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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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end of the road

JCX BXC wrote: »

Why would level crossings have to be removed when double tracking?

they don't have to be, however removal of level crossings generally should be aimed for where possible as ultimately it allows for speeding up of services.

Pete_Cavan

end of the road wrote: »

again, we do not know that the train will only go between tuam and athenry, no service pattern has been released, or if it has, i have never come across it.
buses can create modal shift in some cases, but where they will end up getting stuck in large amounts of traffic such as in galway, i have to say i find it hard to believe they would create much if any.

We do know that train will only go between Tuam and Athenry because there no space on the Galway - Athenry line for trains from Tuam to Galway. The G-A upgrade is well down the priorities list so that constraint will remain for a long time.

The bus wouldn't get stuck in Galway because it would be providing a connection to train at Athenry. I am pointing out that the same shuttle service could be provided by bus in a few weeks that won't be available by train for more than 10 years. We keep hearing how there is demand for a rail line which will cost at least €75m to build, yet a bus service which will cost less than 1% of that won't work! Pure hypocrisy.

Freight from Mayo doesn't help justify further spending on WRC. The two lines converge in Athlone, east of which is where the main congestion is. Double tracking Athlone - Portarlington remains the best investment for rail services to/from the west.

ezstreet5

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

We do know that train will only go between Tuam and Athenry because there no space on the Galway - Athenry line for trains from Tuam to Galway. The G-A upgrade is well down the priorities list so that constraint will remain for a long time.

The bus wouldn't get stuck in Galway because it would be providing a connection to train at Athenry. I am pointing out that the same shuttle service could be provided by bus in a few weeks that won't be available by train for more than 10 years. We keep hearing how there is demand for a rail line which will cost at least €75m to build, yet a bus service which will cost less than 1% of that won't work! Pure hypocrisy.

Freight from Mayo doesn't help justify further spending on WRC. The two lines converge in Athlone, east of which is where the main congestion is. Double tracking Athlone - Portarlington remains the best investment for rail services to/from the west.

Nobody wants a crappy shuttle bus from Tuam to Athenry. It would be a little piece of hell. €75m is chump change. Don't be a cheapskate when it comes to infrastructure in the west. Invest!

end of the road

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

We do know that train will only go between Tuam and Athenry because there no space on the Galway - Athenry line for trains from Tuam to Galway. The G-A upgrade is well down the priorities list so that constraint will remain for a long time.

The bus wouldn't get stuck in Galway because it would be providing a connection to train at Athenry. I am pointing out that the same shuttle service could be provided by bus in a few weeks that won't be available by train for more than 10 years. We keep hearing how there is demand for a rail line which will cost at least €75m to build, yet a bus service which will cost less than 1% of that won't work! Pure hypocrisy.

Freight from Mayo doesn't help justify further spending on WRC. The two lines converge in Athlone, east of which is where the main congestion is. Double tracking Athlone - Portarlington remains the best investment for rail services to/from the west.

we don't know the train will only go between tuam and athenry.
we know nothing in terms of service pattern, we are just speculating.

a bus from tuam to athenry brings nothing to the table as there are already bus services from tuam to whatever the destinations are, that are serving the demand for bus services, however a rail service from tuam to galway can decrease road users and congestion.
there is no hypocracy at all, you are seeing things that aren't there.

the wrc does not go to athlone, it goes between limerick and sligo technically, the main bits being from limerick to athenry and athenry to claremorris.

[Deleted User]

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Nobody wants a crappy shuttle bus from Tuam to Athenry. It would be a little piece of hell. €75m is chump change. Don't be a cheapskate when it comes to infrastructure in the west. Invest!

Apparently they already invested 1.1 billion* to connect Tuam and Athenry with a shiny 4 lane motorway

*Was actually 550 mil but sure who's counting

Muckyboots

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Nobody wants a crappy shuttle bus from Tuam to Athenry. It would be a little piece of hell. €75m is chump change. Don't be a cheapskate when it comes to infrastructure in the west. Invest!

