gormdubhgorm wrote: » My point was real inclusiveness is never made towards the Unionist tradition to try and say you would be welcome in a UI . Everything is provocative. Yet at the same time many Republican voters identify with British culture day to day. Music sport and don't speak Irish. Yet we have this twilight zone contradictory stuff: Where a Children's playground gets named after a fella involved in murder of 10 Protestant workmen back in 1976. See Raymond McCreesh Park in Newry only named in 2001! If that is not taking the piss and rubbing Unionist's noses in it - I don't know what is. The very opposite of the inclusiveness necessary to have a successful UI.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Zero concessions to belligerent Unionists. No problem discussing every aspect of a new Ireland with anyone willing to be moderate and democratic. I have said more than once that flags and anthems matter not a bit to me. I would vote against joining the Commonwealth on EU and monarchy grounds. If a majority decide they want to do it...fine by me. Regarding McCreesh...that park was named on foot of a proposal supported by SF the SDLP and independents. There is very little to be gained from disallowing people from remembering their dead, both sides have 'dead'. It isn't hard to accommodate if you accept that there are as many symbols of remembrance to British oppression and Loyalism as there are Republican memorials. As long as the motive is remembrance and it isn't done to taunt, triumphalise or enflame, I have no problem with either side doing it.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » My point was real inclusiveness is never made towards the Unionist tradition to try and say you would be welcome in a UI . Everything is provocative. Yet at the same time many Republican voters identify with British culture day to day. Music sport and don't speak Irish. Yet we have this twilight zone contradictory stuff: Where a Children's playground gets named after a fella involved in murder of 10 Protestant workmen back in 1976. See Raymond McCreesh Park in Newry only named in 2001!
gormdubhgorm wrote: » So you have given zero concessions to ANY Unionists. Naming playgrounds after fellas like Raymond McCreesh you see nothing wrong with it? What do the Unionist's you 'deal' with think of the likes of that? Hardly going make them vote for UI is it or feel part of it? It will be doomed before it begins, with that attitude. It stinks of bigotry and piss taking.
FrancieBrady wrote: » When Unionists look to be included I have no issues whatsoever. I deal with unionists every day of the week. What you are looking for is concessions towards belligerents. I advocate none Neither for belligerent unonists or nationalists (commonly known as dissidents) And once there is a successful vote partitionists can kindly find something else to worry about.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » My point was real inclusiveness is never made towards the Unionist tradition. Everything is provocative. Yet at the same time many Republican voters identify with British culture day to day. Music sport and don't speak Irish. Yet we have this twilight zone contradictory stuff of Children's playgrounds getting named after a fella involved in murder of 10 Protestant workmen back in 1976. See Raymond McCreesh Park in Newry only named in 2001! If that is not taking the piss and rubbing Unionist's noses in it I don't know what is. The very opposite of the inclusiveness necessary to have a successful UI.
BonnieSituation wrote: » What the the hell was all of that?
Shefwedfan wrote: » FF got the most seats so are the biggest party
FrancieBrady wrote: » Your judgement is deeply deeply suspect again. You are correct, FF/FG/Lab all engaging in exclusionary politics and the Irish electorate told all 3 what they thought of that, returning SF as the biggest party. What you miss about Irish culture is that there is a folk memory of exclusion. FG FF and Lab behaving like Unionists or the Anglo Irish class will not play well. *Nolan is Dunphy when it comes to politics...controversy and stoking hate keeps him in a job.
FrancieBrady wrote: » And if you cannot see exclusionary politics in the vein of Unionism and the Anglo Irish ascendancy then if you are representative of FF FG you are doomed to the inevitable. Irish culture rejects that kind of exclusion. Learn from history.
They are in an 'artificially created' majority. They have gerrymandered and excluded until the place went up in flames and are now being run under the aegis of two sovereign independent governments operating internationally binding agreement which recognises the above and seeks to fix the artificial imbalance.
Why would nationalists be attacking Gardai in a UI? Would there be 'Gardai' policing these areas?
