How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

RobMc59 wrote: »

I heard on the grapevine francie is a rabid Man U fan.

Notts Forest from way back in the Cloughie days.

Lost interest in them a long time ago and the premiership, even though it's on here atm. Young fella is an Everton fan.

munsterlegend

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ahh but he can’t watch them down his local, only good old Irish sports in that pub

You will find the pub easily, it’s the one with no-one in it Bar Francie while the rest of the county is down watching the premiership in the other pub

You can watch international sports and still be Irish? Argentina when they beat England in 86 were shouting Las Malvinas after the game. Playing football didn’t make them any less Argentinian. Watching most football games is like watching paint dry in a lot of cases especially compared to hurling. Even more so now with no one at it to create an atmosphere. GAA championship doesn’t clash with premiership/soccer season usually anyway except for league games.

When I think of Sheffield Wednesday all I think of is hillsborough. Depressing to say the least.

I am surprised that after reading the last couple of pages of posts that I am feeling an amount of sadness for Francie and his United irelander friends.
It really must be very depressing. You see you friends/comrades responsible for slaughtering their neighbours. You lose good friends in the conflict. You watch as more and more comes out about the number of your comrades who were british agents. You think of the ‘good guys’ who were taken away and tortured and murdered as informers but were innocent of it. You see your commanders wealthy and with their noses in the british trough. And very timely with bobby storey passing today, you had to hear after the ira theft of files from castlereagh that a large number of Belfast battalion including Storey were in the payment of British intelligence
All that and then you have to be reminded here that Irish republicanism doesn’t amount to much more now that old men talking.

Sad. But I don’t know what the answer is to make you feel better

downcow wrote: »

I am surprised that after reading the last couple of pages of posts that I am feeling an amount of sadness for Francie and his United irelander friends.
It really must be very depressing. You see you friends/comrades responsible for slaughtering their neighbours. You lose good friends in the conflict. You watch as more and more comes out about the number of your comrades who were british agents. You think of the ‘good guys’ who were taken away and tortured and murdered as informers but were innocent of it. You see your commanders wealthy and with their noses in the british trough. And very timely with bobby storey passing today, you had to hear after the ira theft of files from castlereagh that a large number of Belfast battalion including Storey were in the payment of British intelligence
All that and then you have to be reminded here that Irish republicanism doesn’t amount to much more now that old men talking.

Sad. But I don’t know what the answer is to make you feel better

You are trying hard today downcow, I'll give you that.

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

I am surprised that after reading the last couple of pages of posts that I am feeling an amount of sadness for Francie and his United irelander friends.
It really must be very depressing. You see you friends/comrades responsible for slaughtering their neighbours. You lose good friends in the conflict. You watch as more and more comes out about the number of your comrades who were british agents. You think of the ‘good guys’ who were taken away and tortured and murdered as informers but were innocent of it. You see your commanders wealthy and with their noses in the british trough. And very timely with bobby storey passing today, you had to hear after the ira theft of files from castlereagh that a large number of Belfast battalion including Storey were in the payment of British intelligence
All that and then you have to be reminded here that Irish republicanism doesn’t amount to much more now that old men talking.

Sad. But I don’t know what the answer is to make you feel better

how about that mob of loyalists in north Belfast shouting abuse at kids playing gaa in a park? Are they that insecure about their union? You were on a few weeks ago about how the ‘community’ would deal with it.

If I were you I would be far more worried looking at the recent Scottish independence poll of 54% in favour. It’s can’t be that great if Scotland are voting consistently for a party whose main aim is separation.

munsterlegend wrote: »

how about that mob of loyalists in north Belfast shouting abuse at kids playing gaa in a park? Are they that insecure about their union? You were on a few weeks ago about how the ‘community’ would deal with it.

If I were you I would be far more worried looking at the recent Scottish independence poll of 54% in favour. It’s can’t be that great if Scotland are voting consistently for a party whose main aim is separation.

I hadn’t heard about the loyalist mob shout at gaa kids , but it would not surprise me. I have always been open about the fact that there is and always has been the mirror image of the IRA-types in my community.

downcow wrote: »

I hadn’t heard about the loyalist mob shout at gaa kids , but it would not surprise me. I have always been open about the fact that there is and always has been the mirror image of the IRA-types in my community.

You are doing a bit of 'loyalist shouting' yourself this evening downcow...about a man whose body is hardly cold.

I doubt you have a problem with what loyalists get up to tbh. I'm sure there would be some 'it's a coincidence' type excusing if you had heard of it.

