What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Deleted User wrote: »

Err....

I'm starting to see a trend with the lack of logic going around.

I'm kind of glad you got the point.

Clarence Boddiker

Here's a bunch of NGO personnel asking "how do we undermine the ethnic aspect of Irish identity?

joe40

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

The problem is that there are many Irish who associate everything, every aspect of our past, our culture, with backwardness and Catholicism. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Maybe there are some, but I still find Irish people to be generally patriotic, and appreciative of Irish culture, music, Gaelic games etc.

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Yes, all of a sudden, I seem to have hit a nerve.

Err....

I'm starting to see a trend with the lack of logic going around.

Deleted User wrote: »

I really don't understand the need to offer absolutes or extremes, as if it's all or zero multiculturalism.

Nobody is suggesting closing all borders, and fighting off all foreign influence with spearpoints at the ready.

Yes, all of a sudden, I seem to have hit a nerve.

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

The problem is that there are many Irish who associate everything, every aspect of our past, our culture, with backwardness and Catholicism. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

The problem with apologists of backwardness in their own culture is that they are less convincing when explaining away the same in other cultures. And vice versa, and on and on.

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Well Okay then, let's do away with all the foreign influences altogether and go back to the bog and dig peet for chri'n out loud, do away with the Irish pubs in Paris and Tokyo while you are at it.

I'd strip the Riverdancers myself and paint them all in blue, give them bows and arrows, no spotlights, no electric harps.

I really don't understand the need to offer absolutes or extremes, as if it's all or zero multiculturalism.

Nobody is suggesting closing all borders, and fighting off all foreign influence with spearpoints at the ready.

Clarence Boddiker

joe40 wrote: »

Well that edit makes your post a bit confusing.

If I understand you correctly you seem to be critical of social change in Ireland or at least suggest Europeans are critical of the social change, but at the same time you would not want to return to those times.

So which is it 1980s Ireland or 2020 Ireland.

That was also quite a big statement to assign a single unified opinion of Ireland to millions of Europeans.

The problem is that there are many Irish who associate everything, every aspect of our past, our culture, with backwardness and Catholicism. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Wibbs wrote: »

Positive. For a colony that required mass numbers of people from elsewhere to exist in the first place and grow thereafter. I don't see how this is difficult to understand or to understand the differences.

There are parts of Dublin that are becoming less native Irish over time and over the last ten to fifteen years. Not a shock as people almost inevitably coalesce together among their "own", often around religious community settings, but also retail centres and the like.

*Heads keyboard* No. I am saying using ex colonies that depended on "multiculturalism" immigration to simply exist as examples of the positives of this idea is not comparable to European(or other) non colonies and is beyond silly. Never mind that they were not exactly multicultural for most of their history and still have major issues today along "race" lines, or have you missed the whole BLM marches and protests?

I am also looking at the decades long examples of European states that have embraced this politic, or were forced to because of a colonial past and their experiences and the extra social pressures up to outright social disorder and don't want that for this country or any other that has so far escaped this politic. And no, "exotic" cafes dont really serve as a prize. Booby prize maybe.

Well Okay then, let's do away with all the foreign influences altogether and go back to the bog and dig peet for chri'n out loud, do away with the Irish pubs in Paris and Tokyo while you are at it.

I'd strip the Riverdancers myself and paint them all in blue, give them bows and arrows, no spotlights, no electric harps.

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

You're just one member of the diaspora, there are others who do not share your view. I have friends in Aussie, Canada etc who are in a state of absolute shock and despair at whats happening to Ireland.

I read a very interesting article a while back (which I'm trying to find) which said that respect for the Irish has plummeted across the continent.
Italians, Germans, French etc used to view Ireland as a nation that stubbornly held on to its traditions and culture in the face of modernity, this was something they admired greatly. They saw Ireland as the last vestiges of a Celtic, agrarian, rural society which had once existed across Europe.
But the Irish, being consumed with self loathing and a gigantic inferiority complex have desperately cast off anything remotely associated with their traditional culture and tried (still) to be the most modern nation in Europe, culturally, morally etc
The point of the thesis was there was a huge sense of disgust at the fact that whilst other European nations had a very long and drawn out separation from Catholicism for example, the Irish in a few decades went from very Catholic to the complete opposite. Almost maniacally denouncing their own past, desperate to be seen as anything but 'old' Irish. Embarrassed by that which ironically others admired in us.
And this desperation to cast off every semblance of their culture and to be like the others has paradoxically destroyed the respect the continental nations had for us.

Edit: I'm not saying that Ireland should return to a pseudo theocratic state. But you get the picture.

Yes, I do get the picture of a nation that forsook the old ties to the church, and this is not a reason for disrespect, not is it convincing to me. My part of the world had church-ridden aspects which were done away with a little earlier than Ireland. I think for the most part, the shock is, as Wibbs would qualify it; "sentimental".

