Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

ezstreet5 wrote: »

You could probably still get a hyrail-equipped speedswing from Claremorris to Athenry. Except for the N63 bridge at Abbeyknockmoy, but that's not really the point.

The conversation in council circles, and particularly in inter county rail committee circles, is all about reopening the wrc. There's never a mention of building it.

ezstreet5

eastwest wrote: »

The conversation in council circles, and particularly in inter county rail committee circles, is all about reopening the wrc. There's never a mention of building it.

Semantics, I suppose. The roadbed and bridges (save one) are built. Re-laying track with modern concrete crossties, signaling upgrades, a bridge over the N63, maybe one automatic level crossing, plus refurbing the Tuam station (which should be done anyway), could possibly be considered as "building a railway." But the truly environmentally intrusive excavation already exists, and the millions of tons of embankment - which is the backbone of the railroad - is already there.

westtip

Sligo eye wrote: »

To be honest eastwest, it’s you and your comrade Westtip who have ensured that the railway will be coming back. I myself know of several people who were spurred into action to campaign for the railway thanks to the drip feed of bile and anti rail nonsense the pair of you have been putting out for years.

I do know that your campaign is viewed by those in government and opposition circles as one driven largely by spite and one well known commentator has described you guys as the Burke and Hare of Irish railways, waiting for the body to turn cold so it can be robbed for use as a greenway, or a railway graveyard, as many of us call them.

How unfortunate for you guys then that far from obediently dying so you can take it from us, the railway has now got a new lease of life, not just from the politicians but also the NWRA, who are putting the restored railway at the heart of their Transport strategy for rejuvenating the North West. That’s despite the desperate spin that you guys and Deputy Cannon have been trying in the media.

I think Losty Dublin has a great phrase that gets an airing here occasionally; “the rails are coming back, the West’s on track!”

Just realized I don't need the comedy channel on Sky anymore, you have made my day with that piece, hilarious stuff.

ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

Just realized I don't need the comedy channel on Sky anymore, you have made my day with that piece, hilarious stuff.

He who laughs last....

westtip

ezstreet5 wrote: »

He who laughs last....

Indeedie but good to see there is another stand up out there - I see from the recent FB post from WOT there is no mention of the rail report!

Pete_Cavan

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Semantics, I suppose. The roadbed and bridges (save one) are built. Re-laying track with modern concrete crossties, signaling upgrades, a bridge over the N63, maybe one automatic level crossing, plus refurbing the Tuam station (which should be done anyway), could possibly be considered as "building a railway." But the truly environmentally intrusive excavation already exists, and the millions of tons of embankment - which is the backbone of the railroad - is already there.

That is absolutely not true at all. Look at the level of work (and cost) that was required to reopen Athenry - Ennis. Then consider that even that delivered a substandard railway prone to flooding. The level of work you describe would certainly require planning approval and some level of environmental assessment, even if only a Part 8. The automatic level crossing and bridge over a National road would instigate some form of planning. Tuam station is also likely to have a designation which will require approval before works can be done to it. Adequate drainage, signalling infrastructure, accommodation works, etc. will involve extensive works. The backbone of the railroad may be already there but there is still a huge amount of (extremely expensive) meat to be put on those bones.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That is absolutely not true at all. Look at the level of work (and cost) that was required to reopen Athenry - Ennis. Then consider that even that delivered a substandard railway prone to flooding. The level of work you describe would certainly require planning approval and some level of environmental assessment, even if only a Part 8. The automatic level crossing and bridge over a National road would instigate some form of planning. Tuam station is also likely to have a designation which will require approval before works can be done to it. Adequate drainage, signalling infrastructure, accommodation works, etc. will involve extensive works. The backbone of the railroad may be already there but there is still a huge amount of (extremely expensive) meat to be put on those bones.

Planning would be required.
In the case of claremorris-collooney, the original line was built as a light railway and would have to be largely rebuilt completely. All that is left is most of the alignment.

CatInABox

eastwest wrote: »

Planning would be required.
In the case of claremorris-collooney, the original line was built as a light railway and would have to be largely rebuilt completely. All that is left is most of the alignment.

Of course it would be required. They tried to "upgrade" a section of the line to Velorail, only to be slapped back and told that it'd require planning permission. The only thing they were allowed to do without planning was to clear the line of vegetation.

