gormdubhgorm wrote: » Not according to Pearse and I agree with him on it. Especially due to the proximity to England, Scotland/Wales - there is still a colonial mindset that Irish people cannot shake. Which is why there is absolutely no discussion about Ireland returning to the commonwealth in order to attain a Republic.
FrancieBrady wrote: » If 4 generations of your family were born in Ireland and you were too, then you are as Irish as anyone.
Fionn1952 wrote: » Flemish is a Dutch language, not a Belgian one. The Swiss do indeed use a number of languages....the only native one has fewer speakers than Irish. Austria's part in the Austro-Hungarian empire has what to do with their speaking German? And you ignored the Cypriots. I'm fully aware a country's native language doesn't have to be named for the country, but none of those countries speak their native language, whatever way you try to spin it. According to you, they're not countries at all apparently!
downcow wrote: » This is part of the issue. From where I'm looking it seems to be all about 'preserving and promoting' the Irish language, and i would go further, that for many involved it is about showcasing, pushing, even forcing it on those who have no interest. It may transform it if you take a leaf out of the loyalist marching scene and just focus on enjoying and celebrating it, live it, breathe it and feel good about it. The rest will then follow with little or no funding needed and it will flourish, just like the band scene is currently. If it doesn't flourish, then maybe its not worth 'preserving and promoting'. ....or put another way, take a chill pill and relax and enjoy it for what it is
If the Orange Intuition’s failure was shambolic, Unionism’s failure was hugely damaging. In what should have been an example of positive and progressive Unionism, comfortable with its place in the UK extending a gesture to those who cherish the Irish language. By doing so, they could illustrate to non-Unionists that Northern Ireland as part of the UK can work for everyone. Unfortunately what happened was that Unionism whipped up hysteria based on its latest bogeyman the Irish Language Act (ILA), all sorts of unfounded allegations were levelled against the language from how it would undermine English, make Unionists feel less British and that masses of the population faced discrimination if they did not speak the language. These fears were never expanded on as they were generally groundless but the ILA became such a big bogeyman that Lundy was in real danger of being temporarily replaced. Arlene Foster alluded that any gesture towards the Irish language would be akin to feeding a crocodile in that those Irish speakers would come back for more and more and more. Gregory Campbell during his time as an MLA infamously mocked the language (curry my yogurt) and then at the DUP party conference said they would treat Sinn Fein’s wish list on the Irish language like toilet paper. The key mistake here apart from the insults was to align the language to Sinn Fein rather than treating the language as an independent entity. Steve Aiken surprisingly said that the UUP were further to the right on the Irish language than even the DUP were. Lord Kilclooney on Twitter has been firing out accusation followed by accusation about the evils of the Irish language and even insinuated that Northern Ireland would have to have all of its street signs in Irish. Ironically I found a wonderful short documentary on Youtube about John Taylor and his newspaper group Alpha. In the snippet on Youtube he discusses how his company bought some rundown houses and upgraded them for single people and small families, at the time (1970’s) there was a campaign to introduce Irish into street names and John Taylor said he would get in ahead of this trend and name the first one in Armagh city. So he named the street where the houses were upgraded “Faugh-A-Ballagh-Court” which means “clear the way” and this Irish slogan is the motto of the Royal Irish Rangers whose barracks was close to the street and thus the street was named in Irish. The maturity from the John Taylor of the 1970’s does not chime with Lord Kilclooney of 2020 and his anti-Irish language scaremongering.
downcow wrote: » Where was I whinging. I think Irish is being artificially propped up instead of letting ordinary Irish people decide what is worth preserving
Yeah_Right wrote: » Francie claims that everyone born on the island of Ireland is Irish. Fact. End of story. No debate. I used Heaslip as an example of how that is a stupid position to take. He was born to Irish parents (one of whom was serving in the Irish army) and raised in Ireland but because he was born in Israel, going by Francie;s logic, he is Israeli. Its ridiculous. Another example is Stephen Moore who was born in Saudi Arabia to Irish parents and raised in Australia. According to Francie, he is Saudi. Do you agree? Going by Francie's logic, yes Ronan O'Gara is American because he spent the first 6 months of his life there. I disagree. Joey is a bit different. Born in NZ to an Irish mum and an Irish-Kiwi dad. Raised in NZ for a bit. I'd call him Irish-Kiwi. My point is that nationality is not based solely on your place of birth. You have to factor in where your parents are from and where you are raised. Francie refuses to do this and just has a blinkered view that everyone born here is Irish so everyone should be happy with a united Ireland. He refuses to accept that people can be born on this island and not be Irish. I don't know if he accepts that people can move to Ireland and become Irish.
