nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

ShaneC1600

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sigh, refuting your lies, fallacies and makey-upey stories is getting to be a near daily occurrence

Ah well, keeps me occupied

700 average daily users or to express it another way, about 3 weeks worth of trains in a single day

Am I right that the section them numbers are recorded is between the level crossing and the Spar shop?

If it is them numbers are kinda false in a way as the children use that to get to the secondary school, all 300m of the greenway. Also they use the same 300m to get to the sports fields and track. To measure the true numbers using the greenway the counter should be Moate side of the Spar shop. The numbers using the greenway from Athlone to Mullingar or even Moate is not as impressive a headline figure!!

Greaney

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Am I right that the section them numbers are recorded is between the level crossing and the Spar shop?

If it is them numbers are kinda false in a way as the children use that to get to the secondary school, all 300m of the greenway. Also they use the same 300m to get to the sports fields and track. To measure the true numbers using the greenway the counter should be Moate side of the Spar shop. The numbers using the greenway from Athlone to Mullingar or even Moate is not as impressive a headline figure!!

Westport and Waterford greenways are always held up as the result of building a greenway anywhere in the country. Feedback from the Athlone to Mullingar greenway is, it's a terrific local amenity.... a bit expensive for a local amenity mind...

ShaneC1600

Greaney wrote: »

Westport and Waterford greenways are always held up as the result of building a greenway anywhere in the country. Feedback from the Athlone to Mullingar greenway is, it's a terrific local amenity.... a bit expensive for a local amenity mind...

Problem is when the WRC opened and the numbers were poor (unsurprisingly in a recession) at the beginning the greenway crew were quick to jump on the waste of money, same could easily happen to the greenway if all coffee shops and hotels are not flying year round but nobody will be held accountable but I guess we will have a nice walkway!

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

Westport and Waterford greenways are always held up as the result of building a greenway anywhere in the country. Feedback from the Athlone to Mullingar greenway is, it's a terrific local amenity.... a bit expensive for a local amenity mind...

Pot calling the kettle black. It's not a business - it's a service etc etc.

Pete_Cavan

Del.Monte wrote: »

Back in the 1960s it could be done in 25 mins with a request stop at Ballyglunin which is, of course, how the existing WRC should be operated i.e request stops at Sixmilebridge, Ardrahan and Craughwell. However, when you have inept politicians and CIE, a company with no vision except the lump for workers and golden handshakes for the higher echelons, you get the current mess. :rolleyes:

So €50m for an hourly service + then ongoing operational costs. In no way is that cost justifiable. Double the service could be provided by bus at 10% of the cost including operating costs.

The politicians and CIE have no intention of delivering the railway but paying lip service to it is an easy way of fooling fantasist into voting for you. Suits both to believe the lie than face reality.

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

Sean Canney (Tuam) topped the poll in the election
.

As long as Sean Canney's name is on the ballot paper, he'll top the poll in East Galway. Anyone who tries to use his performance as a yardstick for either rail or greenway doesn't understand local politics. I think we agree on that one.

intellectual dosser

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

So €50m for an hourly service + then ongoing operational costs. In no way is that cost justifiable. Double the service could be provided by bus at 10% of the cost including operating costs.

There are many reasons I disagree with you, but can I ask if thats your belief then is rail justifiable anywhere? If buses are cheaper to put in place and run then why do we have rail anywhere in Ireland?

Isambard

intellectual dosser wrote: »

There are many reasons I disagree with you, but can I ask if thats your belief then is rail justifiable anywhere? If buses are cheaper to put in place and run then why do we have rail anywhere in Ireland?

well often rail would be quicker but add a slow train to an expensive service gives bus the edge.

donvito99

intellectual dosser wrote: »

There are many reasons I disagree with you, but can I ask if thats your belief then is rail justifiable anywhere? If buses are cheaper to put in place and run then why do we have rail anywhere in Ireland?

Despite the efforts of some here, I don't think anyone here is against rail.

As far as I see it, rail is required where demand outstrips what a bus/lorry can efficiently serve, so large amounts of people or goods.

