nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

Ireland trains

Losty Dublin wrote: »

There are already services on the WRC which are diagrammed for 22000's though. 22000's were also intended to work suburban services, and they currently do so your point is mistaken if well meant.

Also I did say that the orders are about an expansion of capacity for the class. Once 22000 sets have extra on board capacity they will consequently displace some 29000's from some services, which will free up some capacity within the network

None of the additional 41 carriges will initally be for the WRC. the fleet will be reorganised into 22×6, 20×4 and 21×3. The current icr sets on the WRC are 3 cars and will remain so. The icrs will only be cascaded off dublin suburban services once a new fleet arrives in min 3 of years time.

Lord Glentoran

Ireland trains wrote: »

The coaches on order are for Dublin suburban and Heuston intercity only.
To quote Irish rail's website ' the new carriages will enter service in the Greater Dublin Area from late 2021, providing an overall increase in peak Commuter capacity of 34% on routes where they will be deployed. These carriages will benefit:

Northern Commuter services
Western Commuter services (Maynooth/M3 Parkway to Dublin)
South-Western Commuter services (Heuston Commuter and Intercity services, and Newbridge/Hazelhatch to Grand Canal Dock'

No ICRs will be redeployed onto the WRC

Earmarking stock for particular routes doesn’t really work in CIE. For example, the 2600 railcars in 1994 were pretty quickly deployed elsewhere on the system outwith their “Arrow” branding for the Heuston-Kildare stopping services. For example, I had the interesting experience of being on a non-stop “Arrow Express” run to Cork from Dublin in 2001.

Losty Dublin

Ireland trains wrote: »

The coaches on order are for Dublin suburban and Heuston intercity only.
To quote Irish rail's website ' the new carriages will enter service in the Greater Dublin Area from late 2021, providing an overall increase in peak Commuter capacity of 34% on routes where they will be deployed. These carriages will benefit:

Northern Commuter services
Western Commuter services (Maynooth/M3 Parkway to Dublin)
South-Western Commuter services (Heuston Commuter and Intercity services, and Newbridge/Hazelhatch to Grand Canal Dock'

No ICRs will be redeployed onto the WRC

There are already services on the WRC which are diagrammed for 22000's though. 22000's were also intended to work suburban services, and they currently do so your point is mistaken if well meant.

Also I did say that the orders are about an expansion of capacity for the class. Once 22000 sets have extra on board capacity they will consequently displace some 29000's from some services, which will free up some capacity within the network

Ireland trains

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Good news to behold

Additional 22000 intermediate units were ordered last year and are due for delivery in 2021. While this order is ostensibly about adding capacity to the fleet, it will allow fleet managers the chance for DMU sets to be reallocated onto other services, including extra 22000 sets on the WRC. Many services on the Galway-Limerick services depart their respective termini full; for these passenger the extra accommodation cannot come quick enough.

The coaches on order are for Dublin suburban and Heuston intercity only.
To quote Irish rail's website ' the new carriages will enter service in the Greater Dublin Area from late 2021, providing an overall increase in peak Commuter capacity of 34% on routes where they will be deployed. These carriages will benefit:

Northern Commuter services
Western Commuter services (Maynooth/M3 Parkway to Dublin)
South-Western Commuter services (Heuston Commuter and Intercity services, and Newbridge/Hazelhatch to Grand Canal Dock'

No ICRs will be redeployed onto the WRC

Losty Dublin

L1011 wrote: »

Even if they had a railway order to proceed with works immediately - there is no rolling stock. None at all. And no order for DART expansion which is what's going to release diesel stock (we are unlikely to ever order further diesel stock beyond maybe another 22000 centre car order).

Even if there's a business case its 15 years away.

Good news to behold.

Additional 22000 intermediate units were ordered last year and are due for delivery in 2021. While this order is ostensibly about adding capacity to the fleet, it will allow fleet managers the chance for DMU sets to be reallocated onto other services, including extra 22000 sets on the WRC. Many services on the Galway-Limerick services depart their respective termini full; for these passenger the extra accommodation cannot come quick enough.

There will also be surplus DMU's that will be released from Dublin suburban services. Hybrid units and new EMU's to complement the forthcoming DART expansion have been. Granted these are not anytime real soon but that's okay, it will take a while for the WRC to come on stream.

Remember, if all that is granted for now is a renewal to Tuam then all that will be needed in the interim is two sets; one if it's operated as a branch shuttle. That is well within the confines of the current fleet let alone in the short and mid term as units are displaced.

