FG from government and vice versa and that's a fact
FG of course got on with it, as did FF instead of all this arrogant whinging SF are doing

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Let them rest Mort. They were up very early this morning.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Proportional representation didn't work for 24% because two parties froze out that 24%.
If you do that expect protest.

Again, two parties froze out a third. That is going to bring protest. Did you seriously think a mandate of 24% was just going to go silently into the night?

What hypocritical nonsense.

If Mary-Lou had been able to get her act together after the election, and pull the 87 non-FF, non-FG TDs into a single coherent voice, then she would have had no hesitation in freezing out FF and FG.

We are more than fed up hearing from her that that is what she wants to do. This really is a situation where SF have been found out in the step-up to senior hurling. Crying about being beaten, whinging that it isn't fair, instead of acknowledging that they were outplayed and outsmarted.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I think if two parties refuse to talk to them and come together themselves to form a government then the 24% have the right to protest that.

It seems that I am constantly having to explain previous government situations to you.

In 2007, Fine Gael got 27.3% of the vote, up 4.8% since the 2002 election. The clear winners of the election, but Fianna Fail, the Progressive Democrats and the Greens excluded them from negotiations and formed a government.

We didn't see childish street protests from ignorant FG supporters then, did we?

Your position is reminiscent of the early 1930s in Germany, where one party organised street protests and forced a series of inconclusive elections before bullying their way to power without a majority. We know where that ended.

christy c

Mortelaro wrote: »

...instead of all this arrogant whinging SF are doing

I think this is an interesting point. FG are seen as the arrogant party (probably justified or at least partly justified), but SF are giving them a run for their money these days. Even some of their supporters are getting in on the act.