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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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the_syco

nigeldaniel wrote: »

Well if they clamped down on expenses I would not see a need for pay cuts.

Lets cut the dole for anyone on it for more than ten years.

ninebeanrows

Micheal Martin first big announcement as Taoiseach will be a 20% PS paycut

Hotblack Desiato

mickuhaha wrote: »

@daithi7

I don't think you get it. The average wage surpassed the highest average wage during the Celtic tiger in 2014 and has been above that since.

Cost of living, too - especially for those paying rent.

But that's the fault of the private sector.

Treppen

daithi7 wrote: »

Absenteeism among ps workers is higher than the private sector. Hours worked per week are significantly lower. Sick leave is far higher and annual leave is also.

It's fine to moan about perceptions of PS workers, and of course there are huge cohorts of the PS that are undoubtedly very hard working , but nonetheless overall by most productivity measures they trail the private sector by some margin.

Have you a source for all that rant

Treppen

daithi7 wrote: »

You mean "Pay restoration" back up to the unsustainable Celtic Tiger levels is it? The ones that could only be funded by one off, unsustainable, property taxes.... tell me, how did that work out again?!?

P.s. isn't it curious that we're being strong armed into 'restoring' PS pay (i.e. increasing it to previously unsustainable levels), while income taxes have not nearly been restored back down to Celtic Tiger levels (e.g. we're stuck with USC, & higher levels of income tax, etc).

So one group of workers are quite clearly receiving preferential treatment, to the cost of others, that's unfair .......

If that's the only dichotomy you see then you're very bitter.
BTW public sector workers also help keep private sector in employment.
If you cut public sector workers wages to just low discretionary spending level who do you think will be hit hardest?
By all the money being saved by cuts, you actually think the government are going to start giving tlservice industry workers, builders, car sales employees etc. free money?
If there's none there to buy their services then they loose even more.

daithi7

never_mind wrote: »

I love the general discourse that PS workers are lazy, inefficient paper-pushers in this thread.

Public service workers include doctors, judges, firemen, teachers, lecturers, guards etc. Not all PS workers are admin workers and those that are are doing a service to the state (revenue, social protection, county councils etc.). I thought covid would have given people the opportunity to reflect on its importance and try to support not demonise it.

Absenteeism among ps workers is higher than the private sector. Hours worked per week are significantly lower. Sick leave is far higher and annual leave is also.

It's fine to moan about perceptions of PS workers, and of course there are huge cohorts of the PS that are undoubtedly very hard working , but nonetheless overall by most productivity measures they trail the private sector by some margin.

coolshannagh28

daithi7 wrote: »

Nope. The government have a clear choice each budget to either reduce (penal) taxes for all (which will also increase s take home pay) OR to just increase public sector pay. They have been opting to do solely do the latter robbing them the opportunity to do anything about the former. Therefore over taxed workers are effectively funding PS pay rises by not receiving their due tax reductions
I.e. their 'tax restoration' due.

That is effectively what is happening, to try to dress it up as anything else is just PS myopia imho.

Is there an argument to be made that politicians should be benchmarked in some way against the Private sector even if it meant paying them more as a means of evening up the imbalance in remuneration between the different sectors of the economy ?

kippy

daithi7 wrote: »

Nope. The government have a clear choice each budget to either reduce (penal) taxes for all (which will also increase s take home pay) OR to just increase public sector pay. They have been opting to do solely do the latter robbing them the opportunity to do anything about the former. Therefore over taxed workers are effectively funding PS pay rises by not receiving their due tax reductions
I.e. their 'tax restoration' due.

That is effectively what is happening, to try to dress it up as anything else is just PS myopia imho.

They've not "soley being doing the later".

daithi7

tayto lover wrote: »

The PS have been paying those taxes too as well as the pay cut. Double whammy.

Nope. The government have a clear choice each budget to either reduce (penal) income taxes for all (which will also increase ps take home pay btw), OR to increase public sector pay. They have been opting to solely do the latter, robbing them of the opportunity to do anything about the former. Therefore already over taxed paye workers are effectively funding PS pay rises, by not receiving their due share of tax reductions
I.e. their 'tax restoration' due.

That is effectively what is happening, to try to dress it up as anything else, is just PS myopia imho.

kippy

tayto lover wrote: »

The PS have been paying those taxes too as well as the pay cut. Double whammy.

Another poster who thinks the Public service dont pay income tax.
It's catching.

mickuhaha

@daithi7

I don't think you get it. The average wage surpassed the highest average wage during the Celtic tiger in 2014 and has been above that since. The unsustainable pay your talking about has been back for awhile at least in the private sector. The public service pay didn't directly increase during the Celtic tiger in line with the Private sector.

tayto lover

daithi7 wrote: »

You mean "Pay restoration" back up to the unsustainable Celtic Tiger levels is it? The ones that could only be funded by one off, unsustainable, property taxes.... tell me, how did that work out again?!?

