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Messy farm inheritance issue

roosky

Hi all,

I have a friend involved in a messy issue and I would appreciate your opinions on it as she came to me for advice and i want to have a balanced point to make.

Okay so her father and mother have a 80 acre sucker farm, she is actively involved in the farm and also does all book work and herd health and breeding decisions. Working away from home but home every weekend working on farm and takes holidays for calving etc...

She plans to return home in next two years to farm with father (will also have off farm job) and to live on farm or locally. She has two brothers living in Dublin with good jobs and no interest in farming and have no involvement in the farm or never had.

The parents have decided to split the farm equally between the three kids and said one can buy out the other if they want to farm.....obviously buying your home farm even at 2/3 of market value is not an attractive option and planning life and career around a 25 odd acre farm is silly.

Do you feel she has reason to feel upset and let down by her parents as she feels if she was an only son working in agri industry, actively involved in the family farm, planning on moving home and farming and had two sisters with no interest in the farm that the farm would not be split three ways and left unviable looking forward.

Are her parents doing the fairest thing or are they being silly to have a child interested in carrying on the family farm and letting that opportunity slip in the interest of “fairness” regardless of the gender thing ??

TIA

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[Deleted User]

blackbox wrote: »

Correct - I am not from a farming background, but will you allow that perhaps that might give me a more objective view.

Unless there are truly exceptional circumstances (e.g. criminality) I would treat my adult children equally. If I have an asset - property, a business, a farm etc. I would consider it only fair to divide it between them. If one child has been working in the business I would have been paying him or her an appropriate wage. At any stage they would have been free to look for a better job elsewhere.

Each child has a choice (they are adults!) on what to do with his or her inheritance. If they think it is not viable as a source of income they can sell it and work at something else. If they can afford to buy it from the others for a hobby, fair dues to them.

I see complaints above that you can't make money out of farming. I think these actually strengthen my argument. Land is hugely over-valued for the returns that can be achieved from it.

Splitting up farms ruins them, splitting a farm equally among a few children is pretty much the worst thing you can do. The farm needs to do to one person to keep it going as something viable (even as a part-time farm I mean never mind a full time one).

This is a non-farming attitude with little understanding of the situation.

I have two siblings and it wouldn’t even have entered anyone’s head, theirs or my parents that the farm would go to anyone but me that’s just the way it is.

McGaggs wrote: »

It's a pretty essential factor in the calculation of profitability of an investment.

I think you missed my point, a lot of land is bought for reasons other than it being profitable.

memorystick

Subdividing only ends in poverty. Can people not learn from their history. It’s very rare for a Protestant farmer to subdivide. Either they buy or get left from non parents but rarely From subdivision. They seem to have a better grasp of what to do.

carrollsno1

Keep Sluicing wrote: »

I would think between 28 and 32 is a good age to be handing it over. It allows the recepiant time to be sure it is something they want for the rest of their life, while allowing them plenty of their life to put their own stamp on the place.

You can sing ir! Wanted nothing but to farm full time, go share farming etc when i left school got to 23 and said to myself if twas such a good gig lads would be running into it. Here i am now at 25 back to square one starting off in an apprenticeship and farmings on tbe backburner for now.

Mooooo

Every farm and every family are different so no right answer so to speak. Communication is key, but so is a bit of realism. Situations differ if a farm is able to provide a full time income or not, levels of interest or work etc
What the parents want is just as important, if it was to be sold off by the children it may be a case of the parents do that themselves and enjoy the returns if they so wish

Neddyusa

wrangler wrote: »

The feeble minded young lads should have it sorted long before the ould ones get old,
You either sort it in your twenties or leave and forget about it until everyone is dead..... sell the place and share then,

Spot on Wrangler!

I was lucky enough that my own father was willing to pass the farm to me in my 20's.

I certainly wouldn't have been hanging around if they hadn't.
That was my parents decision to make.

But he'd had enough of it at that stage as the reins hadn't been passed to him until he was 60.