ShaneC1600

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That is absolutely not true at all. Look at the level of work (and cost) that was required to reopen Athenry - Ennis. Then consider that even that delivered a substandard railway prone to flooding. The level of work you describe would certainly require planning approval and some level of environmental assessment, even if only a Part 8. The automatic level crossing and bridge over a National road would instigate some form of planning. Tuam station is also likely to have a designation which will require approval before works can be done to it. Adequate drainage, signalling infrastructure, accommodation works, etc. will involve extensive works. The backbone of the railroad may be already there but there is still a huge amount of (extremely expensive) meat to be put on those bones.

What area is prone to flooding? Kiltartan?
What difference does it make if sections require planning?

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

What area is prone to flooding? Kiltartan?
What difference does it make if sections require planning?

The commonly held belief among the councillors who oppose the greenway is a vague idea that all that is needed to open the wrc is a few spare trains. There is a belief that there is a railway in situ that just requires maintenance, and that the whole job can be done for money that is there already but that is being unfairly expended in dublin.
The reality is that this would be a major project that involves removing everything that is there and rebuilding a modern line, with numerous diversions away from the existing route, as well as bridges etc. It would of course require planning in the form of a railway order, as well as EIS etc.
But it is all dependent on the rail review which minister Ross has suppressed to suit the wishes of a certain TD. Rumour around Dail Eireann is that it will be released as soon as Ross leaves office. And most TDs agree that the wrc is finished, mention of it invokes laughter in many cases.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That is absolutely not true at all. Look at the level of work (and cost) that was required to reopen Athenry - Ennis. Then consider that even that delivered a substandard railway prone to flooding. The level of work you describe would certainly require planning approval and some level of environmental assessment, even if only a Part 8. The automatic level crossing and bridge over a National road would instigate some form of planning. Tuam station is also likely to have a designation which will require approval before works can be done to it. Adequate drainage, signalling infrastructure, accommodation works, etc. will involve extensive works. The backbone of the railroad may be already there but there is still a huge amount of (extremely expensive) meat to be put on those bones.

Railroad? Ireland isn’t Trumpania yet.

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Railroad? Ireland isn’t Trumpania yet.

Not far off.
A lot of the railway rhetoric bears a close resemblance to the maga saga.

Sam Russell

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

What area is prone to flooding? Kiltartan?
What difference does it make if sections require planning?

Low lie the fields of Athenry.

I was up that area a few years back and the place was flooded, with roads blocked. The whole area is boggy and very flat and low.

ShaneC1600

Sam Russell wrote: »

Low lie the fields of Athenry.

I was up that area a few years back and the place was flooded, with roads blocked. The whole area is boggy and very flat and low.

Athenry does not flood for sure on either rail approach, nor is Athenry boggy. Only place I know has flooded on the reopened section is Kiltaran near the level crossing and that is currently getting drainage works carried out by the OPW C/O the Council. I've not ever seen or heard of any other location. The section between Athenry and Tuam is well raised although that does go through a bog next to Tuam golf course which required a little piling to reinstate the railway.

ShaneC1600

eastwest wrote: »

And most TDs agree that the wrc is finished, mention of it invokes laughter in many cases.

Possibly because of the constant lies and misrepresentations by the greenway supporters. I really dont get the need for the arrogance of the tone but each to their own I guess.

It is amazing though how Eastwest and Westipp keep having these TDs and policy advisers constantly laughing at the WRC yet the WRC is still there, written into each planning document, discussed in the framework for government, written into the recent NWRA document. One could wonder if the the laughter is actually at the WRC at all??

eastwest wrote: »

Not far off.
A lot of the railway rhetoric bears a close resemblance to the maga saga.

That would be the obsession with planning one house on an acre, ring roads and out of town shopping and working estates I think you’ll find

Pete_Cavan

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Railroad? Ireland isn’t Trumpania yet.

I used the same wording as ezstreet5. Does the term really bother you that much or is it fine when used by someone pro-WRC?

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I used the same wording as ezstreet5. Does the term really bother you that much or is it fine when used by someone pro-WRC?

I hadn’t noticed tbh. Americanisms do generally irritate me though. When I was in college one of the girls went to the States for the summer and spent second year speaking in a weird twang overlaid on her Drimnagh accent. But I digress...

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

The commonly held belief among the councillors who oppose the greenway is a vague idea that all that is needed to open the wrc is a few spare trains. There is a belief that there is a railway in situ that just requires maintenance, and that the whole job can be done for money that is there already but that is being unfairly expended in dublin.
The reality is that this would be a major project that involves removing everything that is there and rebuilding a modern line, with numerous diversions away from the existing route, as well as bridges etc. It would of course require planning in the form of a railway order, as well as EIS etc.
But it is all dependent on the rail review which minister Ross has suppressed to suit the wishes of a certain TD. Rumour around Dail Eireann is that it will be released as soon as Ross leaves office. And most TDs agree that the wrc is finished, mention of it invokes laughter in many cases.

there isn't such a belief.
as already explained there is a railway there all be it it isn't fit for traffic.
everyone knows that it will need complete rebuilding due to being out of use for so long which would be no different to any line that has been out of use for a long period of time.
if it is rebuilt there won't be deviations to it in all likely hood, whether there should be or not or whether one wants such to happen is a separate issue.

