BloodyBill wrote: » The Dub Carson didnt murder anyone. He was a politician. This assertion that he re introduced the gun into Irish politics is a fair argument but he killed no one. The likes of the IRA 'heros' murdered unarmed innocent people . They deserve nothing and their families deserve nothing . How the people in NI put up with memorials to McCreesh ect .that I do not know. We wouldnt accept it down here.
jm08 wrote: » When you say innocent people, do you regard the British military, RUC, UDR etc. as fair game? Carson & Craig created the Ulster Volunteers, who supported armed insurrection against the British State. They have blood on their hands.
BloodyBill wrote: » So the counter is to name their pitches and parks after bomb makers and gunmen...that's sad.
downcow wrote: » .... Absolutely, and we should never forget that there was one Catholic on the bus. They asked for Catholics to step forward and his Protestant workmates tried to shield and hide him as they thought he would be the target. Instead he was told to run away while all the Protestants were murdered. It is quite incredible that a playpark could be named after the person who done this. But clearly some people think that is okay
The report given to the Sunday World reveals how the RUC and British Army knew the IRA murderer was being treated in Louth county hospital in Dundalk but made no attempt to have him arrested and extradited. The failure to bring the Provo to justice has led to suspicions that the man – who has never been prosecuted despite extensive paramilitary involvement – was a British agent. The killer can't be named for legal reasons. 'P' is from the south Armagh village of Belleek but now lives in the Republic.
FrancieBrady wrote: » The usual kneejerkers don't realise how accommodating nationalists and republicans are to the trappings and iconography of a sectarian bigoted state. It's all around them in the north.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » Can we add any monuments honouring the British Army, UDR, USC and RUC seeing as they murdered lots of innocent men, women and children?
downcow wrote: » Can we agree that there is no one in my list that does not fall into that category
BonnieSituation wrote: » And then we'll have the bellows about taking down O'Connell and Parnell. I also think that the Carson statue should be removed from where it stands though. It's a very divisive place to have a divisive statue in front of a divisive building. But I'm definitely not for erasing history completely. Edit: also rename Craigavon
FrancieBrady wrote: » Carson along with Craig raised a private militia and armed them...that 'terrorised' people and politicians, which is what was intended. He was a terrorist therefore. Are you in favour of a cross community ban on memorials to those who fought? This would include 'naming public infrastructure, statutes, monuments, murals, the wearing of Lillies or Poppies etc. It is either cross community or not at all IMO. I would be in favour of removing them all. However I am pragmatic about it, I think we can find a way to allow people to remember their dead with respect.
downcow wrote: » This is what sf are doing with victims compensation. We will never agree on the extremes so we need to reach agreement where we can. Could we not agree a good place to start would be slave traders, child abusers, rapists who have need up being publicly remembered, followed by those who we all agree went out in the dead of night, with no uniform and murdered and tortured people because of their religion or because the disagreed politically with them. And without majority support within even their own community Can we agree that there is no one in my list that does not fall into that category
FrancieBrady wrote: » So you would be in favour of taking down the statute of Carson if asked? And all the loyalist memorials as well? There are almost a 100 of them in Belfast alone. I don't have any time for it myself...so if it is all coming down then I am fine with that.
downcow wrote: » Francie, I have total compassion for terrorists families. Absolutely they need to be able to remember them. But it needs to be done in private so as not to further traumatise their victims. That would seem like a very reasonable request. Actually I cannot see any reason a family would want to do it any other way. Sinn Fein are actually abusing the memory of these people. At child abusers family has every right to quietly and privately remember them, but when they do it publicly, and windup the people who were abused, then it is simply obscene
gormdubhgorm wrote: » I would prefer if this martyrdom of the dead, who killed other people stopped. It is why Ireland is in the trouble it is in the first place..
