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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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Geuze

There is no question of shuttles? Trains would be Tuam to GY.

It seems to me that doubling GY-Athenry must happen first.

That benefits all the DUB-GY trains, and the existing GY-Limerick trains.

It seems to me that doubling to Athenry at 160kph (and left ready for electrification) should be promoted/sold as reducing delays, cutting journey times, and allowing higher frequencies, for ALL pax: intercity, local traffic to Athenry, WRC to Limerick, and the possible WRC to Claremorris.

Doubling to Athenry allows stations in Renmore/Merlin, Roscam, with city bus stops at these stations, modal transfers to Parkmore, Doughiska, new hosp in Merlin Park.

It also allows higher frequencies to Oranmore (the 8am is packed).

This mention of a manual LC near Oranmore, does that mean staffed? Hardly? Or is it a reference to the crossing over the former N18 near the Quality hotel?

Geuze

ezstreet5 wrote: »

My estimate wasn't to that level of detail, but I'll try to answer some of your questions:

(1) The per-km cost is to upgrade the line to 160 kph single track.
(2) Yes, trains could pass at Tuam, Ballyglunin, and Athenry.
(3) It could, but I would not expect a frequency higher than hourly.
(4) Athenry-Galway can be made in 18 mins, but there is still a manual level crossing near Oranmore and low speed limit on the Lough Atalia Br. Athenry Tuam is a few km longer, but is fairly straight, so perhaps double to 36 minutes. If Athenry Galway was double-tracked, manual level crossing near Oranmore removed, and additional platforms were at Galway, I believe the journey time can be reduced to 30 minutes Tuam to Galway.

Thanks.

If we are going to do it, let's do it right.

Build second track GY-Athenry first, 160kph, eliminate speed restriction on Lough Atalia bridge.

30 mins journey time would be great.

But need to have more than hourly dep from Tuam in morning peak.

ezstreet5

Geuze wrote: »

There is no question of shuttles? Trains would be Tuam to GY.

It seems to me that doubling GY-Athenry must happen first.

That benefits all the DUB-GY trains, and the existing GY-Limerick trains.

It seems to me that doubling to Athenry at 160kph (and left ready for electrification) should be promoted/sold as reducing delays, cutting journey times, and allowing higher frequencies, for ALL pax: intercity, local traffic to Athenry, WRC to Limerick, and the possible WRC to Claremorris.

Or double-tracking should happen concurrently with the WRC. There is nothing more frustrating than rushing to get to Athenry Station for a Galway or Dublin bound train, only to sit there for five minutes waiting for the meeting train to pass. Or, leaving Galway, only to languish on the Lough Atailia bridge waiting for the inbound to pass.

Geuze wrote: »

Doubling to Athenry allows stations in Renmore/Merlin, Roscam, with city bus stops at these stations, modal transfers to Parkmore, Doughiska, new hosp in Merlin Park.

It also allows higher frequencies to Oranmore (the 8am is packed).

It would. Unfortunately the recent announcement mentioned both "double tracking" and a "passing loop," so there is an obvious conflict. My fear is that someone will stupidly claim, "Well, a passing loop at Oranmore is a double track." No, the double track needs to go from Renmore (where it becomes single) to Atherny, at minimum.

Geuze wrote: »

This mention of a manual LC near Oranmore, does that mean staffed? Hardly? Or is it a reference to the crossing over the former N18 near the Quality hotel?

It is XG159, which is an unstaffed boreen. That limits the speed to 50 kph both up and down.

ezstreet5

Geuze wrote: »

If we are going to do it, let's do it right.

If only I was George Michael (pbuh).

Pete_Cavan

Geuze wrote: »

There is no question of shuttles? Trains would be Tuam to GY.

It seems to me that doubling GY-Athenry must happen first.

That's my point, no meaningful service can be provided to/from Tuam without an entire upgrade of the line between Athenry and Galway - an upgrade no works have started on and will take a long time to deliver. It is unlikely at this stage that we would see such upgraded by the end of the decade given the lack of progress and other lines taking priority. Reinstating the line to Tuam would come later, so why not provide an alternative bus service in the intervening 10+ years?