Pete_Cavan

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

What area is prone to flooding? Kiltartan?
What difference does it make if sections require planning?

The point is that the fairlyminimal works on Athenry - Ennis wasn't even sufficient to avoid flooding on the line despite costing €100m. Reopening further sections will likely require more works given an extra decade without maintenance and desire to avoid more flooding. The suggestion that further sections can be reopened without planning and with little work is clearly false.

Greaney

Sam Russell wrote: »

Low lie the fields of Athenry.

I was up that area a few years back and the place was flooded, with roads blocked. The whole area is boggy and very flat and low.

Sorry, you're way off there. Athenry isn't boggy. East of Oranmore is (and you can see it from the train... which has run for over 100 years). When there were serious floods in East Galway about 10 years back, they opened a section of the motorway to get to Loughrea (flooding at Craughwell and around Loughrea town). They didn't need to open it to Athenry (so the motorway exit was still was blocked off to Athenry) because the old Galway roads were all still passable.

eastwest wrote: »

The commonly held belief among the councillors who oppose the greenway is a vague idea that all that is needed to open the wrc is a few spare trains.

This statement seems to be at odds with this one.....

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

.... Look at the level of work (and cost) that was required to reopen Athenry - Ennis. .....drainage, signalling infrastructure, accommodation works, etc. will involve extensive works. The backbone of the railroad may be already there but there is still a huge amount of (extremely expensive) meat to be put on those bones.

Since there were plenty of pro rail politicians about at the time of phase 1, who wanted it to extend all the way to Sligo, and got nasty treatment from the Quietman Greenway Group at the last elections, I think they knew full well the work ahead of them..... and most of that is grant applications, which are hard work. It also makes the green way hard work with a few CPO's to boot, for access other than Athenry, Ballyglunin & Tuam.

All those details aside, rail is the travel option many disabled can use without assistance. Furthermore, I don't know many teens who'd use it to go to school more than two miles away. (I do a lot of work with teenagers). They can't drive either. Rail delivers on 'real life' transport issues.

A Greenway is a tourism product.... Alas some of the towns ain't ready for the tourists they're already getting. We've to up our tourism game in East Galway by a lot more, to make some of our towns worth a long cycle.

I believe that is firmly in the hands of many of the businesses, because the community groups are playing a blinder, but can only do so much.

And that's why I wonder about the greenway being sold to folk as an answer to their ailing towns, which are full of empty shop units that are neither for sale or to let.

ezstreet5

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That is absolutely not true at all. Look at the level of work (and cost) that was required to reopen Athenry - Ennis. Then consider that even that delivered a substandard railway prone to flooding. The level of work you describe would certainly require planning approval and some level of environmental assessment, even if only a Part 8. The automatic level crossing and bridge over a National road would instigate some form of planning. Tuam station is also likely to have a designation which will require approval before works can be done to it. Adequate drainage, signalling infrastructure, accommodation works, etc. will involve extensive works. The backbone of the railroad may be already there but there is still a huge amount of (extremely expensive) meat to be put on those bones.

I'm fairly certain that the WRC is deemed to have a still-valid Railway Order. If that's the case, then "works for the maintenance, improvement or repair [of the] railway" are exempted development under the P&D Act. So no "planning permission" or Part 8, or SID application is needed. No EIA is needed.

That's not to say that there won't be a need for some ancillary planning applications here or there, for example (as we saw in Phase 1), a few to build new stations or to alter a protected structure. But overall, the reactivation project would appear to be exempted development, and CIE could today replace the tracks, install modern signaling, install automatic level crossings, and even operate trains. The N63 bridge is a separate matter. (And as an aside, I would argue that the scope of the exemption allows CIE to install security fencing within (or across) their property).

I don't consider the cost to be preposterous, compared to new motorways, CPOs for bus lanes, and other recent transportation projects.

With regard to flooding, I believe the line has flooded several times at Ballycar, Newmarket on Fergus, which is south of Ennis. So I don't know to what degree that should be considered 'Phase 1' (maybe some upgrade was made there). I believe the line also flooded at Kiltartan twice (for much shorter outages). There are flood relief works in the pipeline for both of these locations, with the Ballycar solution causing some interagency strife with IDA.