I intend to pass it on to my own sons - if any have an interest - in their 20s too.

skooterblue2

blackbox wrote: »

Correct - I am not from a farming background, but will you allow that perhaps that might give me a more objective view.

Unless there are truly exceptional circumstances (e.g. criminality) I would treat my adult children equally. If I have an asset - property, a business, a farm etc. I would consider it only fair to divide it between them. If one child has been working in the business I would have been paying him or her an appropriate wage. At any stage they would have been free to look for a better job elsewhere.

Each child has a choice (they are adults!) on what to do with his or her inheritance. If they think it is not viable as a source of income they can sell it and work at something else. If they can afford to buy it from the others for a hobby, fair dues to them.

I see complaints above that you can't make money out of farming. I think these actually strengthen my argument. Land is hugely over-valued for the returns that can be achieved from it.

If you had a farm it would be gone in a few short years. The farm is its own entity. It should be given to the strongest for it to survive. In the case of real life, children are not "equal" they are different. To give a farm to someone with no genuine interest is a burden for the individual and weakens the farm. Farming is not a job but a way of life or better a vocation. To force it unnaturally with emotional blackmail is wrong on either side.

You have no emotion for the land, animals or the way of life. Much the same way I cannot understand I cannot understand my wife passion for her job in retail.

charlesanto

Can you have your cake and eat it too ?

Split the land, with a condition that the brothers must lease to sister while she continues to run a farm on the land. If she gives up farming the land it reverts reverts to the brothers to do what they want with it.

If it not financially viable to run the farm and pay the lease on 2/3 of the land it probably isn't worth being tethered to the land.

[Deleted User]

charlesanto wrote: »

If it not financially viable to run the farm and pay the lease on 2/3 of the land it probably isn't worth being tethered to the land.

I don’t think you really get it if you think spending 10 to 15k on renting land can just be easily covered even by a fairly profitable farm.

The farm is likely only viable as a part time farm. If you were making 15k profit it would be very nice, if you have to rent 2/3 or the land you haven’t a chance of making much even with the BPS if you are spending a load of money renting land that should be yours.

skooterblue2

charlesanto wrote: »

Can you have your cake and eat it too ?

Split the land, with a condition that the brothers must lease to sister while she continues to run a farm on the land. If she gives up farming the land it reverts reverts to the brothers to do what they want with it.

If it not financially viable to run the farm and pay the lease on 2/3 of the land it probably isn't worth being tethered to the land.

The reality of the farm is its not going to be strong enough to survive to the next generation. The two boys got a good thing with education. Nothing sadder than someone to waiting their whole life for something that may or may not come.

A farm is a great place to raise a family close to grandparents. This will be a hobby farm in the mornings evenings and weekend. In China, trades are passed from Father to eldest son. In reality both mother and father will have to be working good jobs to keep the show on the road. I know of a few farms that are going to into cul-de-sacs with the children having no interest in the lifestyle.

charlesanto

Bentlee Kind Teapot wrote: »

I don’t think you really get it if you think spending 10 to 15k on renting land can just be easily covered even by a fairly profitable farm.

The farm is likely only viable as a part time farm. If you were making 15k profit it would be very nice, if you have to rent 2/3 or the land you haven’t a chance of making much even with the BPS if you are spending a load of money renting land that should be yours.

If the lease value/cost is 10/15 K per year, whats that €225 per acre !?
The lease value must be somewhat equatable to what can be made off the land, if the potential recipient of the free land cannot turn profit equatable to the lease value plus some they surely should drop the romantic notion of being a farmer.

As you say "I probably don't get it" ...

charlesanto

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The reality of the farm is its not going to be strong enough to survive to the next generation. The two boys got a good thing with education. Nothing sadder than someone to waiting their whole life for something that may or may not come.

A farm is a great place to raise a family close to grandparents. This will be a hobby farm in the mornings evenings and weekend. In China, trades are passed from Father to eldest son. In reality both mother and father will have to be working good jobs to keep the show on the road. I know of a few farms that are going to into cul-de-sacs with the children having no interest in the lifestyle.