If this was really about sustainable transport, people would be shouting for such a bus service, at least as in interim measure, given how ease and cheap it would be to provide it. Instead, people say they don't want such a bus service, despite the environmental and sustainability rhetoric about the train. Obviously the fear is that the cost of providing a new rail service v an existing bus would kill the rail, which speaks volumes about the viability of it.

Isambard

Geuze wrote: »

There is no question of shuttles? Trains would be Tuam to GY.

It seems to me that doubling GY-Athenry must happen first.

That benefits all the DUB-GY trains, and the existing GY-Limerick trains.

It seems to me that doubling to Athenry at 160kph (and left ready for electrification) should be promoted/sold as reducing delays, cutting journey times, and allowing higher frequencies, for ALL pax: intercity, local traffic to Athenry, WRC to Limerick, and the possible WRC to Claremorris.

Doubling to Athenry allows stations in Renmore/Merlin, Roscam, with city bus stops at these stations, modal transfers to Parkmore, Doughiska, new hosp in Merlin Park.

It also allows higher frequencies to Oranmore (the 8am is packed).

This mention of a manual LC near Oranmore, does that mean staffed? Hardly? Or is it a reference to the crossing over the former N18 near the Quality hotel?

yes on a local level double track Athenry to Galway first makes sense, but on a national level, where would such a scheme come in terms of cost/benefit priority on a network crying out for investment in so many places?

ezstreet5

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That's my point, no meaningful service can be provided to/from Tuam without an entire upgrade of the line between Athenry and Galway - an upgrade no works have started on and will take a long time to deliver. It is unlikely at this stage that we would see such upgraded by the end of the decade given the lack of progress and other lines taking priority. Reinstating the line to Tuam would come later, so why not provide an alternative bus service in the intervening 10+ years?

If this was really about sustainable transport, people would be shouting for such a bus service, at least as in interim measure, given how ease and cheap it would be to provide it. Instead, people say they don't want such a bus service, despite the environmental and sustainability rhetoric about the train. Obviously the fear is that the cost of providing a new rail service v an existing bus would kill the rail, which speaks volumes about the viability of it.

A bus service between where and where?

Geuze

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That's my point, no meaningful service can be provided to/from Tuam without an entire upgrade of the line between Athenry and Galway - an upgrade no works have started on and will take a long time to deliver. It is unlikely at this stage that we would see such upgraded by the end of the decade given the lack of progress and other lines taking priority.

It's 2020 now.

There is really something wrong with society if it takes 10 years to lay maybe 20km (?) of track.

I agree about the priority of other projects.

But if it was decided to double GY-Athenry, I'd hope it could be done within 12-24 months of the decision being made to go ahead.

No land acquisition required, AFAIK.
No planning permission required, AFAIK.

Compare with time taken to build Eiffel tower, skyscrapers in 1920 NYC.

Pete_Cavan

ezstreet5 wrote: »

A bus service between where and where?

Between Tuam and Athenry train station. We keeping getting told here that there is such demand for this that we should spend >€75m on a reinstating a rail service! This is the flaw in the rail line logic, huge cost and effort is required to provide a rail link but no point in putting in a bus service which will cost very little and can provide a more frequent service!

Pete_Cavan

Geuze wrote: »

It's 2020 now.

There is really something wrong with society if it takes 10 years to lay maybe 20km (?) of track.

I agree about the priority of other projects.

But if it was decided to double GY-Athenry, I'd hope it could be done within 12-24 months of the decision being made to go ahead.

No land acquisition required, AFAIK.
No planning permission required, AFAIK.

Compare with time taken to build Eiffel tower, skyscrapers in 1920 NYC.

Double-tracking between Galway and Athenry would require removing level crossings, rerouting roads to provide bridges, embankment alterations, etc. Lots of heavy engineering works. It requires design, environmental assessment, planning approval, procurement and construction. It is also well down the list of priorities and other projects which have to be advanced before this gets a look in.

end of the road

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That's my point, no meaningful service can be provided to/from Tuam without an entire upgrade of the line between Athenry and Galway - an upgrade no works have started on and will take a long time to deliver. It is unlikely at this stage that we would see such upgraded by the end of the decade given the lack of progress and other lines taking priority. Reinstating the line to Tuam would come later, so why not provide an alternative bus service in the intervening 10+ years?