Greaney wrote: »

I don't know many teens who'd use it to go to school more than two miles away. (I do a lot of work with teenagers). They can't drive either. Rail delivers on 'real life' transport issues.
.

How would a Tuam to Athenry rail deliver teens, in the two to five mile radius, to their school? Straight answer to a straight question please.

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I'm fairly certain that the WRC is deemed to have a still-valid Railway Order.

Correct

ezstreet5 wrote: »

If that's the case, then "works for the maintenance, improvement or repair [of the] railway" are exempted development under the P&D Act. So no "planning permission" or Part 8, or SID application is needed. No EIA is needed.

You are playing with words and planning jargon. There are lots of new bungalows, fully planning compliant, within spitting distance of the rail line and crossings between Tuam and Claremorris. All the safety issues around these would have to be addressed. What were quiet boreens 50 years ago are busy rights of way to clusters of "one off houses" that offend you so much. Eastwest is correct in that new routes would inevitably have to be sought for both efficiency and safety. I know a few lads who will make good use of the abandoned stretches of line that would be inevitable if the WRC was going to be woken from its grave.

Muckyboots wrote: »

How would a Tuam to Athenry rail deliver teens, in the two to five mile radius, to their school? Straight answer to a straight question please.

What’s that Skippy? The sound of a barrel being scraped? *Kangaroo tuts excitedly*

Greaney

Muckyboots wrote: »

How would a Tuam to Athenry rail deliver teens, in the two to five mile radius, to their school? Straight answer to a straight question please.

I've personally talked to the folk in Ballyglunin in one of their station events. They'd all like the rail. They're under no illusion to the tourism draw of their wee station that they love and have put a lot of work in to.

Their children would go to secondary school in either Tuam or Athenry (mostly Athenry). Depending on timetables, that will determine their school choice if rail comes.

There are also young people in the area who go on to college. They cannot afford the Galway rents so some of the young people rent in Athenry and then get the train to town to go to college. The cost of going to college would be significantly lower if they had rail. Running a car into the city, and paying for parking would still be huge for a student. An annual ticket for a worker in Athenry commuting to Galway is less than €1.4K a year. (Irish Rail reduced the student tickets to match that I believe, because student use shot up a couple of years back). This isn't a train business, it's a train service so it can't be way out of students reach.

Ballyglunin covers towns like Abbeyknockmoy as well and they all go to school in Athenry... Athenry's catchment area for secondary schools is well over 10 miles. It has three secondary schools and one of them is a Coláiste so the reach is pretty big as there's no Coláiste in Oranmore, Claregalway etc. That's why a lot of the students arriving to Athenry at 9:05am are for the 'all Irish' Secondary School.

Greaney wrote: »

I've personally talked to the folk in Ballyglunin in one of their station events. They'd all like the rail. They're under no illusion to the tourism draw of their wee station that they love and have put a lot of work in to.

Their children would go to secondary school in either Tuam or Athenry (mostly Athenry). Depending on timetables, that will determine their school choice if rail comes.

There are also young people in the area who go on to college. They cannot afford the Galway rents so some of the young people rent in Athenry and then get the train to town to go to college. The cost of going to college would be significantly lower if they had rail. Running a car into the city, and paying for parking would still be huge for a student. An annual ticket for a worker in Athenry commuting to Galway is less than €1.4K a year. (Irish Rail reduced the student tickets to match that I believe, because student use shot up a couple of years back). This isn't a train business, it's a train service so it can't be way out of students reach.

Ballyglunin covers towns like Abbeyknockmoy as well and they all go to school in Athenry... Athenry's catchment area for secondary schools is well over 10 miles. It has three secondary schools and one of them is a Coláiste so the reach is pretty big as there's no Coláiste in Oranmore, Claregalway etc. That's why a lot of the students arriving to Athenry at 9:05am are for the 'all Irish' Secondary School.

Nope. You didn't give a straight answer. Ballyglunin train loving folk (lots of greenway advocates there too and I've personally talk to them) and commuting to Galway are not what I asked you. But you know that.

Sligo eye

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

What’s that Skippy? The sound of a barrel being scraped? *Kangaroo tuts excitedly*

“What’s that Skip? The greenway campaigners are stuck in a hole of their own making? Shall we rescue them Skip?”

*kangaroo makes tutting noise*

“Okay Skip, I agree, those beers are chilled nicely now and those steaks are just about done on the Barbie...”