A crappy shuttle train from Tuam to Athenry would be one trip wonder at best. A kind of overgrown fun train, if you like. Then people would go back to service user orientated buses and their dreaded cars......oh and bicycles, e-bikes on greenways.

ezstreet5

Muckyboots wrote: »

A crappy shuttle train from Tuam to Athenry would be one trip wonder at best. A kind of overgrown fun train, if you like. Then people would go back to service user orientated buses and their dreaded cars......oh and bicycles, e-bikes on greenways.

If you are happy with the current 60 minute bus trip Tuam to Galway - at the amazing speed of 32 kph! - then let's maintain the status quo so that €75 million can be spent, um, not here. Oh yeah, if you are from Tuam and want to go to anywhere other than Galway, you won't mind the extra hour+ to go to Galway first. But off the top of my head, I can't think of a reason that a person from Tuam would want to go to, say, Dublin. They'd have no business there. Maybe they shouldn't be going to Galway either. And greenways to where for commuting? Tuam to Galway? Athenry to Galway? Not provided under any scenario. I suppose there may be severals of people that live in Atherny and work in Tuam (or vice versa) for whom a greenway would benefit them from a commuting perspective.

Losty Dublin

Isambard wrote: »

isn't the "new" freight service just a reinstatement of that withdrawn a year or two ago? SO not growth and probably not new custom either.

No, this is a new carrier. You are thinking of DFDS freight.

TCDStudent1

Greaney wrote: »

I have to admit, as a tourist abroad.... I'll always choose train (tram/tube) over the bus. It's a lot more user friendly if you're not familiar with the area it's easier to use. If your impaired it's easier.

Bus doesn't take bikes
The private bus (Athenry) charges extra on top of a travel pass
It's a hassle/impossible for buggies and wheelchairs/mobility scooters to use the bus
It gets stuck in traffic

I also do the same. Far easier to understand where the stops are and when your stop is approaching. In an earlier post, somebody mentioned about Castlerea - Ballyhaunis being linked to Galway. However, based on what I have read here, I believe that would mean the commuter has to change at Claremorris and then at Athenry. I doubt many would do it. But I certainly have done so on travels throughout Europe.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Nobody wants a crappy shuttle bus from Tuam to Athenry. It would be a little piece of hell. €75m is chump change. Don't be a cheapskate when it comes to infrastructure in the west. Invest!

It would be interesting to see how it would work. If there was no demand for it, then surely there would be no demand for the rail service?

Pete_Cavan

end of the road wrote: »

we don't know the train will only go between tuam and athenry.
we know nothing in terms of service pattern, we are just speculating.

If the paths don't exist, you can't provide the service.

a bus from tuam to athenry brings nothing to the table as there are already bus services from tuam to whatever the destinations are, that are serving the demand for bus services, however a rail service from tuam to galway can decrease road users and congestion.
there is no hypocracy at all, you are seeing things that aren't there.

A rail service from Tuam to Galway will decrease road users and congestion but won't be happening for at least a decade, probably a lot longer, so it is a mute point. It certainly is hypocritical to say a bus from Tuam to Athenry brings nothing to the table but promote a rail service which as it stands can only be the same journey but at lower frequency. If your concern is reducing congestion within this decade, this rail line brings nothing to the table.

By how much will a rail service from Tuam to Galway decrease road users and congestion? Is it enough to justify the massive cost of providing that service? The answers may be in the report a TD wanted prepared but then didn't seem interested in getting published. Hopefully the next Minister lets us in on it.

the wrc does not go to athlone, it goes between limerick and sligo technically, the main bits being from limerick to athenry and athenry to claremorris.

I didn't say WRC goes to Athlone, I was talking about freight services on their way to Waterford.

end of the road

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

It would be interesting to see how it would work. If there was no demand for it, then surely there would be no demand for the rail service?

not necessarily, demand or lack of demand for bus services won't automatically equate to demand or lack of demand for rail, same in opposition.
both are different beasts hence won't automatically negate or otherwise the need for each other.

