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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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[Deleted User]

Geuze wrote: »

2019 Earnings data released today by the CSO.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/

Average earnings have now passed 40k, up 3.6%.

For FT workers, it's 49k.

Let's be honest, it's probably higher when you consider the wealthy elite aren't required to release their tax and salary information unlike the been top of the public sector.

Geuze

mickuhaha wrote: »

Thanks Geuze.

So this would mean that the Clerical grade will never reach the average earnings never mind the average for full time works and Executive Officer grade takes 7/8 years to get to average earnings and I think it's 16 years to get to average full time earnings. Who is earning all the wonderful money in the civil service. Is it specialist grades?

The CSO averages are across the whole workforce, not just the PS.

Table 5 shows the average earnings by sector, note the 5yr change:

Education = 8.3%
Health = 9.6%

ICT = 20.4%
Prof, scientific, technical = 19.7%

So the paycuts, and the slow pay restoration are working to cause PS to grow slower than private sector.

Glinda

Not that anyone ever changes their mind, but just for comparison;

an EO that was at the top of their scale in 2007 would have been earning 48,954. The same person in 2020 will now be on 50,834. No increments once you reach the top point (in this case after 18 years service in a forty year career). So that person will have seen a payrise of 1,880 in total, over the past thirteen years. That's 3.8 %. Not per year, that's the total over thirteen years.

Figure for an AO is 59,213 in 2007, increase to 61,545 today. Increase for AOs has been a little better - 2,332, or 3.93% in thirteen years.

For a Principal Officer, they would have been on 106,785 in 2007, and would be on 107,399 today. Increase a whopping 614 euro in their annual salary over the period. that's a little over half a percent in thirteen years.

Most people in the public service are not in their first few years, so a lot of the time increments are irrelevant.

Glinda

And following on from my post above, before someone says EOs are being overpaid, the level of responsibility at that grade can be phenomenal. Especially if you're any good.

Geuze

Glinda wrote: »

Not that anyone ever changes their mind, but just for comparison;

an EO that was at the top of their scale in 2007 would have been earning 48,954. The same person in 2020 will now be on 50,834. No increments once you reach the top point (in this case after 18 years service in a forty year career). So that person will have seen a payrise of 1,880 in total, over the past thirteen years. That's 3.8 %. Not per year, that's the total over thirteen years.

Figure for an AO is 59,213 in 2007, increase to 61,545 today. Increase for AOs has been a little better - 2,332, or 3.93% in thirteen years.

For a Principal Officer, they would have been on 106,785 in 2007, and would be on 107,399 today. Increase a whopping 614 euro in their annual salary over the period. that's a little over half a percent in thirteen years.

Most people in the public service are not in their first few years, so a lot of the time increments are irrelevant.

There you go. The CSO data shows that the PS pay premium, that did exist, has declined.

Your figures confirm that.

Vizzy

Glinda wrote: »

Not that anyone ever changes their mind, but just for comparison;

an EO that was at the top of their scale in 2007 would have been earning 48,954. The same person in 2020 will now be on 50,834. No increments once you reach the top point (in this case after 18 years service in a forty year career). So that person will have seen a payrise of 1,880 in total, over the past thirteen years. That's 3.8 %. Not per year, that's the total over thirteen years.

Figure for an AO is 59,213 in 2007, increase to 61,545 today. Increase for AOs has been a little better - 2,332, or 3.93% in thirteen years.

For a Principal Officer, they would have been on 106,785 in 2007, and would be on 107,399 today. Increase a whopping 614 euro in their annual salary over the period. that's a little over half a percent in thirteen years.

Most people in the public service are not in their first few years, so a lot of the time increments are irrelevant.

This is a post that I put up earlier in this thread
"in my own case (Local Authority) I was at the top of the scale, including LSI's in 2010, so my gross salary has increased by 5.8% in 10 years.

Many of my colleagues would have been in the same position , i.e. at the max or very close to the max of the scale since 2010.
Some exceptions would probably be clerical officer who have a very long scale before they reach the max.

Very little opportunity to seek or get promotion until about 2018, and before somebody jumps in to say "why would you not travel to get promoted " - been there, done that. Want to buy a T-shirt or two ?"

noodler

mickuhaha wrote: »

Thanks Geuze.