On the other hand, you also are dismayed at France, or Germany for their great numbers of foreigners, and the alleged civilizational decline that has ensued. I just as the next guy enjoy the products of Irish culture, but you know, for a long time, many luminaries chose to leave Ireland for greener pastures in order for ideas to "bloom", no pun intended.

Wibbs wrote: »

There are parts of Dublin that are becoming less native Irish over time and over the last ten to fifteen years. Not a shock as people almost inevitably coalesce together among their "own", often around religious community settings, but also retail centres and the like.

So they are not native?

joe40

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

You're just one member of the diaspora, there are others who do not share your view. I have friends in Aussie, Canada etc who are in a state of absolute shock and despair at whats happening to Ireland.

I read a very interesting article a while back (which I'm trying to find) which said that respect for the Irish has plummeted across the continent.
Italians, Germans, French etc used to view Ireland as a nation that stubbornly held on to its traditions and culture in the face of modernity, this was something they admired greatly. They saw Ireland as the last vestiges of a Celtic, agrarian, rural society which had once existed across Europe.
But the Irish, being consumed with self loathing and a gigantic inferiority complex have desperately cast off anything remotely associated with their traditional culture and tried (still) to be the most modern nation in Europe, culturally, morally etc
The point of the thesis was there was a huge sense of disgust at the fact that whilst other European nations had a very long and drawn out separation from Catholicism for example, the Irish in a few decades went from very Catholic to the complete opposite. Almost maniacally denouncing their own past, desperate to be seen as anything but 'old' Irish. Embarrassed by that which ironically others admired in us.
And this desperation to cast off every semblance of their culture and to be like the others has paradoxically destroyed the respect the continental nations had for us.

Edit: I'm not saying that Ireland should return to a pseudo theocratic state. But you get the picture.

Well that edit makes your post a bit confusing.

If I understand you correctly you seem to be critical of social change in Ireland or at least suggest Europeans are critical of the social change, but at the same time you would not want to return to those times.

So which is it 1980s Ireland or 2020 Ireland.

That was also quite a big statement to assign a single unified opinion of Ireland to millions of Europeans.

Wibbs

Slowyourrole wrote: »

Do you think the large amount of Irish that travelled to the USA had an overall positive or negative effect?

Positive. For a colony that required mass numbers of people from elsewhere to exist in the first place and grow thereafter. I don't see how this is difficult to understand or to understand the differences.

What enclaves?

There are parts of Dublin that are becoming less native Irish over time and over the last ten to fifteen years. Not a shock as people almost inevitably coalesce together among their "own", often around religious community settings, but also retail centres and the like.

You're using colonial countries as examples of what could happen in Ireland. Isn't there a difference there? Seems you're happy to ignore the differences when it suits your narrative.

*Heads keyboard* No. I am saying using ex colonies that depended on "multiculturalism" immigration to simply exist as examples of the positives of this idea is not comparable to European(or other) non colonies and is beyond silly. Never mind that they were not exactly multicultural for most of their history and still have major issues today along "race" lines, or have you missed the whole BLM marches and protests?

I am also looking at the decades long examples of European states that have embraced this politic, or were forced to because of a colonial past and their experiences and the extra social pressures up to outright social disorder and don't want that for this country or any other that has so far escaped this politic. And no, "exotic" cafes dont really serve as a prize. Booby prize maybe.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This is pie in the sky though.

Why do people have to leave to find jobs then?

Pie in the sky? You managed to watch a 10 minute video in... 3 minutes? Impressive.

Nah. I'm done. I'll leave it to others to chase around in circles with you.

Clarence Boddiker

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

To me, as a member of the diaspora.

You're just one member of the diaspora, there are others who do not share your view. I have friends in Aussie, Canada etc who are in a state of absolute shock and despair at whats happening to Ireland.

I read a very interesting article a while back (which I'm trying to find) which said that respect for the Irish has plummeted across the continent.
Italians, Germans, French etc used to view Ireland as a nation that stubbornly held on to its traditions and culture in the face of modernity, this was something they admired greatly. They saw Ireland as the last vestiges of a Celtic, agrarian, rural society which had once existed across Europe.
But the Irish, being consumed with self loathing and a gigantic inferiority complex have desperately cast off anything remotely associated with their traditional culture and tried (still) to be the most modern nation in Europe, culturally, morally etc
The point of the thesis was there was a huge sense of disgust at the fact that whilst other European nations had a very long and drawn out separation from Catholicism for example, the Irish in a few decades went from very Catholic to the complete opposite. Almost maniacally denouncing their own past, desperate to be seen as anything but 'old' Irish. Embarrassed by that which ironically others admired in us.
And this desperation to cast off every semblance of their culture and to be like the others has paradoxically destroyed the respect the continental nations had for us.

Edit: I'm not saying that Ireland should return to a pseudo theocratic state. But you get the picture.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Of course they will stop caring in a university where their every move is noted and toted up to social credit. Or rather appearing to care. Its too dangerous.