Isambard

Losty Dublin wrote: »

No, this is a new carrier. You are thinking of DFDS freight.

same freight though. You can't call it extra

ezstreet5

Deleted User wrote: »

Apparently they already invested 1.1 billion* to connect Tuam and Athenry with a shiny 4 lane motorway

*Was actually 550 mil but sure who's counting

Apparently not Shane Ross, who stated in the Dail that '[T]he Gort-Tuam motorway which opened last year and which was prioritised and delivered at the height of the economic crisis at a total cost to the Exchequer and PPP contractors of €1.149 billion.' Perhaps €550 million was the immediate cost to the Exchequer, and the remaining €599 was borne by the PPP contractors? It would an interesting study to show how that expense is not ultimately borne by the Exchequer. In any event, Mr. Ross provides four significant digits in his answer.

ezstreet5

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I also do the same. Far easier to understand where the stops are and when your stop is approaching. In an earlier post, somebody mentioned about Castlerea - Ballyhaunis being linked to Galway. However, based on what I have read here, I believe that would mean the commuter has to change at Claremorris and then at Athenry. I doubt many would do it. But I certainly have done so on travels throughout Europe.

It would be interesting to see how it would work. If there was no demand for it, then surely there would be no demand for the rail service?

Because a Tuam-Athenry shuttle is slower and clumsier, and because you can't coordinate a connection between bus and rail. Can we expect train crew to step out of the carriage and stroll out of the gate at Athenry to check if the Tuam shuttle has arrived? What if it hasn't, and there is train held in Galway waiting for the inbound from Athenry? It's a disaster.

Folk have no problem changing trains that meet at well scheduled times.

TCDStudent1

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Because a Tuam-Athenry shuttle is slower and clumsier, and because you can't coordinate a connection between bus and rail. Can we expect train crew to step out of the carriage and stroll out of the gate at Athenry to check if the Tuam shuttle has arrived? What if it hasn't, and there is train held in Galway waiting for the inbound from Athenry? It's a disaster.

Folk have no problem changing trains that meet at well scheduled times.

Could the same not be said for trains? What if the train coming from Tuam was delayed?

I have used shuttle buses to rail (in Europe admittedly) and never encountered any issue like you mentioned.

[Deleted User]

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Apparently not Shane Ross, who stated in the Dail that '[T]he Gort-Tuam motorway which opened last year and which was prioritised and delivered at the height of the economic crisis at a total cost to the Exchequer and PPP contractors of €1.149 billion.' Perhaps €550 million was the immediate cost to the Exchequer, and the remaining €599 was borne by the PPP contractors? It would an interesting study to show how that expense is not ultimately borne by the Exchequer. In any event, Mr. Ross provides four significant digits in his answer.

He did, but he did so incorrectly as literally every other mention of cost states 550 million to build it

If it cost 1.149 billion it would work out at probably the most expensive motorway project per km in the entire world that has gone through fields

end of the road

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If the paths don't exist, you can't provide the service.

A rail service from Tuam to Galway will decrease road users and congestion but won't be happening for at least a decade, probably a lot longer, so it is a mute point. It certainly is hypocritical to say a bus from Tuam to Athenry brings nothing to the table but promote a rail service which as it stands can only be the same journey but at lower frequency. If your concern is reducing congestion within this decade, this rail line brings nothing to the table.

By how much will a rail service from Tuam to Galway decrease road users and congestion? Is it enough to justify the massive cost of providing that service? The answers may be in the report a TD wanted prepared but then didn't seem interested in getting published. Hopefully the next Minister lets us in on it.

the cost of providing the rail service isn't massive in the greate scheme of things. it's certainly value for money compared to continuing to cater to single occupant cars.
those of us in support of reopening the line are not saying it has to be done today, if it could be brilliant, if it takes a decade or more then so be it.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I didn't say WRC goes to Athlone, I was talking about freight services on their way to Waterford.

yes and with the wrc opened it would still go to waterford but without traveling part of the dublin cork route between portarlington and kildare but would instead go via tuam/limerick and via the lj to waterford line which would over all have less traffic.
i also believe it's actually a shorter distance but perhapse del.monte or losty dublin could confirm?
you will still need to double athlone to portarlington anyway regardless.

ezstreet5

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Could the same not be said for trains? What if the train coming from Tuam was delayed?