If this was really about sustainable transport, people would be shouting for such a bus service, at least as in interim measure, given how ease and cheap it would be to provide it. Instead, people say they don't want such a bus service, despite the environmental and sustainability rhetoric about the train. Obviously the fear is that the cost of providing a new rail service v an existing bus would kill the rail, which speaks volumes about the viability of it.

it doesn't speak anything about the viability of rail, as a bus service being viable or not has nothing to do with the viability of rail, they are both very different and i suppose to an extent target different markets.
however for decades the "shur a bus l do begorra" attitude has been the prevailing attitude to try and get us out of necessary rail expansion, so if there is indeed a fear that any bus service would be used to not invest in rail, it is a legitimate fear from what i can see.

Losty Dublin

Yet more rail freight traffic is on the way for the Mayo region. At this rate they'll need to double track the line from Ballina to Portarlington as well as the line onwards to Galway.

https://fleet.ie/xpo-logistics-to-create-a-new-ballina-waterford-rail-freight-service/?fbclid=IwAR12j_6QQt-sISjf6j6Cpve_zC3LfKk21F_UcJOd93BefOvSvq3Rv24uUxk

ezstreet5

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Double-tracking between Galway and Athenry would require removing level crossings, rerouting roads to provide bridges, embankment alterations, etc. Lots of heavy engineering works. It requires design, environmental assessment, planning approval, procurement and construction. It is also well down the list of priorities and other projects which have to be advanced before this gets a look in.

That sounds like a nightmare. It's 8 km and probably 10 minutes longer. Services couldn't be coordinated, and you would be adding to the chaos of Athenry traffic during the a.m. and p.m. peaks (with 3000 students en route to school). There is already chaos at the railway station when certain services arrive in the evening, and imagine the Tuam shuttle bus stuck at the level crossing for the train it is trying to meet.

Pete_Cavan

end of the road wrote: »

it doesn't speak anything about the viability of rail, as a bus service being viable or not has nothing to do with the viability of rail, they are both very different and i suppose to an extent target different markets.
however for decades the "shur a bus l do begorra" attitude has been the prevailing attitude to try and get us out of necessary rail expansion, so if there is indeed a fear that any bus service would be used to not invest in rail, it is a legitimate fear from what i can see.

It depends on what constitutes "necessary rail expansion". I don't think spending significant sums of money to provide a very limited rail service to a town with a small population should be considered necessary. Particularly when a superior bus service can be delivered at little cost. We have plenty of places where investment will deliver more returns than reopening the rail line to Tuam.

The point remains, if the demand is there to justify spending >€75m on reinstating the rail line which isn't going to happen by the end of the decade, why not provide a bus service which could be in place by the year in the meantime to satisfy this demand?

Lord Glentoran

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It depends on what constitutes "necessary rail expansion". I don't think spending significant sums of money to provide a very limited rail service to a town with a small population should be considered necessary. Particularly when a superior bus service can be delivered at little cost. We have plenty of places where investment will deliver more returns than reopening the rail line to Tuam.

The point remains, if the demand is there to justify spending >€75m on reinstating the rail line which isn't going to happen by the end of the decade, why not provide a bus service which could be in place by the year in the meantime to satisfy this demand?

Because
1. Buses do not drive modal shift
2. You are arguing on the basis that the land use and transportation policy for Galway remains the same for the next forty years, driving ribbon development and car dependency
3. It isn’t only about connecting Tuam to Athenry.

Pete_Cavan

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Because
1. Buses do not drive modal shift
2. You are arguing on the basis that the land use and transportation policy for Galway remains the same for the next forty years, driving ribbon development and car dependency
3. It isn’t only about connecting Tuam to Athenry.

1. Buses can drive model shift. Modal shift demands on the quality of service, not just the type of service. Tuam - Athenry will deliver a poor quality of service, one train an hour will hardly drive much modal shift. Trial the bus first and see what the experience is. There is also the question of whether the shift is big enough to justify the investment required. This was likely looked at in the report which was prepared, but again, that is being kept from us.

2. I am not. I'm arguing on the realities of the situation. Are we seriously going to see land use and transportation policy for Galway change to significantly increase density in Tuam such that it can justify large capital infrastructure spend over other parts of the network?

3. Well without an entire upgrade of the Galway - Athenry line first, that is all you will get from this rail line. Until G-A upgrade is being progressed, this is only about connecting Tuam to Athenry.