So what are your proposals to fix this? Allow people to respectfully remember their dead or remove all symbolism?
Unionists have to engage if they want to be included. I have no fear of any proposals they may make. Moderate Unionism can make a tremendous contribution to a UI.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Well if you don't want to take the blinkers off regarding that - there is no changing you.
Well it is yeah considering they are in the majority in NI and no longer say NEVER, NEVER, NEVER.
Limited areas or not it is a clear demonstration that NI is not ready for a UI. Imagine the poor Gardai who were not long ago being shot and killed by the Provos - now going to have to put themselves in more danger for the sake of six counties in a UI. Some irony there.
I never said that it. I said such symbolism demonstrates lack of sensitivity and inclusiveness.https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008 Nowhere in the article above was there mention of SF - which indicates you did not read it.
As far as I am concerned as far as Nationist and Unionism in NI there is a pair of them in it. Both extremes as bad as each other. Who try to make a claim on who suffering more while baiting the heads off each other, or shooting each other. Now it is just words thankfully. You are missing the point either willfully or because of blinkers. I bet 'out your way' you refer to the Green, White and Gold. It is deliberately less inclusive and a two fingers to the Protestant tradition. It seems that your understanding of Irish culture is all leaning one way, as proven by your regular posts - full of 'SF speak'. It seems it is you who seem to have the deep rooted prejudice. Because I have yet to see any suggestions by you on how to promotion inclusion among Unionists in a UI and make it a more welcoming place. If there was a border poll now it would be nothing more than an exercise in Republican Mickey waving. Numbers are not there. When the vote is lost what will SF do then? They will have shot themselves in the foot - only metaphorically and politically.
FrancieBrady wrote: » You are reading things into the election results that are not there. I could posit the theory that 78% of the electorate voted against FG being in government on the back of your theory.
Did you really say type that? Jesus H. How very generous of the Unionists to 'share power'.
Ah right...somebody who has no idea that peace walls exist in very limited areas. And again...they are all the fault of those pesky shinners. What an abjectly uneducated thing to say.
The GAA is part of the SF conspiracy now?
The GAA call their clubs after members who have given service to the clubs. They are local decisions not central council decisions. If you cannot accept that 'local' people can be allowed to remember their dead and that IRA members were part of communities then you are just being partisan. Take a trip around the north sometime and look at what nationalists have to tolerate as Unionists remember their dead. Largely without complaint too. Start with the original terrorist who re-introduced the gun to Irish politics in 1912/13, Edward Carson and work your way from there.
Did a quick trip to the SF website there and any flags for sale are definitely Green White and Orange. Who is playing this subtle trick? Can you back up this conspiracy?
When you invent boogeymen that aren't there, have a woeful, uneducated understanding of Irish culture there is no surprise there.
What you mean is that 'YOU' are not ready. Not ready to include everyone in the democratic process and not ready to accept your own prejudices and exclusionary politics.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » See this is more SF speak 'exclusionary politics'. But SF are excluding themselves because a voters block mandate - 'mondate' as Gerry is fond of saying do not want SF in government in the ROI. You have to ask yourself why is this - 1) They find SF morally repugnant and thier double speak when it comes to morality only sticks in peoples craw all the more. SF almost revel in not tidying up thier baggage from the troubles and long after it 2) As a result of the first point this voters block in the does not trust SF to lead in DE 3) We saw evidence of the Republican pantomime brought to the ROI during the general election. SF TD's with - aggressive flag waving. Tiocfaidh ár lá's and playing of rebel songs in a provocative fashion. This again only proved in the minds of the ROI voters block who do not want SF in government, that SF have not grown up politically. SF are excluding themselves by not engendering trust to the larger portion of the ROI electorate. But of course SF never have the realisation to see it that way, or admit it. --
Now in NI the Unionists tolerate SF fair dues to them for that. They share power for the sake of peace.
But if I as a ROI voter who can SF for what it is. How do you think Unionists feel in NI? With all the 'Peace Walls' segregation and Ghettoisation how do you think a UI is going to work?