Greaney

Muckyboots wrote: »

Pot calling the kettle black. It's not a business - it's a service etc etc.

A Greenway is refered to as a 'Toursim Product' according to the first sentence regarding policy on the matter in gov.ie

Pete_Cavan

intellectual dosser wrote: »

There are many reasons I disagree with you, but can I ask if thats your belief then is rail justifiable anywhere? If buses are cheaper to put in place and run then why do we have rail anywhere in Ireland?

Of course. Existing operating rail services are not comparable to rebuilding lines abandoned more than half a century ago at enormous capital cost and subsequent operating cost ( almost certainly a loss) when the infrastructure exists for a superior level of bus service at low operating cost.

It's interesting that the pro-rail side what to extend the conversation to include all rail, while at the same time they are telling us that the experience of other greenways can't be applied here. A report into the relative costs and benefits of rail and greenway on this line would be great and a definitive answer as to which is most economically beneficial could be provided. The taxpayer has already paid for a report on the rail operation but we are being denied access to it for some unknown reason.

Sam Russell

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

One way, what would be the travel time on rail between Tuam and athenry?

Ennis to Athenry is about 50 min running time and is approx twice the distance. So at a guess, a 30 min running time could be expected. Frequency is more complicated.

Whether that could be integrated into the current heavy demands of passenger wanting to travel the route from Tuam to Athenry has yet to be determined. How many would want to go on to Galway, Ballinasloe and onward to Heuston, or to Ennis and onwards to Cork?

Hard to know what the traffic pattern would be. The Ennis to Athenry was averaging 8 passengers per train for the first few years according to Colm McCarthy. Are they any new figures for that portion of the route, and their intended final destination?

Would a simple shuttle service suffice?

The Ballybrophy line is under threat and that is already built.

Sligo eye

Sam Russell wrote: »

Ennis to Athenry is about 50 min running time and is approx twice the distance. So at a guess, a 30 min running time could be expected. Frequency is more complicated.

Whether that could be integrated into the current heavy demands of passenger wanting to travel the route from Tuam to Athenry has yet to be determined. How many would want to go on to Galway, Ballinasloe and onward to Heuston, or to Ennis and onwards to Cork?

Hard to know what the traffic pattern would be. The Ennis to Athenry was averaging 8 passengers per train for the first few years according to Colm McCarthy. Are they any new figures for that portion of the route, and their intended final destination?

Would a simple shuttle service suffice?

The Ballybrophy line is under threat and that is already built.

Are there any new figures for the route? This has been discussed extensively on the thread, but for your benefit have a read of this:

https://t.co/BTqDeyubMx

And as to Colm McCarthy being quoted as a source on railways, well it’s a bit like getting Pontius Pilate to write a character reference for Jesus.

Sam Russell

Sligo eye wrote: »

Colm McCarthy being quoted as a source on railways, it’s a bit like getting Pontius Pilate to write a character reference for Jesus.

Well, yes. But the figure quoted needs a modern version which is not published. Figures published are for any traffic on the line from Ennis to Galway, which includes Oranmore to Galway which has nothing to do with Ennis to Athenry.

What would be useful is the numbers of passengers getting on and off at each stop from Ennis to Athenry over, say, a typical week.

ezstreet5

Muckyboots wrote: »

As long as Sean Canney's name is on the ballot paper, he'll top the poll in East Galway. Anyone who tries to use his performance as a yardstick for either rail or greenway doesn't understand local politics. I think we agree on that one.

It shows that the greenway campaign's attempts to defame the man and oust him from his position were unsuccessful. And if the majority of East Galway constituents favour a greenway instead of a railway, it shows that we were not the one-issue voters hoped for by the campaign (or that our one issue was not this one).

eastwest

donvito99 wrote: »

Despite the efforts of some here, I don't think anyone here is against rail.

As far as I see it, rail is required where demand outstrips what a bus/lorry can efficiently serve, so large amounts of people or goods.

Apparently, if you support the use of railways that will never be opened as greenways, that makes you anti-rail.
Don't ask me to explain it, I have no idea.