Sam Russell

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Because
1. Buses do not drive modal shift

Well buses on their own add little to modal shift.

If buses get priority as in bus lanes, and priority at traffic lights, such that cars stuck in traffic see buses sail past as they wait, then that makes the driver and passenger think 'Why am I not on that bus?'

The second driver of modal shift is the availability of parking. If that is in short supply, then why not park outside the restricted parking zone and travel in on the bus? P&R is the obvious solution here. Oxford do this quite qell, as parking in Oxford is a nightmare, but park and ride is easy.

The third driver is cost. If we want modal shift them make the bus dirt cheap. In plan is a 90 min fare as part of Busconnects - so why not introduce that now? Of course, it would only make sense if there were a few buses, but they could work on that, instead of waiting until the bypass is built.

The railway from Tuam to Athenry does not figure in this list, and probably would not even come in the top thirty.

ShaneC1600

It is only 15 miles from Athenry to Tuam with a potential to have a design speed of 100mph. This would connect 9000 + people to the city of Galway and with connections to Limerick and Dublin. This is in itself has the potential to remove many cars from the already congested trip into Galway through Claregalway and closer to Galway on a daily basis. Depending on the trainset provided for the trip this could be done in under 35 min with a stop in Athenry and possibly in Ballyglunin where a park and ride could be provided at the side of the N83.
I believe this should be carried out in the same project as doubling of the Athenry 2 Galway line which is being pressed by both Galway City and County Council and Irish Rail where more stations along the line with bus stops and park and ride would reduce the need for cars within the city.

For connectivity reasons the remainder of the WRC should be continued to Claremorris. This section, 16 miles of track connecting over 40,000 people (Castlerea-2000, Ballyhaunis-2300, Castlebar-12000, Ballina-10,400, Westport-6200, Tuam-9000) to Galway City with an alternative hard public transport. So for 31 miles of track reinstatement the potential to open up 40,000 people to the city of Galway and beyond.
40,000 people is not a remarkable number but similar numbers of people are along the Sligo line north of Mullingar (Sligo-19,000, Boyle-2500, Carrick on Shannon-4,000, Longford-10,000, Collooney-1600, Ballymote-1500, Edgworthstown-2500) where the track length is 58 miles, single alignment. On census day 2018, 2810 people boarded and alighted the train from these stations.
On average between 3-5% of the population of a town use rail on a daily basis. (https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/National_Heavy_Rail_2019_FA_ONLINE.pdf)
Example Westport: Alighting and boarding = 286 persons with 6200 population giving 4.6%.

This is similar for most established stations therefore Tuam Station could expect 400 passengers a day equivalent to near 150,000 passengers a year from this station alone.
This is not just a commuting option but also a tourist benefit. Over 1.6 million tourists visit Galway every year. Connecting these tourists with towns like Tuam and Claremorris and onto other high tourist areas in Mayo would have the potential to transform these towns if they upped their tourist offering and if the greenway was alongside the railway tourists and locals could cycle out and get the train back, win-win.

Another benefit of the WRC is that it could remove freight from the mainline freeing up space on the already congested Athlone branch line, possibly buying time before the requirement to double tracking this section.
For full connectivity of the west of Ireland buses do not cut it and will not provide the modal shift required.

Sam Russell

What freight? There is next to no freight on Irish rail.

Isambard

you have to change at Limerick Junction for Limerick most of the time. How on earth could anyone assume there would be a through service from Tuam when there would be two services to change into at Athenry for Galway.

Losty Dublin

Sam Russell wrote: »

What freight? There is next to no freight on Irish rail.

While there isn't a lot nationally there still is traffic, most of which emanates out of Mayo. Ballina is not far from bursting point it carries so much freight. Claremorris has had additional sidings installed to allow additional storage for rolling stock while Westport recently had to reopen it's freight yard for timber trains.

Meanwhile, the news of a new freight flow for XPO to Waterford shows that there is growth and custom for freight. The onset of Brexit and uncertainly around customs checks for EU bound freight will likely work in the favour of such flows.

end of the road

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It depends on what constitutes "necessary rail expansion". I don't think spending significant sums of money to provide a very limited rail service to a town with a small population should be considered necessary. Particularly when a superior bus service can be delivered at little cost. We have plenty of places where investment will deliver more returns than reopening the rail line to Tuam.

