Wibbs wrote: » Marginalisation happens. It is pretty much inevitable. It's down to human nature and observable throughout our history and while yes optimistic and kind to think we can change this nature it's naive in the extreme. Take a multicultural nation like Brazil, a major so called "melting pot" of different ethnicities and "races" and after centuries of living together, look at the genetics. People who look African have majority African DNA, those that look European have majority European DNA and so forth. We see similar throughout the world and our history. People don't tend to mix except under duresses like colonisation, invasion and slavery. This notion that some hold that at some time in the future humanity will be mostly tanned brown eyed people all mixed up together is a pipe dream, and actually would be a nightmare and bad for us as a species to lose our genetic diversity. Never mind that again it assumes that what the pale of skin and blue of eye need is more melanin. And again the same people wouldn't dream of suggesting that what the darker of skin need is less melanin. This marginalisation and separation is already happening in Ireland along skin colour lines and we've only been in the multicultural game for less than two decades and by comparison with other multicultural nations far fewer numbers. The pattern remains the same everywhere. Small numbers of non indigenous people tend to "fit in" and works well enough, but there is a point where the numbers grow and people quite naturally want to cluster together with others like themselves and create largely separate communities. This goes quadruple for demographics that look distinct and/or have very distinct cultural differences from the native populations. So Africans in Ireland are going to separate far more than Poles and this difference gets wider with each generation. The same would happen if 60,000 White Irish people showed up in Nigeria. They would inevitably coalesce into their own separate communities and would establish a White ghetto. In long standing multiethnic colonies like the US etc, you get Italian quarters, Chinatowns etc. Again human nature.
Tony EH wrote: » That's a big assumption to make based on ONE cartoon picture. :pac:
ExMachina1000 wrote: » Sounds like a mickey mouse company who shouldn't be tasked with government contracts in the future
Tony EH wrote: » Designer oversight probably. Images like the one in question are usually ratted off very quickly. They're a small time gig. I don't think anyone is thinking about it too deeply, to be honest. They (maybe a female) were probably told don't forget to include x and y and they went ahead and knocked up something fast.
olestoepoke wrote: » That's fair enough but why aren't white Irish men represented in the poster?
Tony EH wrote: » Seriously though, regarding the picture in question, that has more to do with trying to head off the mouthy types at the pass more than anything else. I don't think there's any great plan to try and influence Irish people into a way of thinking or anything. In my years, I used to work as a designer and all too often when dealing with the UK and, especially, with the US market, I had to make sure to include some sort of minority images as mandated by the clients in those markets. It's largely an ass covering exercise to avoid any kind of bad publicity. I'd imagine that anything coming from a gov.ie site would be eager to do that.
Wibbs wrote: » So the only options you can see are "totally made up box ticking wincingly obvious nonsense that doesn't reflect reality" or "fear and intolerance"? No wonder the flagwavers for diversity have no workable solutions to offer. BTW you missed the cat.
Hamachi wrote: » Yep; This chimes with my experience too. Nor is it a uniquely Irish phenomenon. I spent a few weeks in Toronto with work late last year. Toronto is the self-proclaimed multicultural capital of the world. Whilst there are a decent amount of White man / East Asian woman couples, it was very noticeable how few white Canadian women were in interracial relationships. No idea what’s driving the dynamics behind this, but it’s a pretty consistent pattern in multiethnic societies.
larva wrote: » So, what? nobody travels to other countries and isnt moving freely right now? And getting on with other, talking about where they are from, their own homes and families, integrating and the like. You yourself are just repeating the same stuff without offering any solution and seem very narrow minded about the future.
Wibbs wrote: » So you got nada, just repeating what you already believe? So what constitutes open conversation? It appears to be; you believe in the right for anyone to go anywhere - which doesn't really exist by the by - and this should be embraced and that's that, or it doesn't succeed. Well OK, how does it get this embrace? How do we stop marginalisation? How do we stop ghettoisation? How do we stop racism? There may be no "MAGIC FORMULA" but you're not even offering up a single solution to any of it, beyond some vague "embrace". I doubt your open conversation includes those who say nope, don't want this diversity stuff thanks very much. BTW I love that you lump in warfare under free movement of people as a right. You couldn't make this up.
Wibbs wrote: » Funny enough ditto. While I have generally found more Irish women that I know and have known open to the idea of multiculturalism as a notion, I have found more Irish men that I know to be against it, yet more open to relationships with non local women.
Limpy wrote: » I know many Europeans who are not white and practise Islamic religion. They are EU citizens born in EU countries.