I have used shuttle buses to rail (in Europe admittedly) and never encountered any issue like you mentioned.

The train arriving in Athenry from Tuam is traveling 25 km on a single line, and may only have to navigate a passing train at Ballyglunin, but perhaps not even that. Once it reaches Athenry, it will travel on, either back to Tuam (as a shuttle), to Galway, or to Limerick. And in any case, at Athenry, there will be a guaranteed connection. So a late Tuam-Athenry train will cause system delays, but passengers will not be stranded. Interestingly, a Dublin-Athenry train was delayed (pre Covid, I believe), and the passengers were told that the Athenry-Limerick train would wait, but it didn't. So there was a bit of anger.

Losty Dublin

Isambard wrote: »

same freight though. You can't call it extra

Yep. A new carrier is carrying the old freight even though a different carrier has been carrying that freight to a different destination all along

Pete_Cavan

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I also do the same. Far easier to understand where the stops are and when your stop is approaching. In an earlier post, somebody mentioned about Castlerea - Ballyhaunis being linked to Galway. However, based on what I have read here, I believe that would mean the commuter has to change at Claremorris and then at Athenry. I doubt many would do it. But I certainly have done so on travels throughout Europe.

These are all single track lines so limited capacity. As it stands, more services into Galway will require increased capacity. Those capacity increases aren't going to happen anytime soon so a change at Athenry would be required, no matter how much people try to muddy the waters with "well we haven't seen service pattern yet". No paths, no trains. You would have to reduce services from Athlone or Limerick, neither of which would go down well (not to mention that reducing services from Limerick would be a serious admission of the failure of WRC Phase 1 and hardly help the case for further phases).

It would cost at least €150m to reinstate the line to Claremorris and even that would be a journey time of about an hour to Athenry, before proceeding on to Galway. In reality, trains north of Tuam will be of no use to commuters given the journey time and the frequency will be terrible. You might have one service leaving Claremorris which could get you into Galway early enough to start work, miss that and you may ring in sick. There would be limited, if any, commuters north of Tuam, nowhere near enough to justify the service.

It would be interesting to see how it would work. If there was no demand for it, then surely there would be no demand for the rail service?

Given the reality of the network, the bus would actually be a better service than train from Tuam to Athenry. On a short single track branch, you could only have one train operating a shuttle service. ~30 mins there and back, one train per hour max. Multiple buses could operate at little cost. I am not saying that such a bus service should be provided btw, my point is, if the objective is to get people onto trains into Galway and reduce congestion in the next decade, bus is the only option given the length of time it will take before the train service can operate. The refusal to accept bus as an interim measure which can provide a service now rather than a train in 10 years, shows it has nothing to do with commuting or congestion. If the demand is there now, and the need is there now, why wait a decade rather than do something about it now?

ShaneC1600

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If the paths don't exist, you can't provide the service.

A rail service from Tuam to Galway will decrease road users and congestion but won't be happening for at least a decade, probably a lot longer, so it is a mute point. It certainly is hypocritical to say a bus from Tuam to Athenry brings nothing to the table but promote a rail service which as it stands can only be the same journey but at lower frequency. If your concern is reducing congestion within this decade, this rail line brings nothing to the table.

By how much will a rail service from Tuam to Galway decrease road users and congestion? Is it enough to justify the massive cost of providing that service? The answers may be in the report a TD wanted prepared but then didn't seem interested in getting published. Hopefully the next Minister lets us in on it.

You keep saying the Tuam to Galway rail service will not happen for a decade. Even if you are correct, the best case scenario for the greenway is 2022/23 completion leaving 7 years usage before the big train is coming. For 10 million I'd want to see the greenway used for more than 7 years and the Council would have to pay to lift the greenway based on previous licence agreements. 7 years return for 10 million and then have to pay to lift it, I cant see any council looking for this?
You also say the doubling of the Galway line to Athenry is way down the list, how do you know this? I believe this could be prioritized very quickly with multiple agencies applying for EU funding presently. The doubling of the track is not waiting on that report but the report might state that doubling of the existing is required!