Del.Monte

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, yes. But the figure quoted needs a modern version which is not published. Figures published are for any traffic on the line from Ennis to Galway, which includes Oranmore to Galway which has nothing to do with Ennis to Athenry.

What would be useful is the numbers of passengers getting on and off at each stop from Ennis to Athenry over, say, a typical week.

How much "serious" marketing of the existing WRC is carried out by CIE - I have a fairly shrewd idea that it's much the same as for other threatened routes such as Arklow/Rosslare, Waterford/Limerick Junction. Zilch, nada, **** all - unless you know something that I don't. The company can't even produce a printed all lines inter-city timetable for sale to the public and there's no need to give the standard answer that everybody has a smart phone.

donvito99

Del.Monte wrote: »

How much "serious" marketing of the existing WRC is carried out by CIE - I have a fairly shrewd idea that it's much the same as for other threatened routes such as Arklow/Rosslare, Waterford/Limerick Junction. Zilch, nada, **** all - unless you know something that I don't. The company can't even produce a printed all lines inter-city timetable for sale to the public and there's no need to give the standard answer that everybody has a smart phone.

Surely the WRC shouldn't actually require 'marketing' - glossy campaigns and promotional fares - if it was actually a useful service?

Sam Russell

Del.Monte wrote: »

How much "serious" marketing of the existing WRC is carried out by CIE -

Well,if one were to believe the proponents for the Tuam Athenry line, there is huge demand so no marketing would be needed.

Of course, that is unlikely as the population just is not there to even pay for the marketing let alone the train line.

On the other hand, a Luas from Claregalway to Galway linking to an East West Luas would be jammed with or without marketing.

PeadarCo

intellectual dosser wrote: »

There are many reasons I disagree with you, but can I ask if thats your belief then is rail justifiable anywhere? If buses are cheaper to put in place and run then why do we have rail anywhere in Ireland?

Buses are cheaper than rail but don't have the capacity. In densely populated areas you have issues with limited road space and high demand
A good example of this is Dublin where Urban rail is oversubscribed. Both the Dart and Luas are heavily used at normal rush hour. Its also the reason why there has been a push for an underground to get around lack of space on the surface of Dublin City centre.

On inter urban routes high speed rail competes not with slow buses but with airplanes over short to medium distances between dense urban areas. Hence why you see high speed rail in operation in places like Japan, France, Germany, East Coast of the US etc. All areas that have large dense population centres located relatively close together. In Ireland Dublin is the only place that comes close to the places like that. There is a reason why Dublin has the most developed rail infrastructure in the country as limited as it is.

Your question indicates a lack of understanding of the benefits and costs associated with Bus and Rail. There is no perfect transport system. Different areas require different modes. A rural area with a low population density even for Ireland(look at the densities of heavily used rail services for comparison) does not require a rail service. There are far cheaper alternatives to provide the equivalent service. The money saved can then be used for Rail upgrades that are required ie Dublin underground, Navan to Dublin rail link, Dublin Airport rail link, Dublin to Cork upgrades etc.

[Deleted User]

Greaney wrote: »

A Greenway is refered to as a 'Toursim Product' according to the first sentence regarding policy on the matter in gov.ie

Jesus wept you are bad at this lol

What it actually states on that linked page is

The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport recognises the benefits that can arise from the further development of Greenways in Ireland, as a tourism product with significant potential to attract overseas visitors, for local communities in terms of economic benefits, and for all users as an amenity for physical activity and a contributor to health and wellbeing.

In addition, as per the Strategy for the FutureDevelopment of National and Regional Greenways released in 2018:

The success of the recently opened Waterford Greenway and the Great Western Greenway in Mayo, opened in 2010, clearly demonstrates the potential of Greenways as economic contributors to rural communities through increased tourism. In addition, the benefits for the health and wellbeing of local communities through the use of Greenways as recreational amenities are significant. The experience from Waterford, Westmeath and Mayo has been extremely positive and there has been a transformative effect on many small towns along and adjacent to those Greenways. It is very evident that the State’s investment in Greenways has delivered a significant boost for these locations.

I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to highlight further, the benefits of Greenways.