Losty Dublin

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

It's interesting. I read a thesis online about it there. And it is sad to see that the majority of the line does not exist any more. I hope the same doesn't happen the WRC. I cross a part of the WRC multiple times a day and it saddens me to see it not in use. Hopefully, it will be back in use some day, whatever that use may be.

Oddly enough there were plans proposed to extend the Ballinrobe line onwards to Cong. Would have made for an excellent greenway; it would have been a real Quiet Man Greenway too.

blackwhite

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Never knew there was a railway station in Ballinrobe. Would that section also be considered part of the WRC?

Station was down where the GAA grounds are now. A few of the buildings are still there

TCDStudent1

Del.Monte wrote: »

Long gone (1892 - 1959)
http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20B/Ballinrobe/IrishRailwayStations.html

It's interesting. I read a thesis online about it there. And it is sad to see that the majority of the line does not exist any more. I hope the same doesn't happen the WRC. I cross a part of the WRC multiple times a day and it saddens me to see it not in use. Hopefully, it will be back in use some day, whatever that use may be.

Del.Monte

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Any reason for this? Does that line not exist any more?

Long gone (1892 - 1959)
http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20B/Ballinrobe/IrishRailwayStations.html

TCDStudent1

Del.Monte wrote: »

@ TCDStudent1

No, the Ballinrobe branch is not considered part of the WRC.

Any reason for this? Does that line not exist any more?

Del.Monte

@ TCDStudent1

No, the Ballinrobe branch is not considered part of the WRC.

Isambard

lovely old maps. Thanks for sharing.

Isn't it surprising Limerick isn't clamouring for a direct service to Dublin (via Nenagh)!

TCDStudent1

Del.Monte wrote: »

A couple of 1940s maps here to help some of you understand where the WRC is, axle loadings etc. Incidentally, the axle loading on a line can sometimes be decided by a solitary structure on the line e.g. Cahir viaduct and doesn't indicate that the line as a whole is unfit for heavier axle loads than that indicated.

Never knew there was a railway station in Ballinrobe. Would that section also be considered part of the WRC?

Del.Monte

A couple of 1940s maps here to help some of you understand where the WRC is, axle loadings etc. Incidentally, the axle loading on a line can sometimes be decided by a solitary structure on the line e.g. Cahir viaduct and doesn't indicate that the line as a whole is unfit for heavier axle loads than that indicated.

MILNE%2B1.jpg

Lord Glentoran

Muckyboots wrote: »

I think you've nailed it there. WOT thought that they had a monopoly on ideas for the WRC, based on a shoddy "we were here first" principle. A train running on that alignment will tramp the greenway campaign into the ground. That's the challenge and, genuinely, I wish you all luck with it .

Meanwhile, the attempt to get a greenway across East Galway from Athlone gets hindered by one of the politicians who has been the loudest exponent of preventing the reuse of the line even to Tuam. Some crack.

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

1) When a number of us were looking at cycling infrastructure in the east of county Galway, some of us were advised not to waste energy on turning the Western Rail Corridor into a cycling route. It would eventually be rail.

Greaney wrote: »

4) Some 'in county' folk have been part of the West-on-track campaign since the beginning in 2003. Indeed, many of us have wanted that track open for long before that.

I think you've nailed it there. WOT thought that they had a monopoly on ideas for the WRC, based on a shoddy "we were here first" principle. A train running on that alignment will tramp the greenway campaign into the ground. That's the challenge and, genuinely, I wish you all luck with it .

L1011

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Dart to Maynooth by 2027 means that rolling stock will be cascaded then to other lines, meanwhile it is very easy to source trains from UK and get them rebogied for Irish gauge.

DART won't be there by 2027 at the current pace of progress; and that stock:

a: Needs a completely mid-life refit and corrosion repairs
b: is basically spoken for already for Northern/Hazelhatch/Cork commuter

It'll be the second and third DART expansions that might leave actual spare stock

What UK stock? The NTA tried and failed; the stuff that is known to be coming free shortly is either EOL (Pacers) or 25kV AC.

Greaney

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The in-county folk might pretend they have a clue but they don't.

Really...they do.

1) When a number of us were looking at cycling infrastructure in the east of county Galway, some of us were advised not to waste energy on turning the Western Rail Corridor into a cycling route. It would eventually be rail.

