downcow wrote: » Well now junkyard. Is there one single ira murderer that you would say remembering publicly would be obscene.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » You are some of the least self-aware people on the planet.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » What do you mean by publicly? I don't think anyone should be forced to have secret funerals, even the likes of the serial-killers known as Shankill Butchers. Let people bury their dead in peace. It's really weird that Unionists who make a virtue out of glorifying 300-year-old sectarian battles, world wars, mass death in foreign fields, poppies, memorial bands to paramilitaries, monuments, statues, and whatnot whinge about Republicans honouring their dead. You are some of the least self-aware people on the planet.
downcow wrote: » I am surprised just how deep a nerve I have struck with you, Francie and Bonnie. Are you incapable of suggesting an improvement unilaterally? Are you incapable of suggesting you community do the right thing, even just in one single case? Watch what I can do! “Terence McKnight should never ever have a statue, have a play park named after him or in other way have public honouring of him. What he done to ordinary catholic (and Protestant) people was despicable and I would be disgusted if my community wanted to honour him. For me this is irrelevant of what republicans have with their dead” It’s just the right thing to say. That’s fairly clear. No whataboutery. Posters are watching. Can any republican be as clear??
FrancieBrady wrote: » I totally agree with you. Terence McKnight should not get a statue or a park named after him. In fact I will go further than that...NOBODY FROM ANY SIDE involved in the conflict or the running of the sectarian statelet should be memorialised. Will you join me in saying that downcow?
downcow wrote: » Francie. Same old same old. - Let’s make a whataboutery statement that we know is unachievable. It takes balls to identify issues in your own community and speak out about them unilaterally. Easy to lump it in with the ‘others’ I think we have to accept that all republicans on this thread have failed miserably to show any concerns for their neighbours on this issue. Your avoidance is plain for all to see.
FrancieBrady wrote: » You invent statutes that don't exist to rail about. And you rail about them so you can deflect from answering this question, 'Are you willing to have a conversation about existing memorials across the entire north and their removal?' 'What are your proposals re: doing this in a 'unilaterally' fair way?
downcow wrote: » The problem is Francie that you play games of all or nothing, when you know ‘all’ is unachievable - thereby nothing happens. You also talk in vague riddles. But let’s talk existing memorials then if you wish. I again will name existing memorials which my community have been put up in relation to the recent conflict that I believe should be taken down because they are offensive to Catholics. Will you do the same? No more ‘all’, ‘everyone’, ‘them’. Let’s give specific examples. Unless of course you want to duck and dive again
downcow wrote: » There is a lot of ducking and diving going on as usual. The tried and tested method of ‘let’s throw up a few grey areas as red herrings’. It’s a great way of avoiding the issues. Let’s try this! How about we try to name examples of people from our own community who participated in the ‘conflict’ and who we think it would be inappropriate to remember by putting up a statue, memorial stone or naming a play park after. Unless of course you think no one is beyond the pale with regard to publicly remembering? I will start the ball rolling. Michael Stone, Johnny Adair, Billy Hutchinson, And remember I fully respect their families right to remember them quietly and privately in whatever way they wish, but it should absolutely not be done publicly because of the many victims out there still alive. Over to you guys
jm08 wrote: » I see you ignore my point that no one was convicted for the Kingsmills massacre (including Raymond McCreesh). Why do you think that is? Personally, I wouldn't have any public memorials to anyone. I would suggest a memorial garden and put them all in there and bring every child to visit it at least once. As for Michael Stone etc. There are plenty of wall murals to them, so your question is irrelevant as they are being venerated anyway.
downcow wrote: » Jm08. Unfortunately your mask has slipped as well. Let me be categoric with you. I believe memorials to michael stone are inappropriate, offensive and an insult to his victims. They should be taken down now. Irrespective of what republicans do. Now can you say anything similar about ira memorials????