So this would mean that the Clerical grade will never reach the average earnings never mind the average for full time works and Executive Officer grade takes 7/8 years to get to average earnings and I think it's 16 years to get to average full time earnings. Who is earning all the wonderful money in the civil service. Is it specialist grades?

Hmm let's pretend clerical staff in the private sectors get paid 50k per annum to make a silly point!

mickuhaha

noodler wrote: »

Hmm let's pretend clerical staff in the private sectors get paid 50k per annum to make a silly point!

You must have missed the point I made about the increments being the reason for staff retention in the Civil service. If the private sector wanted to retain staff in the lower end of the workforce they would do the same. If you are a CO in revenue you get quite a bit of training as said. I am sure this is not cheap. Would you prefer a teen on the end of the phone when you call revenue about you tax or when you're down on your luck and need to apply for social welfare? A blank look when you're asking questions. What price would you put on knowledge and experience.

addaword

mickuhaha wrote: »

If the private sector wanted to retain staff in the lower end of the workforce they would do the same.

Many staff are retained at the lower end of the workforce, without the need for the taxpayer to give them an extra €1000 each and every year.

Arealred

Hard to believe this nonsense of cutting public sector wages is being mooted. The last time that happened every small business suffered because Mary the clerical officer or John the hospital porter didn't have a brass cent to rub together at the end of the week. Are we going to make the same mistake a second time?

At time when front line workers have given their all during this crisis and it's not just nurses although they have been exceptional the vast majority of public servants have done the state unbelievable service to have nonsense like this being spouted is unbelievable.

Also think of front line workers who we have lost during the last few months including the Detective Garda

[Deleted User]

Geuze wrote: »

There you go. The CSO data shows that the PS pay premium, that did exist, has declined.

Your figures confirm that.

the part in bold

where has that been proven in any of the last few pages at all

addaword

Arealred wrote: »

At time when front line workers have given their all during this crisis and it's not just nurses although they have been exceptional the vast majority of public servants have done the state unbelievable service

Most hospitals were quite quiet during the crises. The private sector nursing home staff were the ones who were not as well paid as the public sector nursing home staff, as the state pays them more, yet they gave their all too. And many people would disagree about "the vast majority of public servants" during the crises, given the number of complaints about some schools not communicating much with their pupils during the past 3 months. Our schools will be the last back in Europe. Kids with special needs have been neglected by the system, while 17,000 Special Needs assistants remain on full pay. Failte Ireland staff gone home and have not answered phones. The list is endless.

Arealred wrote: »

Also think of front line workers who we have lost during the last few months including the Detective Garda

It is very sad to lose any worker, but most workers who lose their lives while at work are in the private sector, such as in construction, farming, fishing, transportation etc.

Arealred

addaword wrote: »

Most hospitals were quite quiet during the crises. The private sector nursing home staff were the ones who were not as well paid as the public sector nursing home staff, as the state pays them more, yet they gave their all too. And many people would disagree about "the vast majority of public servants" during the crises, given the number of complaints about some schools not communicating much with their pupils during the past 3 months. Our schools will be the last back in Europe. Kids with special needs have been neglected by the system, while 17,000 Special Needs assistants remain on full pay. Failte Ireland staff gone home and have not answered phones. The list is endless.

It is very sad to lose any worker, but most workers who lose their lives while at work are in the private sector, such as in construction, farming, fishing, transportation etc.

Well the teachers in my kids school have been nothing short of excellent. Lots of preparatory work done, lesson plans on school app, class zoom calls etc. In difficult unprecedented circumstances they have done their best.

The fact still remains public sector staff have lost their lives for just doing their job.

This debate goes around in circles but at the end of the day I don't think the government will be so stupid as to cut wages this time around as it was a huge factor in businesses closing in the last recession.

addaword

Arealred wrote: »

I don't think the government will be so stupid as to cut wages this time around as it was a huge factor in businesses closing in the last recession.

When the country is borrowing to pay public sector wages, if you are so concerned about the survival of private sector businesses would it not be better to give this money direct to the businesses, rather than give it to public servants, many of whom spend the extra discretionary income on foreign websites and foreign holidays and imported goods, so the money goes straight out of the country again?