ShaneC1600

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well,if one wre to believe the proponents fr the Tuam Athenry line, there is huge demand so no marketing would be needed.

Of course, that is unlikely as the population just is not there to even pay for the marketing let alone the train line.

On the other hand, a Luas from Claregalway to Galway lining to an East West Luas would be jammed with or without marketing.

It's getting better and better. You think linking claregalway with the city with a 40mph tram is good value for money where claregalway has a population of just over 1000? At least the WRC will actually connect the entire northwest to the city of Galway.

donvito99

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

At least the WRC will actually connect the entire northwest to the city of Galway.

That's a stretch. The WRC only connect the bits of the west that lie next to a station on the railway.

Sam Russell

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

It's getting better and better. You think linking claregalway with the city with a 40mph tram is good value for money where claregalway has a population of just over 1000? At least the WRC will actually connect the entire northwest to the city of Galway.

THE luas would also require a P&R to be viable. The fact Claregalway is a traffic black spot would suggest that there would be demand, while Ballyglunin has no such problem.

monument

Sligo eye wrote: »

Keeps you occupied? I suggest you find a more rewarding hobby.

You've had enough warnings lately, try a ban now.

-- moderator

ShaneC1600

Sam Russell wrote: »

THE luas would also require a P&R to be viable. The fact Claregalway is a traffic black spot would suggest that there would be demand, while Ballyglunin has no such problem.

And bringing everyone into claregalway will sort the traffic? How will that work? Into a slow luas where majority of the traffic is passing Tuam or Ballyglunin on the way to claregalway.

Lord Glentoran

Deleted User wrote: »

Sigh, refuting your lies, fallacies and makey-upey stories is getting to be a near daily occurrence

Ah well, keeps me occupied

Where did Greaney lie? I find them one of the least hyperbolic posters here but clearly YMMV.

ShaneC1600

donvito99 wrote: »

That's a stretch. The WRC only connect the bits of the west that lie next to a station on the railway.

Well in fairness there isnt a bus stop at every house either so having a network of stations located throughout the northwest that are connected by rail linking the stations to Galway, Limerick, Dublin and maybe even the lucky stations along the route!
But only if the design and trains provide a proper service and proper money is spent on providing same.

ezstreet5

Muckyboots wrote: »

You've had some choice words for Minister Cannon yourself on this thread and thrown some pretty reckless and baseless aqusations in relation to Velo. At least the people who campaigned against Sean Canney didn't hide behind anonymity, even if was a bit over the top for some people's sensitivities.

I said nothing defamatory against Cannon; it is all honest opinion. It is not untrue that Cannon called for the abandonment of the Athlone to Galway greenway in 2015 after meeting with landowners. And it is my honest opinion that his promise of "No CPOs" was reckless and set progress back on this segment by years. And yes, I have a degree of residual anger over what I consider to be a political failure and missed opportunity.

And I find it bizarre that Cannon is now claiming "mission accomplished" in posts on social and mainstream media over a singular reference to the QMG in the new RSES, while at the same time having little-to-no enthusiasm for EV2, which is included by name in the Programme for Government. We all know that the RSES seems internally conflicted with regard to the future of the WRC, and we're all trying to resolve that in our own minds. After reading both Cannon's and WOT's summaries, WOT's seems closer to what's actually in the document (but not 100% accurate either). And using Cannon's logic, if the QMG's inclusion in the RSES makes it "a certainty," then isn't railway reactivation also a certainty?

I don't dislike either Cannon or Canney personally. The former blocked me on FB many years ago because I was openly critical of his inaction on another issue. He's very good at controlling the narrative, and dissenting opinions are quickly deleted and the poster is blocked.

Finally, those campaigning against Canney are definitely hiding behind a veil of anonymity. There is the public campaign on the QMG FB page, and then there is the defamatory and perverted campaign on the West-on-Crack FB page, which no one will own up to.

Muckyboots

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Finally, those campaigning against Canney are definitely hiding behind a veil of anonymity. There is the public campaign on the QMG FB page, and then there is the defamatory and perverted campaign on the West-on-Crack FB page, which no one will own up to.

If this is what you were talking about, I agree and it should be taken down.