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are doing a bit of 'loyalist shouting' yourself this evening downcow...about a man whose body is hardly cold.

I doubt you have a problem with what loyalists get up to tbh. I'm sure there would be some 'it's a coincidence' type excusing if you had heard of it.

The same one who was on talking about how disgraceful people were for talking ill of Willie Frazer after he died.

Of course, Downcow will deny and refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The same one who was on talking about how disgraceful people were for talking ill of Willie Frazer after he died.

Of course, Downcow will deny and refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy.

"Ar Wullie" was a saint the way Downcow was going on about him.

gormdubhgorm

The real answer for a quicker and more stable UI is for Ireland to join the commonwealth as a Republic. It gives the Unionists living in Ireland some tie to Britain, while also Uniting the Island, problem solved.

Ireland and Britain now share so much culturally (sport/music/way of life/language) they are virtually indistinguishable.
A Spanish foreign student (for example) would have difficulty seeing any real difference between the two Nations lifestyles. That is just a fact.

dd973

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You know exactly the point I am making but you cannot face it. Most Republicans especially working class Southerns identify more with British culture than Irish. Fact of life. Plus you have to ask yourself why did Wogan. O'Carroll, Norton and so on immigrate to the UK? Because it is a better country bigger population, better standard of living, more job opportunities and so on.

If all of this was not true they would have stayed in Ireland.
Not everyone has 'the poor Paddy' boarder area mentality you have. You can never be free by merely thinking you are Irish once a line is removed. Irish culture has long being lost by the working class in particular. It is the last pretense of being Irish hoping for unification. It is all those sort have left.

Celebrities or Actors cross Muir Eireann in the same vein that footballers do, Irish emigrants looking for better circumstances rate Canada, mainland Europe, Oz or New Zealand as better places for quality of life and prospects than the U.K which has an inferior quality of life and is poorer per capita. The image of legions of Irish people being desperate to live in hovels like Kilburn, Luton or Birmingham endures though.

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The same one who was on talking about how disgraceful people were for talking ill of Willie Frazer after he died.

Of course, Downcow will deny and refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy.

That’s a reasonable comment from where you are looking.
You will find though that I was prepared to give my honest appraisal of Willie Frazer, something no one has done here re bobby storey.
There was an old retired police detective visiting my house last night since I posted and it would make your toes curl listening to the antics of Storey and all the stuff he was never convicted of.
I would love to know honestly from some of you what you really feel about so many very senior ira turning out to be on the payroll of British intelligence and how the were allowed to continue to this day in strategic positions.
What do you feel about it?

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I would love to know honestly from some of you what you really feel about so many very senior ira turning out to be on the payroll of British intelligence

I think you're being fed a pack-of-lies to be honest. You take comfort in these lies because it's too painful for you to admit that Unionists, with help from the British state, couldn't defeat the IRA.

No, instead you've ended up in government with former Provos who can pull Stormont down with the stroke of a pen if Unionists don't behave themselves.

Even if we pretend it's true then you've got to come to terms with the fact that the British Army colluded with the IRA to murder your friends/neighbours in the UDR/RUC. How in the hell you consider that something to be triumphant about I do not know.

Either way you're left staring at an 'appalling vista'.

downcow wrote: »

That’s a reasonable comment from where you are looking.
You will find though that I was prepared to give my honest appraisal of Willie Frazer, something no one has done here re bobby storey.
There was an old retired police detective visiting my house last night since I posted and it would make your toes curl listening to the antics of Storey and all the stuff he was never convicted of.
I would love to know honestly from some of you what you really feel about so many very senior ira turning out to be on the payroll of British intelligence and how the were allowed to continue to this day in strategic positions.
What do you feel about it?

Well, you brought him up.

Most of the rest of us didn't see this thread as a place to eulogise someone much like how you did Wullie in the last thread.

It's almost like you were baiting...

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think you're being fed a pack-of-lies to be honest. You take comfort in these lies because it's too painful for you to admit that Unionists, with help from the British state, couldn't defeat the IRA.

No, instead you've ended up in government with former Provos who can pull Stormont down with the stroke of a pen if Unionists don't behave themselves.

Even if we pretend it's true then you've got to come to terms with the fact that the British Army colluded with the IRA to murder your friends/neighbours in the UDR/RUC. How in the hell you consider that something to be triumphant about I do not know.

Either way you're left staring at an 'appalling vista'.