I mean look at who many GAA clubs are named after and this is supposed to be an apolitical organisation!https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008
Even look at the tricolour. It is supposed to represent the Catholic tradition (Green), Peace harmony (White), Protestant tradition (Orange) Now how often how you heard the tricolour referred to as Green, White and Gold But in the Irish constitution it clearly states: Article 7 of the constitution of Ireland states "The National Flag is the Tricolour of Green, White and Orange." So why do a lot of people refer to the tricolour as Green, White and Gold? Well the honest answer is people who do want to deny the orange part and lessen it's significance. A subtle trick.
All these type of things add up to a prospect of an unwelcoming UI for Unionists. It hardly shouts come on in George and Harriet from the Shankhill road you will be more than welcome in a UI. If I was a Unionist I would feel with some justification, that Republicanism wants to wipe Unionism from the map. Piece by piece by piece. And when Republicans shout 'Brits out' they really mean Unionism.
So I honestly don't think Ireland is ready for a UI, nor are SF nor, nor are the Unionists. A UI means real inclusion and given the recent overt OTT symbolism from SF in the 2020 GE in the ROI. I feel there is a long way to go yet. Divisiveness is still bubbling under the surface. A UI would not work as a result and the ROI is not equipped to peacefully secure NI (as it currently is) either.
Fionn1952 wrote: » All other stuff aside, Nolan is absolutely not representative of the general populace of NI. His audiences are very carefully and intentionally chosen to get the sort of reactions you see. He is more akin to Jerry Springer than legitimate political commentary. This isn't a matter of opinion by the way, it is purely factual. Should you watch it enough, you'll notice even in the audience, the same faces showing up time and time again.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » The above is what being disingenuous looks like. FF/FG/Labour all said no to SF in government. It was always going to be a combination of one or more of those parties plus a.n other. You this is the problem why there is no UI there is no sincerity or honesty. Judging by your post regarding the GE 2020. I would say Nolan has his finger firmly on the plus of Nationalist and Unionist type rhetoric. From my opinion as I said NI is childish in nature and are disingenuous in politics. Not very truthful all posturing and symbolism. Only when that is solved can there be a UI.
FrancieBrady wrote: » The Greens gor 7%. 93% didnt want them in government .see where this is going?
Nolan is a click bait controversialist...if you judged the south on the cobtriburions to the Joe Duffy circus...it would be a similar mistake.
downcow wrote: » Well there we are. That puts the lie to all the nonsense being peddled on here. It just not happening, in our lifetimes, or ever. And the gfa prevents any silly stuff going on. As unionists we are rock solid and safe in the union. Thanks to the gfa
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Here was a discussion of a UI in 2015. Opinion polls and the like. By the way Pearse Doherty was captioned as FF
Brendan Bendar wrote: » Merely pointing out some, and there’s plenty more, of the reasons sensible folk in our country have in having folk like those I have mentioned about the place. Worked far too hard and gave far too much to let that lot and their fellow travelers to take control. The shadowy figures working the puppets from secure well sinecured pensioned haciendas wouldn’t have much respect for the Brenner. Feeling would be mutual
FrancieBrady wrote: » Is that all you have against it Brendan, your dislike of the Shinners?
Brendan Bendar wrote: » Everything,dude, everything.
BonnieSituation wrote: » And this has what to do with a United Ireland?
Brendan Bendar wrote: » Central Criminal Court.... wouldn’t be in favour of that bad boy going down. Chap could get ‘ taken to a shed’ and told politely he/ she saw nothing. How many were in that bar in Belfast... blind convention as it turned out Police cock up again..... big toilets up there....... seat forty or fifty they say. Can’t understand their incompetence.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Not trying to goad you. Telling you clearly that you are speaking like a Unionist in the 60's 70' or 80's. They tried their best to exclude and ignore. But they couldn't do it. Inevitably (just as it will happen here too) the mandate became too strong and they were dragged kicking and screaming to democracy. Same here. The belligerent exclusionists day's are numbered. You know it and so do I.