FrancieBrady wrote: » Let's stop the bull**** and the onesided stuff here: Answer these questions and we'll see where we are at: 1: Should people be allowed to remember their dead (regardless of how you think of them) 2: If your answer to 1. is NO then how do you apply that democratically? I await your answers with bated breath.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Raymond McCreesh was involved in the murder of 10 protestant work men is that not inflamatory enough? Maybe if it was 11 it might have tipped it over the edge? And I am aware how it was named on consensus that makes it seem even worse. The SDLP thankfully are coming to thier senses on it.https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/sdlp-leadership-backs-renaming-of-raymond-mccreesh-park-36815769.html How were they even 'legitimate targets' in SF speak?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsmill_massacre I think all the symbolism should be toned down or got rid of completely from both sides of it. All the Royal preffixs dropped. And sides stop naming places after people who murdered each other and dressed it up as war. If people like you have this unbending attitude FrancieBrady there will NEVER be a UI. I am not even a Unionist, and I find your attitude a bit sickening if I am honest. You say you want a UI but you don't really want inclusion you just hope the Unionists will know thier place and put up with it. You were the same fella who was up in arms over an RIC commemoration. Yet can see nothing wrong with naming places after fellas who killed unarmed civilians like McCreesh did. But I suppose the 'nobleness' of the republican hunger strike blinds you to any negative view?
gormdubhgorm wrote: » I will answer that question with quote from a man from a border county. I would prefer if this martyrdom of the dead, who killed other people stopped. It is why Ireland is in the trouble it is in the first place. But if this is not possible. In order for it to be democratic a vote should be taken from all sides of the divide at the appropriate level - relative to the level of concern. If a qualified majority is reached two thirds, only then should a name change etc be accepted. In doing so far less controversial figures can be celebrated that both sides respect, or are at least not offended by.
FrancieBrady wrote: » As long as the motive is remembrance and it isn't done to taunt, triumphalise or enflame, I have no problem with either side doing it.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Zero concessions to belligerent Unionists. No problem discussing every aspect of a new Ireland with anyone willing to be moderate and democratic. I have said more than once that flags and anthems matter not a bit to me. I would vote against joining the Commonwealth on EU and monarchy grounds. If a majority decide they want to do it...fine by me. Regarding McCreesh...that park was named on foot of a proposal supported by SF the SDLP and independents. There is very little to be gained from disallowing people from remembering their dead, both sides have 'dead'. It isn't hard to accommodate if you accept that there are as many symbols of remembrance to British oppression and Loyalism as there are Republican memorials.As long as the motive is remembrance and it isn't done to taunt, triumphalise or enflame, I have no problem with either side doing it.
Brendan Bendar wrote: » Francie, I have to say not in an insulting way or anything like that but your lack of common sense and how other people view things astounds me! Not withstanding the person involved how you could try to spin the naming of that play area was anything but inflammatory. Now I am not interested in dancing on the head of a pin for 30 or 40 posts, but to any right minded person, irrespective of leaning, irrespective of siding, that did nothing to advance a UI. And as I keep saying, there’s the reason why the ROI, by and large want nothing to do with that kind of surreptitious fccccukery. Open your eyes,dude, come out of the caves and the windswept glens.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Zero concessions to belligerent Unionists. No problem discussing every aspect of a new Ireland with anyone willing to be moderate and democratic. I have said more than once that flags and anthems matter not a bit to me. I would vote against joining the Commonwealth on EU and monarchy grounds. If a majority decide they want to do it...fine by me. Regarding McCreesh...that park was named on foot of a proposal supported by SF the SDLP and independents. There is very little to be gained from disallowing people from remembering their dead, both sides have 'dead'. It isn't hard to accommodate if you accept that there are as many symbols of remembrance to British oppression and Loyalism as there are Republican memorials. As long as the motive is remembrance and it isn't done to taunt, triumphalise or enflame, I have no problem with either side doing it.
FrancieBrady wrote: » What would be the 'motive' behind remembering them Brendan? McCreesh was memorialised on foot of an application supported by SF, SDLP and Independents. Do applications have to be run by you...is that what you are saying here? You are either in favour of allowing people remember their dead or you are not. If you aren't then the only democratic way to do that is stop every side from doing it.
Brendan Bendar wrote: » What kind of a stupid statement is that? Is there a ‘Hitler Memorial Park’ anywhere around. Is there a ‘Jimmy Saville Sports Centre’ around. I have heard challenged statements made, but that one takes the biscuit. The mind boggles.