I am not celebrating anything. I am asking how you guys feel re the amount of high level IRA members working for the British state.
I guess some of you here know what was illuminated by the files that were stolen from castlereagh. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when they were opened (if that’s how it worked) and the names of more than 50% of the high ranking Members of Belfast battalion appeared in the payroll of British intelligence. Including bobby storey.
I can see the reasons for suppressing it, but I am very impressed that they were able to.
Is there any republican on here who is going to have the balls to say - yes I know it’s the case and here is what I think about it.

.....and of course it’s an open secret that loyalists were also infiltrated to the very top. I can rationalise that and I would have been surprised if it wasn’t the case

ncounties

Scottish Independence will come first. Full Irish Independence shortly thereafter. I give it 10 years.

downcow wrote: »

I am not celebrating anything. I am asking how you guys feel re the amount of high level IRA members working for the British state.
I guess some of you here know what was illuminated by the files that were stolen from castlereagh. I would love to have been a fly on the wall when they were opened (if that’s how it worked) and the names of more than 50% of the high ranking Members of Belfast battalion appeared in the payroll of British intelligence. Including bobby storey.
I can see the reasons for suppressing it, but I am very impressed that they were able to.
Is there any republican on here who is going to have the balls to say - yes I know it’s the case and here is what I think about it.

.....and of course it’s an open secret that loyalists were also infiltrated to the very top. I can rationalise that and I would have been surprised if it wasn’t the case

We're all long aware of the infiltration of certain members of the IRA by the Brits. Who's denying it?

Do you think it's some sort of "gotcha moment"?

ncounties wrote: »

Scottish Independence will come first. Full Irish Independence shortly thereafter. I give it 10 years.

I can't see any way, with the effects of Brexit to come, how the Tories are going to keep Scotland a part of the UK.
Emotion simply won't cut it anymore.

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can't see any way, with the effects of Brexit to come, how the Tories are going to keep Scotland a part of the UK.
Emotion simply won't cut it anymore.

If Scotland goes there is no Union. Johnson won’t give them a vote though so it could get quite messy after the elections in May 21 should SNP have a large majority. All opinion polls show a steady support for independence which was not the case a few years ago. If such results were up north then a border poll would be called immediately I would think unless Dublin govt told London no.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

That’s a reasonable comment from where you are looking.
You will find though that I was prepared to give my honest appraisal of Willie Frazer, something no one has done here re bobby storey.
There was an old retired police detective visiting my house last night since I posted and it would make your toes curl listening to the antics of Storey and all the stuff he was never convicted of.
I would love to know honestly from some of you what you really feel about so many very senior ira turning out to be on the payroll of British intelligence and how the were allowed to continue to this day in strategic positions.
What do you feel about it?

I'd suggest you start a thread about Bobby Storey if that's what you'd like to discuss. I'm quite aware of who and what Bobby Storey was, so you won't find me on that thread giving misty eyed tribute like you did with Willie (and continued to do when his supply of weapons came to light).

Likewise with IRA infiltration by British Intelligence. As I wasn't a member of the IRA, it's totally irrelevant to me. As another poster mentioned, it opens up a much bigger can of worms for Unionists than it does for me as a non-violent Republican. Certainly could be an interesting, very wide scoped discussion, but I'd say too far off topic to discuss in detail on this thread.

Either way, you're very clearly trying to provoke reaction under the pretense of, 'just asking questions'.

munsterlegend wrote: »

If Scotland goes there is no Union. Johnson won’t give them a vote though so it could get quite messy after the elections in May 21 should SNP have a large majority. All opinion polls show a steady support for independence which was not the case a few years ago. If such results were up north then a border poll would be called immediately I would think unless Dublin govt told London no.

No more than Cameron could, Johnson will not be able to hold back a ref come a certain point of demand.

Junkyard Tom

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can't see any way, with the effects of Brexit to come, how the Tories are going to keep Scotland a part of the UK.
Emotion simply won't cut it anymore.

England will not let go of Scotland easily, wait for the dirty tricks if it looks like it will go indy.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No more than Cameron could, Johnson will not be able to hold back a ref come a certain point of demand.

As idiotic as Cameron was and Brexit will forever be his Suez, there's no way Johnson could get cross party support the way he did for "Better Together".

That the UK split into three four during Covid shows that England ruling the roost isn't always preferable. And that's putting it mildly as a citizen of a republic that was part of the UK once...

Randy Archer

ncounties wrote: »

Scottish Independence will come first. Full Irish Independence shortly thereafter. I give it 10 years.