[Deleted User]

I don't think anybody realistically sees the next phase of the WRC opening before 2050 regardless of your stance. there are simply far too many other higher priority/benefit projects to be done ahead of it

ezstreet5

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think anybody realistically sees the next phase of the WRC opening before 2050 regardless of your stance. there are simply far too many other higher priority/benefit projects to be done ahead of it

I foresee it within 5 years. Don't let yourself be swayed by out-of-county chatter. They haven't a clue!

Pete_Cavan

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I foresee it within 5 years. Don't let yourself be swayed by out-of-county chatter. They haven't a clue!

Ground investigations, design, environmental screening, planning approval, procurement, construction, testing, driver training, etc. would take the guts of five years. Realistically, none of that is starting this year and very unlikely to start next year given it isn't on the radar in terms of government capital spending allocations. It could take 5 - 10 years just to get funded alone and that assumes a sound business case which DPER accepts. Unless the report that Canney asked for sets out the business case, unlikely, another report will be needed making the case as per Public Spending Code. The business case here is likely to be favourable given it will also have to consider alternatives and a bus alternative for practically no cost will be more attractive.

The in-county folk might pretend they have a clue but they don't.

L1011

Even if they had a railway order to proceed with works immediately - there is no rolling stock. None at all. And no order for DART expansion which is what's going to release diesel stock (we are unlikely to ever order further diesel stock beyond maybe another 22000 centre car order).

Even if there's a business case its 15 years away.

Lord Glentoran

L1011 wrote: »

Even if they had a railway order to proceed with works immediately - there is no rolling stock. None at all. And no order for DART expansion which is what's going to release diesel stock (we are unlikely to ever order further diesel stock beyond maybe another 22000 centre car order).

Even if there's a business case its 15 years away.

Dart to Maynooth by 2027 means that rolling stock will be cascaded then to other lines, meanwhile it is very easy to source trains from UK and get them rebogied for Irish gauge.

CatInABox

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Dart to Maynooth by 2027 means that rolling stock will be cascaded then to other lines, meanwhile it is very easy to source trains from UK and get them rebogied for Irish gauge.

It's so easy that IR and the NTA looked at it, and decided to go for entirely new trains instead just last year.

Greaney

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The in-county folk might pretend they have a clue but they don't.

Really...they do.

1) When a number of us were looking at cycling infrastructure in the east of county Galway, some of us were advised not to waste energy on turning the Western Rail Corridor into a cycling route. It would eventually be rail.

2)Most of us were fine with this as we would have public transport needs and know Galways' traffic congestion problem intimately. (not to mention Tuam & Athenrys' traffic issues)

3) Some of us got busy looking into immediate cycling needs in our community and this didn't go unnoticed by the council etc.

4) Some 'in county' folk have been part of the West-on-track campaign since the beginning in 2003. Indeed, many of us have wanted that track open for long before that.

5) Some 'in county' folk are/have worked as engineers, architects, planners, community workers etc. and understand the issues very well.

L1011

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Dart to Maynooth by 2027 means that rolling stock will be cascaded then to other lines, meanwhile it is very easy to source trains from UK and get them rebogied for Irish gauge.

DART won't be there by 2027 at the current pace of progress; and that stock:

a: Needs a completely mid-life refit and corrosion repairs
b: is basically spoken for already for Northern/Hazelhatch/Cork commuter

It'll be the second and third DART expansions that might leave actual spare stock

What UK stock? The NTA tried and failed; the stuff that is known to be coming free shortly is either EOL (Pacers) or 25kV AC.

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

1) When a number of us were looking at cycling infrastructure in the east of county Galway, some of us were advised not to waste energy on turning the Western Rail Corridor into a cycling route. It would eventually be rail.

Greaney wrote: »

4) Some 'in county' folk have been part of the West-on-track campaign since the beginning in 2003. Indeed, many of us have wanted that track open for long before that.

I think you've nailed it there. WOT thought that they had a monopoly on ideas for the WRC, based on a shoddy "we were here first" principle. A train running on that alignment will tramp the greenway campaign into the ground. That's the challenge and, genuinely, I wish you all luck with it .