Really, so the two realists should give up their inheritance for someones hobby ?
Let them keep their inheritance, the "LAND" and let the sibling who wants to work it, work it profitably or surrender. If 80 acres in not a viable farm just give up, let each sibling have a 26 acre hobby !!?

Hard Knocks

charlesanto wrote: »

Really, so the two realists should give up their inheritance for someones hobby ?
Let them keep their inheritance, the "LAND" and let the sibling who wants to work it, work it profitably or surrender. If 80 acres in not a viable farm just give up, let each sibling have a 26 acre hobby !!?

That’s your view
It is difficult for a farmer to extend a farm
Think of all the hard work that was done by previous generations
As farmers we’re not the owner but the caretaker
It’s our obligation to do the best we can and to pass onto the next generation

skooterblue2

charlesanto wrote: »

Really, so the two realists should give up their inheritance for someones hobby ?
Let them keep their inheritance, the "LAND" and let the sibling who wants to work it, work it profitably or surrender. If 80 acres in not a viable farm just give up, let each sibling have a 26 acre hobby !!?

You vastly underestimate the value the brothers have gotten in education. Not everyone gets that opportunity. I look as a farm as a distraction to career progression in another job. You forget the farm has it own entity. The amount of time, grief, legal effort and stress needed will destroy this family.

I am in a somewhat similar situation and I am not falling for it. A bachelor farmer uncle is close to death. There are 9 nephews and nieces (one is dead, three are not compos mentis) and he expects the others to slug it out for what is really "Shreks Swamp". Let the cousins have it and let them inherit a curse and fight among themselves for something that cannot be made work.

Treppen

People on here keep using the phrase "run the farm". But this daughter just does the books part time, does she actually go out and "work" on the farm?

blackbox

How big does a farm need to be (assuming fairly good land) to generate a good family income (over 50k) and cover the purchase repayments over say 20 years?

skooterblue2

blackbox wrote: »

How big does a farm need to be (assuming fairly good land) to generate a good family income (over 50k) and cover the purchase repayments over say 20 years?

Not to disrespect anyones property but to raise a family, maintain itself and hedge away for a rainy day (there are plenty of those coming in November). The days of 80 acre farms with one tractor is gone.

Depending on location also, 120-160 acres bare minimum? Open to correction. I see an end to family farms in the next generation. I see agricultural companies, more automation and mechanisation with robotics. I didnt say I liked it, it is on the way.

roosky

Treppen wrote: »

People on here keep using the phrase "run the farm". But this daughter just does the books part time, does she actually go out and "work" on the farm?

Yes she does all dosing, vaccinating, de-horning, pour ons etc, any cows needing cirds or that kinda thing she does it. She organises the breeding plan for the herd, selects replacements etc......she does out the fertiliser plan for the farm and also looks after the purchasing of meal, hay, straw etc......She isn't there for the day to day labour of the farm but all big jobs are put on hold until the weekedn and at this stage she defiantly has 50% if not more of the say in decision making with her father.

The only area where she has no involvement is tractor work !.....she was never thought to drive the tractor !!!

[Deleted User]

charlesanto wrote: »

If the lease value/cost is 10/15 K per year, whats that €225 per acre !?
The lease value must be somewhat equatable to what can be made off the land, if the potential recipient of the free land cannot turn profit equatable to the lease value plus some they surely should drop the romantic notion of being a farmer.

As you say "I probably don't get it" ...

You don't get it as if you did you would understand that margins are very very tight on most farms coupled with the fact that they are much more than just a business they are part of a family. If a farm is breaking even most people with an off farm job are happy to work away at it as they enjoy it so talk of renting the land and still trying to make something is just not feasible in a large majority of cases.

charlesanto wrote: »

Really, so the two realists should give up their inheritance for someones hobby ?
!?