The point remains, if the demand is there to justify spending >€75m on reinstating the rail line which isn't going to happen by the end of the decade, why not provide a bus service which could be in place by the year in the meantime to satisfy this demand?

a bus that will in all likely hood end up getting stuck in the same huge congestion problem that galway has doesn't sound like a superior bus service, at least not to me anyway.
you will get a basic bus service at little cost but it already exists in the form of whatever buses that are traveling from tuam as it is which i have no doubt do serve the demand for bus services from those who want them quite well.
a bus does not get one out of investing in rail, if tuam actually does need major investment in public transport going forward, then a railbased sollution of some sort is the only option to deliver actual modal shift, with bus services playing a secondary roll and providing transport integration.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

1. Buses can drive model shift. Modal shift demands on the quality of service, not just the type of service. Tuam - Athenry will deliver a poor quality of service, one train an hour will hardly drive much modal shift. Trial the bus first and see what the experience is. There is also the question of whether the shift is big enough to justify the investment required. This was likely looked at in the report which was prepared, but again, that is being kept from us.

2. I am not. I'm arguing on the realities of the situation. Are we seriously going to see land use and transportation policy for Galway change to significantly increase density in Tuam such that it can justify large capital infrastructure spend over other parts of the network?

3. Well without an entire upgrade of the Galway - Athenry line first, that is all you will get from this rail line. Until G-A upgrade is being progressed, this is only about connecting Tuam to Athenry.

again, we do not know that the train will only go between tuam and athenry, no service pattern has been released, or if it has, i have never come across it.
buses can create modal shift in some cases, but where they will end up getting stuck in large amounts of traffic such as in galway, i have to say i find it hard to believe they would create much if any.

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

What freight? There is next to no freight on Irish rail.

yes there is .
it isn't anything near the amount it once was, and it's mostly concentrated on mayo, but most certainly there is freight on irish railways.

Isambard wrote: »

you have to change at Limerick Junction for Limerick most of the time. How on earth could anyone assume there would be a through service from Tuam when there would be two services to change into at Athenry for Galway.

a change somewhere else on the network wouldn't guarantee anything in relation to tuam to galway.
there very well may be a change athenry and there may not be, the reality is we just do not know and are just speculating either way, even if 1 or 2 individuals against the reopening have tried to claim a change at athenry will exist as absolute fact.
without the line been given the go ahead to reopen, without a confirmed service pattern (at least i have never come across one) then we are in the dark.

Greaney

This is going to be huge for Mayo. And their media coverage of it has a lot more information like this this article

Following on from another article in January

Isambard

Losty Dublin wrote: »

While there isn't a lot nationally there still is traffic, most of which emanates out of Mayo. Ballina is not far from bursting point it carries so much freight. Claremorris has had additional sidings installed to allow additional storage for rolling stock while Westport recently had to reopen it's freight yard for timber trains.

Meanwhile, the news of a new freight flow for XPO to Waterford shows that there is growth and custom for freight. The onset of Brexit and uncertainly around customs checks for EU bound freight will likely work in the favour of such flows.

isn't the "new" freight service just a reinstatement of that withdrawn a year or two ago? SO not growth and probably not new custom either.

Lord Glentoran

Greaney wrote: »

This is going to be huge for Mayo. And their media coverage of it has a lot more information like this this article

Following on from another article in January

Indeed. And this is the kicker.

f you’re going to grow the region by a couple of hundred thousand, how are you going to facilitate that if you take away one of the infrastructures that could be such use?”

Quite.

ezstreet5

Bus sucks. Train is deluxe.

Greaney

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Bus sucks. Train is deluxe.

I have to admit, as a tourist abroad.... I'll always choose train (tram/tube) over the bus. It's a lot more user friendly if you're not familiar with the area it's easier to use. If your impaired it's easier.

Bus doesn't take bikes
The private bus (Athenry) charges extra on top of a travel pass
It's a hassle/impossible for buggies and wheelchairs/mobility scooters to use the bus
It gets stuck in traffic

[Deleted User]

Greaney wrote: »

This is going to be huge for Mayo. And their media coverage of it has a lot more information like this this article

Following on from another article in January

Ah Mayo, you're gas

JCX BXC

Why would level crossings have to be removed when double tracking?