Hamachi wrote: » As opposed to you, who has nothing of value to offer?
larva wrote: » Its called free movement of people. Whatever term you want to put on it, or however its comes about, multiculturism, warfare, free choice, it is a right that all people have, the right to move freely. It has to be first embraced or it doesnt have a hope of succeeding. There isnt any MAGIC FORMULA and its is a struggle but having an open conversation about it and highlighting all the issues its brings is the only way forward.
larva wrote: » He does speak a lot of Spanish
joe40 wrote: » All these things happen, that is true. So as a country we can either stop immigration and keep the country as monocultural as possible. That would prevent the things you talk about, and many people would strongly support that view I don't know where you stand yourself.
If however if one accepts that immigration is going to happen and there are going to be different cultures, ethnicities and Skin colour living here, then I think it is wise for the government and society in general to promote inclusion and equality to try to prevent the problems that arose through segregation in other countries.
The only alternative is no immigration, like Russia or China. I personally wouldn't like our society to be like those countries.
I think Ireland is going to have immigrants the debate should be how to best manage that now and into the future. How are we going to function as a society with second and third generation immigrants. I have 2 teenagers and granted I don't live in Dublin but so far the immigration and cultures they have experienced has been very positive. National schools worked very hard to help that process.
Hamachi wrote: » Can you engage with Wibbs’ argument instead of resorting to hyperbole? The better approach for the government to adopt is to actually implement a skills-based migration policy that works for this country. This would eliminate fear and intolerance at source.
Rockbeast2 wrote: » In my experience I've found that more white male friends and acquaintances have relationships with other colors/races than white females would!
Wibbs wrote: » If legal, C. Or B. A wouldn't be any issue if they're settled Travellers. I've known a few in my time and were sound. Scrapyards out back and caravans everywhere, nope. How? Other nations have tried and yet still end up with the same problems down the line. Again how are we going to be different? We're already seeing ghettoisation in action and we're only two decades in and with a small non native population compared to others. Citation needed. How is it a "natural evolution of our species"? The history and evolution of our species has been a long list of conquest, assimilation, even extinction of competing groups. That's "natural". Multiculturalism would actually be the "unnatural" state. You can't reset human nature in a couple of generations. Now I've heard the argument that oh well we went from Catholic Ireland to divorce, choice and Gay marriage so aren't we so progressive and we can handle multiculturalism too.... Slight problem with that. All of those have been present throughout human history across many different cultures already. They have been acceptable before. They wax and wane over time. Thing is tribalism and group affiliation even up to all out racism are even more writ through our species and across damned near every culture and time. Most successful nations throughout history did just that. Those that were "multicultural" were so through imperial domination. Never mind that just because you don't have large populations of non natives, doesn't make a country isolated and removed. I don't see how nationhood is so denigrated, though it's almost exclusively denigrated among White nations. Few Asians or Africans would hold the same view. The vast majority are very proud of their nationhood and cultures. They certainly don't have the gra to water to down with outsiders for "diversity". It's a recent thing with White thought on the matter. Post world war two really. The thumbnail sketch being nations caused that, therefore nations baaaaad m'kay. There's a few things going on there. The usual "ah sure the Irish emigrated too" as one example. And a common one. Difference being for the vast majority of that history the same Irish people had to sink or swim in their adoptive, usually colonial nations. There was no social welfare outside the gates of Ellis island. Then we have the "we're bringing in doctors" angle. Yup and I would bet the farm nobody has an issue with qualified people of any background coming to this country. How many of the influx two decades ago were educated professionals coming here legally? How many of the so called "refugees" crossing the Mediterranean in rubber dinghies today are? And there's nothing hidden about the different skin colour equals different treatment. It's quite overt. And largely intractable, unless the different skin colour is a novelty as a tiny minority. As for multiculturalism as a choice. That's the problem, it hasn't been. In Ireland it happened on the back of a "boom" and a legal loophole, one the Irish people latterly rejected by a large majority. I wonder if the same electorate had been asked to vote before we got "diversity" dropped on us, would they have voted no. I'd bet they would. And even if it's a choice, again how do we magically avoid the problems of every other nation that has struggled with it. Please tell us. I hear this a lot, but nobody comes up with actual workable solutions that take into account human nature and history. It's just the usual happy clappy talk of "inclusion" and "good feelings". And that doesn't seem to be working.
larva wrote: » There is even a DOG in the picture too, ohh the HORROR of it all!!? The end is NIGH!! Would spreading the fear and intolerance be a better approach for government to adopt?