Vizzy

addaword wrote: »

When the country is borrowing to pay public sector wages, if you are so concerned about the survival of private sector businesses would it not be better to give this money direct to the businesses, rather than give it to public servants, many of whom spend the extra discretionary income on foreign websites and foreign holidays and imported goods, so the money goes straight out of the country again?

What about giving the PS the pay increase, but take it back immediately if they go on a foreign holiday ?

Would that sate your anger ?

addaword

Vizzy wrote: »

What about giving the PS the pay increase, but take it back immediately if they go on a foreign holiday ?

Would that sate your anger ?

I do not have anger. And why would the p.s. get a pay increase when their employer is having to borrow 30 billion this year just to keep the lights on?

[Deleted User]

youve had all of your questions answered dozens of times

you have never acknowledged this

you have had all of your contentions dismissed comprehensively dozens of times

you have never acknowledged this

i can see why you are so upset at not making any of the competitions

but you have to accept you just havent the stuff for the PS

im sorry

addaword

Dream on, while you ignore answering the question yet again. Try harder. I ask you again: why would the p.s. get a pay increase when their employer is having to borrow 30 billion this year just to keep the lights on?

[Deleted User]

dear chap

your questions dont even make coherent sense to answer them

even if you had a history of listening to, let alone understanding, the answers

who ever told you that your prediction of borrowing was the pertinent input into public sector pay negotiations?

they lied to you.

Vizzy

Deleted User wrote: »

youve had all of your questions answered dozens of times

you have never acknowledged this

you have had all of your contentions dismissed comprehensively dozens of times

you have never acknowledged this

i can see why you are so upset at not making any of the competitions

but you have to accept you just havent the stuff for the PS

im sorry

In fairness, he may not have the stuff for the PS, but he was able to guarantee that members of his family got in.

[Deleted User]

Vizzy wrote: »

In fairness, he may not have the stuff for the PS, but he was able to guarantee that members of his family got in.

twas up there with the bank guarantee that one

addaword

Vizzy wrote: »

In fairness, he may not have the stuff for the PS, but he was able to guarantee that members of his family got in.

There were or are no guarantees in this life, but they were strongly encouraged after talking to family and friends.

Vizzy

addaword wrote: »

There were or are no guarantees in this life, but they were strongly encouraged after talking to family and friends.

That is not what you said earlier in this thread.

I will ask again, did you or did you not make sure that your relatives got jobs in the PS ?

Simple yes or no will do.

addaword

Vizzy wrote: »

That is not what you said earlier in this thread.

It is what I said, and I even clarified it for you at the time. After getting advice from different sources, they wanted careers in the p.s., and why would they not, with the security, higher pay, pension and other perks?

Vizzy

addaword wrote: »

It is what I said, and I even clarified it for you at the time. After getting advice from different sources, they wanted careers in the p.s., and why would they not, with the security, higher pay, pension and other perks?

This is what you said ( post 1192) "I done the next best thing. I made sure my kids got jobs there. If they want to they can always leave and join the private sector, but the public sector has too many advantages for them to want to do that"

So, are you saying you made that up ?

Sinzo

addaword wrote: »

It is what I said, and I even clarified it for you at the time. After getting advice from different sources, they wanted careers in the p.s., and why would they not, with the security, higher pay, pension and other perks?

The best thing you could do is look up publicjobs.ie. get in on the gravy train that is the public and all your problems will be solved. Get paid the big bucks for doing nothing.

[Deleted User]

addaword wrote: »

Dream on, while you ignore answering the question yet again. Try harder. I ask you again: why would the p.s. get a pay increase when their employer is having to borrow 30 billion this year just to keep the lights on?

That 30bn is to provide services to you and your family.

Public servants are employees. The running of the country has nothing to do with what an employee is paid.
Would you deprive your kids of a pay rise?

addaword

SouthWesterly wrote: »

That 30bn is to provide services to you and your family.

Public servants are employees. The running of the country has nothing to do with what an employee is paid.
Would you deprive your kids of a pay rise?

My kids are already well paid, in secure and pensionable jobs, when hundreds of thousands of others in the economy have fallen on tough times, through no fault of their own, over the past 3 months. For the greater good, and looking at the medium and long term, they know a pay rise would be be unjustifiable and deeply unfair.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS!

Teachers' pay and pension must be massively cut. Overpaid and lazy leeches.

[Deleted User]

ok done

had u any other suggestions we'll get right to them