FrancieBrady wrote: » Unbelievable. :rolleyes:
FrancieBrady wrote: » oh..it's 'qualified majorities' now when it comes to a decision? Who was asked about the Carson statue?
downcow wrote: » I completely understand why you would be shocked by anyone identifying issues within their own community. You have a long way to travel to catch up with me. Sadly.
downcow wrote: » One simple sentence from you or Francie would sort it. Or even having the balls to say, “I disagree and while others put up offensive memorials then I am happy republicans put up memorials that offend unionists“ Which is the subtext of what he is saying
gormdubhgorm wrote: » You asked me to give you answer and I did. Since you did not like the answer you resorted to 'what about'. But I gave you the solution in my previous post cross border committees. Committees to decide upon such issues depending on the level of concern caused by memorials, and naming of places and so on. I believe such committees (if properly run) would result in real integration in NI. After meeting up some might even get to know each other and become friends. Paul (Unionist) and Pòl (Nationalist) could discuss thier favorite Liverpool players of all time, over a pint afterwards. Maybe kids of both sides of the divide could become friends as a result. Instead of kids throwing stones at 'Prods'/'Taigs' depending on thier side. Something good could come of it. Who knows such committees might even result in a few 'mixed marriages' if for example committee member Mairead (Catholic - Nationalist) took a fancy to committee member Edward (Protestant-Unionist)? Also places could be named after apolitical things such as a local charity worker who helps the homeless, or some unfortunate local lads who committed suicide. Actually trying to inspire others and make NI a better place. Looking for common humane ground instead of looking for division. It is the only way a real united sense can occur in whatever form a future state could take. Also you are worried about 'honouring the dead'. As you said in the RIC commemoration thread. You said you would be happy if it left to academics, or small local events for local individuals. This is what could be done for anything which some people think should be commemorated but would otherwise caused offence. If a statue or renaming was not permitted by a committee due to its percived contentious nature.Such low key events could be arranged. Unfortunately I think NI has turned into one big 'Nolan show' common sense and decency gets drowned out by loud aggressive voices. Hindering the prospect of any prospect of a UI or a stable UI.
downcow wrote: » This is one of the big problems here. Republicans can never just for ‘the right thing’ It has to be negotiated out of them. No matter what memorials republicans have, I can say categorically that I believe public remembrance of Jonny Adair is wrong, hurtful and simply should not happen. Sad you can’t say same about an ira member who has murdered my community. Actually it is disgusting
downcow wrote: » Guys. I have tried very hard to find a single republican here who has the courage to name one person in their own community who is beyond the pale for a memorial. I have just encountered riddles, waffle, avoidance, unachievable nonsense, whataboutery, etc, etc.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » for any change to really happen the moderates with a bit of cop on will have to take charge
Junkyard Tom wrote: » You have a suspect understanding of Unionism and seem to have been gaslit by it. I'm unaware of Republicans demanding Unionists/loyalists stop remembering their dead. Meanwhile Unionists make a culture out of remembering those who terrorised their nationalist neighbours for decades in the RUC/UDR/UVF and assorted unionist paramilitaries. As for the Downcow challenge as patently ridiculous it is I think the guy who blew up Frizzles Fish shop should be remembered discreetly when he goes and not have a band named after him like Unionists do.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Using internet trendy buzzwords like gaslit are not going to make your arguement seem any stronger. I am made my points perfectly clear. 'Remembering dead' is NI code for winding up the other-side and creating divisiveness . Both sides do it. But it does not seem to be the done thing to say it. I don't want all this codology brought in the ROI I believe all this little things add up and increase bitterness. I think until this is sorted out a UI will not work, the middle ground will be put by it. As I said in a previous post I suggest events from academics or local levels. And cross community committees who can decide on rename places and so on. What is wrong with that? As they up North they should 'catch themselves on'. And stop the pantomimes of piss taking.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » I don't want all this codology brought in the ROI I believe all this little things add up and increase bitterness. I think until this is sorted out a UI will not work, the middle ground will be put by it.
Fionn1952 wrote: » A term from the 1930s/40s is an internet trendy buzzword now, GDG?!?
Junkyard Tom wrote: » This is largely caused by partition itself and Republicanism doesn't stop at where the border was. I fully expect moderates to inherit the north in the wake of a United Ireland particularly former unionists as the 'never, never, never' unionists of yesteryear will have nothing to offer, or gain, by playing the 'Lundy' card against their own.