BonnieSituation wrote: » You're deliberately being obtuse here. Joey's a Kiwi and ROG is a yank sure. Gdg's narrow view of Irishness rules out the likes of Richardt Strauss and even yourself I'd wager. Remove your anti Francie blinkers for a moment.
FrancieBrady wrote: » There is a huge range of professional input to preserving and promoting a language across a wide area. It isn't a hobby or a part time pursuit is the point. There is no similarity in what a 'language' needs to what a band culture needs. So therefore to whinge that bands don't get enough because they are loyalist is wrong and victimhood. For your information, amateur drama is not supported by the Arts Council here but professional theatre is. The umbrella group for AM Dram may get some funding but it is small in comparison.
BonnieSituation wrote: » Not at all shocking that you missed the point. Nor made a new one.
Hamsterchops wrote: » The English this, the English that, the English ..... The English are ordinary people who just get on with their lives, so I don't subscribe to the English doing anything to hold onto Scotland or Northern Ireland, indeed most English people would probably wish they'd just go away and give them some peace Westminster is another story, and it's Westminster that holds the United Kingdom together as one. So by all means blame the politicians in Westminster, but I don't think you can just blame "The English" for keeping Scotland & Northern Ireland captive.
BonnieSituation wrote: » "The English" Amazing how freely people can say such things and not realise the anachronistic nonsense that it is the "English" rather than the "British" or even the "Scots" themselves that get to decide the destiny of Scotland.
Junkyard Tom wrote: » England will not let go of Scotland easily, wait for the dirty tricks if it looks like it will go indy.
downcow wrote: » I didn’t bring sport up.
munsterlegend wrote: » A typo you made twice. Maybe they are all travelling to support James McClean given he is from the north east too. I don’t know why you bring up sport as it’s an area whereby except soccer the island competes as one.
downcow wrote: » Indeed. A typo
uet69248 wrote: » Not too long, hopefully.
munsterlegend wrote: » They are obviously not great on English geography. Michael O’Neill is at Stoke.
downcow wrote: » I was simply reacting to a post that suggested that Irish people flock to support their own. The example given was flocking to see Roy Keane. I am just pointing out that it is the people in Northern Ireland who are flocking to Sunderland to support Michael O'Neill. Which supports my theory that he is Northern Irish
downcow wrote: » So what is your point. Is speaking Irish now a profession? And how do you perceive the victimhood out of me equating the hobbies of the two communities and looking for parity of esteem
munsterlegend wrote: » What’s the point you are making? Roy Keane is not Irish?
FrancieBrady wrote: » No it isn't because of the work and considerations involved. Bands are made up of non professionals doing it in their spare time...I am not aware of full time bands...so a 'hobby' is the perfect description. Just like amateur drama is or amateur sport. They are supported on that basis. The umbrella groups running these activities get funded too. Stop with the victimhood stuff downcow.
Yeah_Right wrote: » Is Jamie Heaslip Israeli? According to Francie he is.
downcow wrote: » Yes, exactly the reason you guys are not flying to Sunderland, because he is not one of your own, he's from that neighbouring country to the north-east
downcow wrote: » Well you see here is where the problem lies. You see everything in my culture as a hobby - and if I'd be completely honest I don't think that word is totally inappropriate. But when people refer to stuff in your culture as a hobby people go ape****. Irish language is every bit as much a hobby as loyalist band music - or for that matter Ulster Scots language/dialect
BonnieSituation wrote: » Again, who the hell are you to make pronouncements on anyone's Irishness? Also these hypothetical barstoolers that you keep going on about aren't on here debating with you. You're literally talking to a wall. We get it, you're the only one with any right to dance at the crossroads with comely maidens. Are you done yet repeating yourself?
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Not true either as many who are born on this island view themselves as British and identify as such. Just because it is an island does not simply mean that they are the same Irish as you would term yourself. It hardly helps the unionist beleif that they would be included in a UI does it? Which is why I think Commonwealth should be considered as an option to create a UI.
Fionn1952 wrote: » I suppose that barbed comment is as close to magnanimity as I could have expected in your apology Downcow, but I'll take it. It wasn't an answer 'of sorts' by the way, it was a very open answer on how I feel about those two topics. They really just don't matter a huge pile to me, beyond a potentially interesting academic discussion. I have no emotional connection to how much the IRA were or were not infiltrated by the British, or vice versa.