They should never be considering the farm as their inheritance in the first place. The farm should stay intact and be passed on to the person who wants to keep farming it and then they pass it on to the next generation in the same way.

skooterblue2

charlesanto wrote: »

If the lease value/cost is 10/15 K per year, whats that €225 per acre !?
The lease value must be somewhat equatable to what can be made off the land, if the potential recipient of the free land cannot turn profit equatable to the lease value plus some they surely should drop the romantic notion of being a farmer.

As you say "I probably don't get it" ...

Yes you dont get it. You dont get the social interaction. The passing of the love of the land between the farm and the son. the excitement of driving tractors. On the female side, the mother teaching her daughter to raise turkeys and collect eggs. The Farm is a great place to grow up, adventure around every corner and healthier than urban living.

The sense of community and sharing equipment with neighbours. The breeding programs and showing them at agricultural shows. There is growing up in Macra na Ferime.

If you do not see the separate culture and way of life, then it is very different to see how everyone in a family fits into a farm.

20silkcut

roosky wrote: »

I think its awful sad that the family name thing still comes into it!

if my mother inherited her home farm and I was farming it to the standard that I do my own farm, I dont think my grandfather (lord rest him) would be that upset to see his farm being well minded, productive and being farmed by his grandson.....even if we do have different surnames.

Its hardly that big of a tragedy to see a farm move to an actively farming grandchild even if that grandchild has a different surname.

Fully agree I know of a family near me who are always on about their family name and their first second and third cousins with the same surname and how they own half the country.
And the reality is they are known far and wide for being as thick and ignorant as a bunch of thistles. They’d be better off if they didn’t have that family name.

whelan2

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Yes you dont get it. You dont get the social interaction. The passing of the love of the land between the farm and the son. the excitement of driving tractors. On the female side, the mother teaching her daughter to raise turkeys and collect eggs. The Farm is a great place to grow up, adventure around every corner and healthier than urban living.

The sense of community and sharing equipment with neighbours. The breeding programs and showing them at agricultural shows. There is growing up in Macra na Ferime.

If you do not see the separate culture and way of life, then it is very different to see how everyone in a family fits into a farm.

That has to be the most sexist post I've read in years

I says

whelan2 wrote: »

That has to be the most sexist post I've read in years

It was written by somebody who read about farming in a 1920s de Valera handbook. All that’s missing is comely maidens dancing at the crossroads.

Casati

I didn’t read all the posts but was it confirmed how the father came to own the farm in the first place? If he worked off farm and saved and borrowed to build it up from nothing then I’d see the logic in splitting it between each of the children

If he (more likely) inherited it himself then he should of course do the decent thing and give to whichever child is showing interest in taking it on. Part of the inheritance should be the typical covenant that he and his wife have use of the house for rest of their life, and indeed such arrangements can spell out bills that are expected to be paid by whoever is inheriting it.

Aside from that it’s not unlikely that he doesn’t want his daughter to become a poor farmer at all and is happy to see the farm split - Ie knowing that 1/3rd value as cash to each child should set them up and allow them a great life. The alternative is seeing the boys get nothing and having to pay massive mortgages of their own, while knowing his daughter will likely never make a living wage farming the land.

Land prices in Ireland are way too expensive for farming - farmers who buy land spend 10k an acre because they generally got the money from off farm income or selling sites. The market value is so high as non farmers are prepared to pay the money to keep a horse or even simply to buy land beside their houses to stop all further development beside them etc.

The OP knows that if the father isn’t go to give the farm to one child then non of them will be farming and she should accept that and not fall out over it - she will have a massive inheritance which could more than cover the cost of her building the house of her dreams on the land and indeed a keeping a few acres too, while at the same time allowing her brothers buy houses in Dublin

Grueller

whelan2 wrote: »

That has to be the most sexist post I've read in years

I'd love to have seen my father trying to get my middle sister to stay in with my mother to rear turkeys. Would have been some craic. Lol.

JeffKenna

Casati wrote: »

I didn’t read all the posts but was it confirmed how the father came to own the farm in the first place? If he worked off farm and saved and borrowed to build it up from nothing then I’d see the logic in splitting it between each of the children

I think a family meeting was called but cancelled due to the restrictions. This needs to be arranged again.