Deleted User wrote: » We signed up for free movement of Europeans and those with valid visas. We didn't sign up for what has evolved from the original agreement. Except that's not the case. France is pretty much the only colonial nation apart from Belgium who gave citizenship to their colonies and encouraged them to come to Europe. The BE never encouraged their colonials of other racial groups to come to Britain as cheap labor. Most modern racial diversity is the result of Germany importing Turks, which fed into the EU encouraging the importation of cheap labor. A modern phenomenon rather than a result of colonialsim... When do people stop paying for the behavior of their great grandparents? How many generations before they can't be blamed for behavior long before they were born and capable of affecting events? Huh? This part makes no sense to me, considering what you said previously.
Limpy wrote: » If anyone on here had a house next door that was to giving to a stereotypical: A. Irish Traveller family. B. Irish council estate family C. Non white immigrant family Who would you prefer as your neighbor's?
larva wrote: » I would be against forced multiculturalism but its here and we have to face it otherwise we will repeat the mistakes of other countries and of history.
Its wrong to say that it doesnt work entirely or has never produced any benefits, it is in essence, a natural evolution of our species.
No one nation has any god given right to exclude another human-being from being allowed to enter their country, that is simply national ghettoism on a global stage, a country that doesnt allow for multiculturalism is a ghetto of its own people, isolated and removed from the rest of the world.
Forced multiculturalism, resulting from say a large group of people arriving on a boats fleeing a famine, has many challenges, exploitation, fear of the unknown, slavery and so on. I example the way white Irish immigrants were looked at by English and Americans when we moved into their territory, we were seen as black to them (No Irish and no blacks wanted posters anyone?). and yes we too did form into our own little groups and areas until we eventually were accepted and then we thrived in their culture while expressing our own. Non white people have a much tougher time integrating simple because of the colour of their skin, its a hidden feature in the human psyche that just because someone looks different to your own eyes that you cannot accept them just for who they are, mere humans. If multiculturalism is a choice, done in a way thats for the benefits of both parties it can and does work. We are bringing in educated people, doctors for example, who are replacing those Irish born doctors who have moved to Australia or wherever, its a revolving system we are very much part of ourselves.
iebamm2580 wrote: » TBF that Justin barrett who is a bit of a weirdo and o doherty are outright racists, hazel chu said on the show about the far right gaining traction, 1 of the journalists put it very well when he said if people are going to be labelled racist for questioning immigration they will eventually say to hell with it and vote that way, open discussion is all most people in the middle want. Controlled immigration is ideal and does add to the country when integration is done correctly with manageable numbers.
Limpy wrote: » We signed up for open borders When we joined the EU.
Many of the EU countries like the UK, France had plundered many non European countries and colonised them. So the people of those countries were brought back for cheap labour and were giving citizenship.
If you dont like people who want to keep the traditions alive then your angry at the wrong people. I suppose drunk Paddy culture was left in Ireland when any Irish person left the shores.
Wibbs wrote: » I'd be of the keep the country as "monocultural" as possible. Certainly I'd be majorly against the numbers of illegals that showed up here in the late 90's early noughties, but sadly that ship has sailed and we'll be dealing with the BS from it for generations. I take issue with some attempts to ignore Irish democracy and being back the legislation that encouraged popping out babies for Irish passports. I've no issue with legal migration here. I've also no issue with genuine refugees. Neither groups tend towards ghettoisation and social issues. Well China is already "multicultural" with many different ethnicities involved, but as usual one, the Han dominate the culture and narrative. Like every so called multicultural nation. Like I have always contended multiculturalism and diversity is a laudable and optimistic dream, but that's what it remains; a dream. I really don't see how Ireland will magically avoid the issues of every single other multicultural nation, particularly in Europe. I don't see how we're any different. Indeed Irish culture is actually more clannish than most. We already have an ethnic underclass and attendant social issues which seem to be increasing rather than not and Travellers are White and Irish. Speaking of hamfisted: I had a look in the Gov.ie page that hosted that above image and found another. Three White fellas. Bejaysus. And a White Lesbian couple with a Black child. Ticking the boxes folks. Rural areas will be largely free from the side effects of "diversity", historically it's almost always urban areas and urbanites that take the hit.
If however if one accepts that immigration is going to happen and there are going to be different cultures, ethnicities and Skin colour living here, then I think it is wise for the government and society in general to promote inclusion and equality to try to prevent the problems that arose through segregation in other countries. The picture you posted earlier is obviously ham fisted nonsense but it is better than the American experience where black people were largely absent from popular culture, despite making up a significant proportion of the country since it's foundation. I'm not naive enough to think these sorts of gestures on their own will fix things but it's all part of a process. It is very easy to point out all the problems that exist in other countries, but we can try to learn from that. The only alternative is no immigration, like Russia or China. I personally wouldn't like our society to be like those countries.
I have 2 teenagers and granted I don't live in Dublin but so far the immigration and cultures they have experienced has been very positive. National schools worked very hard to help that process.
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