2)Most of us were fine with this as we would have public transport needs and know Galways' traffic congestion problem intimately. (not to mention Tuam & Athenrys' traffic issues)

3) Some of us got busy looking into immediate cycling needs in our community and this didn't go unnoticed by the council etc.

4) Some 'in county' folk have been part of the West-on-track campaign since the beginning in 2003. Indeed, many of us have wanted that track open for long before that.

5) Some 'in county' folk are/have worked as engineers, architects, planners, community workers etc. and understand the issues very well.

CatInABox

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Dart to Maynooth by 2027 means that rolling stock will be cascaded then to other lines, meanwhile it is very easy to source trains from UK and get them rebogied for Irish gauge.

It's so easy that IR and the NTA looked at it, and decided to go for entirely new trains instead just last year.

Lord Glentoran

L1011 wrote: »

Even if they had a railway order to proceed with works immediately - there is no rolling stock. None at all. And no order for DART expansion which is what's going to release diesel stock (we are unlikely to ever order further diesel stock beyond maybe another 22000 centre car order).

Even if there's a business case its 15 years away.

Dart to Maynooth by 2027 means that rolling stock will be cascaded then to other lines, meanwhile it is very easy to source trains from UK and get them rebogied for Irish gauge.

L1011

Even if they had a railway order to proceed with works immediately - there is no rolling stock. None at all. And no order for DART expansion which is what's going to release diesel stock (we are unlikely to ever order further diesel stock beyond maybe another 22000 centre car order).

Even if there's a business case its 15 years away.

Pete_Cavan

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I foresee it within 5 years. Don't let yourself be swayed by out-of-county chatter. They haven't a clue!

Ground investigations, design, environmental screening, planning approval, procurement, construction, testing, driver training, etc. would take the guts of five years. Realistically, none of that is starting this year and very unlikely to start next year given it isn't on the radar in terms of government capital spending allocations. It could take 5 - 10 years just to get funded alone and that assumes a sound business case which DPER accepts. Unless the report that Canney asked for sets out the business case, unlikely, another report will be needed making the case as per Public Spending Code. The business case here is likely to be favourable given it will also have to consider alternatives and a bus alternative for practically no cost will be more attractive.

The in-county folk might pretend they have a clue but they don't.

ezstreet5

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think anybody realistically sees the next phase of the WRC opening before 2050 regardless of your stance. there are simply far too many other higher priority/benefit projects to be done ahead of it

I foresee it within 5 years. Don't let yourself be swayed by out-of-county chatter. They haven't a clue!

[Deleted User]

I don't think anybody realistically sees the next phase of the WRC opening before 2050 regardless of your stance. there are simply far too many other higher priority/benefit projects to be done ahead of it

ShaneC1600

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If the paths don't exist, you can't provide the service.

A rail service from Tuam to Galway will decrease road users and congestion but won't be happening for at least a decade, probably a lot longer, so it is a mute point. It certainly is hypocritical to say a bus from Tuam to Athenry brings nothing to the table but promote a rail service which as it stands can only be the same journey but at lower frequency. If your concern is reducing congestion within this decade, this rail line brings nothing to the table.

By how much will a rail service from Tuam to Galway decrease road users and congestion? Is it enough to justify the massive cost of providing that service? The answers may be in the report a TD wanted prepared but then didn't seem interested in getting published. Hopefully the next Minister lets us in on it.

You keep saying the Tuam to Galway rail service will not happen for a decade. Even if you are correct, the best case scenario for the greenway is 2022/23 completion leaving 7 years usage before the big train is coming. For 10 million I'd want to see the greenway used for more than 7 years and the Council would have to pay to lift the greenway based on previous licence agreements. 7 years return for 10 million and then have to pay to lift it, I cant see any council looking for this?
You also say the doubling of the Galway line to Athenry is way down the list, how do you know this? I believe this could be prioritized very quickly with multiple agencies applying for EU funding presently. The doubling of the track is not waiting on that report but the report might state that doubling of the existing is required!

Pete_Cavan

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I also do the same. Far easier to understand where the stops are and when your stop is approaching. In an earlier post, somebody mentioned about Castlerea - Ballyhaunis being linked to Galway. However, based on what I have read here, I believe that would mean the commuter has to change at Claremorris and then at Athenry. I doubt many would do it. But I certainly have done so on travels throughout Europe.