The point above is very important. Was the farm in the family generations or bought by the parents. If bought then the parents should be able to divide it how they see fit. If it has been in the family generations then no harm going back to the transfer from the grandparents and seeing what agreement was in place then? If I were the daughter I'd make an attempt to replicate that agreement now taking inflation into account and use that as the basis of a transfer now. That's what I'd be bringing to the table for a family meeting. Can't see how it's fair the parents basically end generations of farming by placing huge debt on her.

Also, don't know what her brothers position is? It seems they don't want to farm but maybe theyre happy to leave her have it?

Buford T. Justice XIX

JeffKenna wrote: »

I think a family meeting was called but cancelled due to the restrictions. This needs to be arranged again.

The point above is very important. Was the farm in the family generations or bought by the parents. If bought then the parents should be able to divide it how they see fit. If it has been in the family generations then no harm going back to the transfer from the grandparents and seeing what agreement was in place then? If I were the daughter I'd make an attempt to replicate that agreement now taking inflation into account and use that as the basis of a transfer now. That's what I'd be bringing to the table for a family meeting. Can't see how it's fair the parents basically end generations of farming by placing huge debt on her.

Also, don't know what her brothers position is? It seems they don't want to farm but maybe theyre happy to leave her have it?

They might be but situations like this can be complicated by inlaws who mightn't agree that their partner shouldn't get anything from the farm.

Treppen

roosky wrote: »

Yes she does all dosing, vaccinating, de-horning, pour ons etc, any cows needing cirds or that kinda thing she does it. She organises the breeding plan for the herd, selects replacements etc......she does out the fertiliser plan for the farm and also looks after the purchasing of meal, hay, straw etc......She isn't there for the day to day labour of the farm but all big jobs are put on hold until the weekedn and at this stage she defiantly has 50% if not more of the say in decision making with her father.

The only area where she has no involvement is tractor work !.....she was never thought to drive the tractor !!!

Ah ok thanks for clarifying. I thought you were long gone OP, I had been following this thread since it first started months ago, then it just came back again last week.

I'm close to another inheritance debate in my own life and what I've learned so far is to give things a few months to justify a perspective. Family and siblings are very quick to put pressure on for you to go a certain way but take your time is all I can say.
Also, once a will is made its very messy to ask for changes to be made.

You probably have a better sense of everything more than anyone else following this thread.

If you don't mind me asking, do you think your perspective has changed in any way since you've read all the tonnes of advice and scenarios on here?

skooterblue2

I says wrote: »

It was written by somebody who read about farming in a 1920s de Valera handbook. All that’s missing is comely maidens dancing at the crossroads.

Yeah that is how my parents were raised on the farm. in the 1940's to 1960's. I have never seen a man showing eggs at an agricultural show and never met a woman trained as a agricultural mechanic.
You pump kids full of all these ideas but in reality when you start to defy gender roles you get unhappy people. Seen them the whole time in university, 10% of enterents into first year engineering are women, even when they have the choice, they still choose other things. Then by the start of second year its down to about 1 in 80. Same with nursing, men dont take it up and when they do they are quite happy to get out of it and diversity after 10 years.
It happens naturally with children. My niece is all about her hens but the nephew is all about tractors. Dont mess with momma nature.

Biscuitus

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I see an end to family farms in the next generation. I see agricultural companies, more automation and mechanisation with robotics. I didnt say I liked it, it is on the way.

It's coming and there's next to nothing we can really do. So much land in the west will become abandoned but prime land across Ireland will be swallowed up into mega size farms with feed lots. On the bright side farmers will get proper wages, security and benefits that comes with employment but you won't own a farm.

skooterblue2

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

They might be but situations like this can be complicated by inlaws who mightn't agree that their partner shouldn't get anything from the farm.

Dont start on the inlaws. They are the ones who make it more complex. Where one half might see it as due inheritance and maybe reasonable, the non family partner will see it as "free money" and will be baiting for it.