How you posting on boards from china? No one can right now not even through vpn.

I've been home since January. Came home for a holiday, and been stuck here since.

And you're misinformed again. VPNs are working in China, it's just difficult to find a stable connection. Also... I don't need a VPN to access boards while in China.

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5vsnX1UD1w

Have a watch. Pretty good account...

This is pie in the sky though.

Why do people have to leave to find jobs then?

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They can't really afford to.

If we could tackle the housing issue and convince the govt actually we reeealy have NOT recovered ..then we might help them. But with a right wing ideology prob not going to happen.

A right wing ideology?

Oh lord. I give up.

Deleted User wrote: »

I live and teach at universities in China. You don't know what you're talking about. Chinese students will talk up human rights because they're studying in the West... but the moment they return to mainland China, they'll stop caring. Because it's not relevant to their lives. That's the essence of Chinese culture for normal people. What is practically relevant to their lives while living in China.

Of course they will stop caring in a university where their every move is noted and toted up to social credit. Or rather appearing to care. Its too dangerous.

How you posting on boards from china? No one can right now not even through vpn.

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

I agree with you on some points, but really, if Ireland is an expensive and desirable country, it is because it has a worldly component. It would not have had the success it had in the past thirty years without its worldliness in business, and playing its EU cards right, digging in when Russia was opening up to capitalism, etc...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5vsnX1UD1w

Have a watch. Pretty good account...

Deleted User wrote: »

And the Irish who left during the recessions? Those who left within the last twenty years, and would like to return but can't really afford to?

They can't really afford to.

If we could tackle the housing issue and convince the govt actually we reeealy have NOT recovered ..then we might help them. But with a right wing ideology prob not going to happen.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

It really DOES matter to them. I know a lot of young chinese people.

I mean they have even invented a new term ..formalism.

I live and teach at universities in China. You don't know what you're talking about. Chinese students will talk up human rights because they're studying in the West... but the moment they return to mainland China, they'll stop caring. Because it's not relevant to their lives. That's the essence of Chinese culture for normal people. What is practically relevant to their lives while living in China.

OMM 0000

RyanthePirate wrote: »

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and thus immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the country.

Agree/Disagree?

Your sentence is a bit of a trick. Let's break it down into it's two parts:

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy

thus immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the country.

So, assuming a country has a sensible immigration policy where its own citizens come first and immigrants are brought in on the basis of filling some skills or knowledge gaps, then the first part is probably fair, because you use the wording net positive.

But the second sentence then converts this into being wonderful.

That's not the correct word and is disconnected from the first sentence.

So I disagree.

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, no... not really. Many Irish are returning because Ireland provides economic success and employment. It's seen as being a traditionally stable environment to raise a family, as opposed to the melting pots internationally. That's changing though, unfortunately.

If the government really wanted Irish people to return, they'd simply offer some financial incentives such as some support in settling here. It's really quite expensive to return to Ireland after living abroad, and something that prevents many expats from returning.

I agree with you on some points, but really, if Ireland is an expensive and desirable country, it is because it has a worldly component. It would not have had the success it had in the past thirty years without its worldliness in business, and playing its EU cards right, digging in when Russia was opening up to capitalism, etc...

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I think he means diaspora returning not to live but for tourism.

Irish people who left coming home do so because this is where they have roots.

You won't get an Irish American uprooting here to look for a job and to start a family.

But they might come here for a year to visit or something.

And the Irish who left during the recessions? Those who left within the last twenty years, and would like to return but can't really afford to?

Deleted User wrote: »

Duh. Of course it doesn't. I didn't reply to it, because it's so obvious.. hardly needs an affirmative.

But the fact that you believe their human rights record matters to young Chinese people, simply shows just how little you understand about Chinese culture and Chinese people.

It really DOES matter to them. I know a lot of young chinese people.

I mean they have even invented a new term ..formalism.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You think china has a good human rights record?

Duh. Of course it doesn't. I didn't reply to it, because it's so obvious.. hardly needs an affirmative.

But the fact that you believe their human rights record matters to young Chinese people, simply shows just how little you understand about Chinese culture and Chinese people.

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Did you come back?

I've been back on vacation, I lived in Dublin in the eighties. But I am Canadian, and really enjoy my life here. But Dublin would be high up in my places to live.

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, no... not really. Many Irish are returning because Ireland provides economic success and employment. It's seen as being a traditionally stable environment to raise a family, as opposed to the melting pots internationally. That's changing though, unfortunately.

If the government really wanted Irish people to return, they'd simply offer some financial incentives such as some support in settling here. It's really quite expensive to return to Ireland after living abroad, and something that prevents many expats from returning.

I think he means diaspora returning not to live but for tourism.

Irish people who left coming home do so because this is where they have roots.

You won't get an Irish American uprooting here to look for a job and to start a family.

But they might come here for a year to visit or something.