The Scots will do nothing . There’s nothing under that kilt . Cowards, all talk. Besides , the English won’t green light a referendum

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

England will not let go of Scotland easily, wait for the dirty tricks if it looks like it will go indy.

Agreed. But convincing the Scots they are genuine won't be easy if it happens in this generation.

ncounties

munsterlegend wrote: »

If Scotland goes there is no Union. Johnson won’t give them a vote though so it could get quite messy after the elections in May 21 should SNP have a large majority. All opinion polls show a steady support for independence which was not the case a few years ago. If such results were up north then a border poll would be called immediately I would think unless Dublin govt told London no.

The harder England (or more specifically the Tories) attempt to stop another referendum from taking place, the more likely that referendum will result in Scotland voting for independence.

Tories holding back any democratic exercise will only increase the chances of an independent Scotland.

Randy Archer wrote: »

The Scots will do nothing . There’s nothing under that kilt . Cowards, all talk. Besides , the English won’t green light a referendum

"The English"

Amazing how freely people can say such things and not realise the anachronistic nonsense that it is the "English" rather than the "British" or even the "Scots" themselves that get to decide the destiny of Scotland.

gormdubhgorm

dd973 wrote: »

Celebrities or Actors cross Muir Eireann in the same vein that footballers do, Irish emigrants looking for better circumstances rate Canada, mainland Europe, Oz or New Zealand as better places for quality of life and prospects than the U.K which has an inferior quality of life and is poorer per capita. The image of legions of Irish people being desperate to live in hovels like Kilburn, Luton or Birmingham endures though.

And those Irish societies formed in the 50's and so on in England remained apolitical. And just social clubs because they wanted to blend in. No talk of politics and unification.

Plus many died in the wool Republicans have no issue shouting for an Irish soccer team, filled with 2nd or even 3rd generation 'Irish' players. Many of whom would be Unionists/Royalists at heart. No one seems to see the irony

When I was a young fella I was even voted against the GFA because it would have removed Article 2&3 of the Constitution. But now I realise how ridiculous such a territorial claim was, based on nothing but dogma.

As I already said most Irish people identify more with British culture, than Irishness. 70,000 people only speak Irish as a language of communication. It has being politicised and is merely symbolic.

The religious Catholic/Protestant thing is also ridiculous because most people do not even worship in churches anymore. How many Irish people regularly go to mass these days?

In many ways Irish people still have a mindset of a colony, but at the same time, like to pretend that they are Irish by being a republican and pro-UI. A UI is the 'right thing to say' what some people are trained to say since a young age.

Changing the line on a map will not change this mindset. Especially in the ROI 26 counties where they are already supposed to be 'free'. But most are still immersed in British culture and the English language even after a century of 'freedom'. There is a strong identification with British pop culture - music, sport, entertainment. Is that being Irish, is that being free?
To me (now since I copped on) freedom is a state of mind - not just the line on a map.
If a mindset does not change what is the point of a UI?

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

And those Irish societies formed in the 50's and so on in England remained apolitical. And just social clubs because they wanted to blend in. No talk of politics and unification.

Plus many died in the wool Republicans have no issue shouting for an Irish soccer team, filled with 2nd or even 3rd generation 'Irish' players. Many of whom would be Unionists/Royalists at heart. No one seems to see the irony

When I was a young fella I was even voted against the GFA because it would have removed Article 2&3 of the Constitution. But now I realise how ridiculous such a territorial claim was, based on nothing but dogma.

As I already said most Irish people identify more with British culture, than Irishness. 70,000 people only speak Irish as a language of communication. It has being politicised and is merely symbolic.

The religious Catholic/Protestant thing is also ridiculous because most people do not even worship in churches anymore. How many Irish people regularly go to mass these days?

In many ways Irish people still have a mindset of a colony, but at the same time, like to pretend that they are Irish by being a republican and pro-UI. A UI is the 'right thing to say' what some people are trained to say since a young age.

Changing the line on a map will not change this mindset. Especially in the ROI 26 counties where they are already supposed to be 'free'. But most are still immersed in British culture and the English language even after a century of 'freedom'. There is a strong identification with British pop culture - music, sport, entertainment. Is that being Irish, is that being free?
To me (now since I copped on) freedom is a state of mind - not just the line on a map.
If a mindset does not change what is the point of a UI?

Can you start prefacing your posts with "In my opinion..."?

It'll save us the bother reading that nonsense and assuming you're some authority on Irish nationalism or Irish nationalists and their aspirations.

As a Partitionist you are free to campaign against a UI should a border poll be called.