These are all single track lines so limited capacity. As it stands, more services into Galway will require increased capacity. Those capacity increases aren't going to happen anytime soon so a change at Athenry would be required, no matter how much people try to muddy the waters with "well we haven't seen service pattern yet". No paths, no trains. You would have to reduce services from Athlone or Limerick, neither of which would go down well (not to mention that reducing services from Limerick would be a serious admission of the failure of WRC Phase 1 and hardly help the case for further phases).

It would cost at least €150m to reinstate the line to Claremorris and even that would be a journey time of about an hour to Athenry, before proceeding on to Galway. In reality, trains north of Tuam will be of no use to commuters given the journey time and the frequency will be terrible. You might have one service leaving Claremorris which could get you into Galway early enough to start work, miss that and you may ring in sick. There would be limited, if any, commuters north of Tuam, nowhere near enough to justify the service.

It would be interesting to see how it would work. If there was no demand for it, then surely there would be no demand for the rail service?

Given the reality of the network, the bus would actually be a better service than train from Tuam to Athenry. On a short single track branch, you could only have one train operating a shuttle service. ~30 mins there and back, one train per hour max. Multiple buses could operate at little cost. I am not saying that such a bus service should be provided btw, my point is, if the objective is to get people onto trains into Galway and reduce congestion in the next decade, bus is the only option given the length of time it will take before the train service can operate. The refusal to accept bus as an interim measure which can provide a service now rather than a train in 10 years, shows it has nothing to do with commuting or congestion. If the demand is there now, and the need is there now, why wait a decade rather than do something about it now?

Losty Dublin

Isambard wrote: »

same freight though. You can't call it extra

Yep. A new carrier is carrying the old freight even though a different carrier has been carrying that freight to a different destination all along

ezstreet5

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Could the same not be said for trains? What if the train coming from Tuam was delayed?

I have used shuttle buses to rail (in Europe admittedly) and never encountered any issue like you mentioned.

The train arriving in Athenry from Tuam is traveling 25 km on a single line, and may only have to navigate a passing train at Ballyglunin, but perhaps not even that. Once it reaches Athenry, it will travel on, either back to Tuam (as a shuttle), to Galway, or to Limerick. And in any case, at Athenry, there will be a guaranteed connection. So a late Tuam-Athenry train will cause system delays, but passengers will not be stranded. Interestingly, a Dublin-Athenry train was delayed (pre Covid, I believe), and the passengers were told that the Athenry-Limerick train would wait, but it didn't. So there was a bit of anger.

end of the road

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If the paths don't exist, you can't provide the service.

A rail service from Tuam to Galway will decrease road users and congestion but won't be happening for at least a decade, probably a lot longer, so it is a mute point. It certainly is hypocritical to say a bus from Tuam to Athenry brings nothing to the table but promote a rail service which as it stands can only be the same journey but at lower frequency. If your concern is reducing congestion within this decade, this rail line brings nothing to the table.

By how much will a rail service from Tuam to Galway decrease road users and congestion? Is it enough to justify the massive cost of providing that service? The answers may be in the report a TD wanted prepared but then didn't seem interested in getting published. Hopefully the next Minister lets us in on it.

the cost of providing the rail service isn't massive in the greate scheme of things. it's certainly value for money compared to continuing to cater to single occupant cars.
those of us in support of reopening the line are not saying it has to be done today, if it could be brilliant, if it takes a decade or more then so be it.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I didn't say WRC goes to Athlone, I was talking about freight services on their way to Waterford.

yes and with the wrc opened it would still go to waterford but without traveling part of the dublin cork route between portarlington and kildare but would instead go via tuam/limerick and via the lj to waterford line which would over all have less traffic.
i also believe it's actually a shorter distance but perhapse del.monte or losty dublin could confirm?
you will still need to double athlone to portarlington anyway regardless.

[Deleted User]

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Apparently not Shane Ross, who stated in the Dail that '[T]he Gort-Tuam motorway which opened last year and which was prioritised and delivered at the height of the economic crisis at a total cost to the Exchequer and PPP contractors of €1.149 billion.' Perhaps €550 million was the immediate cost to the Exchequer, and the remaining €599 was borne by the PPP contractors? It would an interesting study to show how that expense is not ultimately borne by the Exchequer. In any event, Mr. Ross provides four significant digits in his answer.

He did, but he did so incorrectly as literally every other mention of cost states 550 million to build it

If it cost 1.149 billion it would work out at probably the most expensive motorway project per km in the entire world that has gone through fields