P.s. isn't it curious that we're being strong armed into 'restoring' PS pay (i.e. increasing it to previously unsustainable levels), while income taxes have not nearly been restored back down to Celtic Tiger levels (e.g. we're stuck with USC, & higher levels of income tax, etc).

So one group of workers are quite clearly receiving preferential treatment, to the cost of others, that's unfair .......

The PS have been paying those taxes too as well as the pay cut. Double whammy.

daithi7

Treppen wrote: »

I don't know is there?.. although the question is incorrect for starters because there's no pay rise , it was pay restoration from pay withheld.

You mean "Pay restoration" back up to the unsustainable Celtic Tiger levels is it? The ones that could only be funded by one off, unsustainable, property taxes.... tell me, how did that work out again?!?

P.s. isn't it curious that we're being strong armed into 'restoring' PS pay (i.e. increasing it to previously unsustainable levels), while income taxes have not nearly been restored back down to Celtic Tiger levels (e.g. we're stuck with USC, & higher levels of income tax, etc).

So one group of workers are quite clearly receiving preferential treatment, to the cost of others, that's unfair .......

daithi7

JimmyVik wrote: »

Sometimes people just talk sh1t for the sake of arguing. You should see his posts in the Sweden covid thread about how Sweden are actually doing great with COVID. Totally off the wall

My posts on the covid thread say nothing of the sort.

I suggest you try to learn to read properly, and to try to comprehend better, before commenting on other's posts.

In the meantime YOU are the only one talking Sh1t for the sake of it!!

But that's what all you're good for, I guess....

[Deleted User]

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Oh ffs

AO starts just above the bottom of the EO scale
It finishes equal to the top of the HEO scale

HEO is the grade above EO

Comprenez?

You chose the ONLY grade in the civil service with a pay scale which spans the pay scales of two other grades, in order to cherry-pick some BS point about pay doubling (which even your own figures are nowhere near)

This is a grade for honours degree holders only and recruits in limited numbers, it is regarded as a fast track to promotion to AP so comparatively few AOs would get to the top of their scale without being promoted.

Another spoof.

Increments were postponed for most staff.

Many things including OAP were not cut.

Pensions were also cut with the introduction of PSPR.

Hotblack Desiato

never_mind wrote: »

I thought covid would have given people the opportunity to reflect on its importance and try to support not demonise it.

Well, that's what a decent person who wasn't cosumed by jealousy or hatred would do.

Hotblack Desiato

NovemberWren wrote: »

the Accountants of that 20%; are you so sure that the private sector are always solvent.

You are replying to a poster who seems to think that tax rises don't reduce public servants' take home pay.

JimmyVik

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/05/26/hanc-m26.html

Well, you do have the UK, where Boris Johnson is killing nurses faster than ever, but still refuses to increase their pay.

If that is what you want, you could move over there.

Sometimes people just talk sh1t for the sake of arguing. You should see his posts in the Sweden covid thread about how Sweden are actually doing great with COVID. Totally off the wall

NovemberWren

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

the Accountants of that 20%; are you so sure that the private sector are always solvent.

Treppen

daithi7 wrote: »

serious question for all you public sector union types:

Is there any other country in the world (OECD) giving an across the board pay rise of 2% or more to their public sector at this time???

I don't know is there?.. although the question is incorrect for starters because there's no pay rise , it was pay restoration from pay withheld.

[Deleted User]

Jim Root wrote: »

That’ll be a no then.

It may or may not be. I don't know the answer, why would you expect us to know the answer to that. If you are interested then google it.

blanch152

daithi7 wrote: »

serious question for all you public sector union types:

Is there any other country in the world (OECD) giving an across the board pay rise of 2% or more to their public sector at this time???

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/05/26/hanc-m26.html

Well, you do have the UK, where Boris Johnson is killing nurses faster than ever, but still refuses to increase their pay.

If that is what you want, you could move over there.

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

my response was a bit short in fairness.

these threads and phone posting have a way of doing that, so sorry if it came across too brusque

but i will restate that a public servant who moves up the increments does so under the terms and conditions under which they were offered and accepted the job.

it is fully correct and only correct to treat this one way- over time, you account for increments when comparing whether the person's pay has risen

ao pt 1 did not rise significantly over ten years. thats the valid comparison.

what happened a given ao, who was on pt 1 in 2010, is tbh irrelevant. many are ap or higher now. many are ao pt 7. many no doubt are private sector and earning buckets of cash. maybe some moved abroad and maybe some died.

if you were discussing say mechanical engineer's pay from 2010 through 2020 you wouldnt pick one and start pinning how he moved on himself in that time.

youd pick yr position, average starting or average with five years or whatever, in 2010 and youd use that plot point again for 2020

its not me playing any kind of silly buggers to point this out.

an ao pt 7 has progressed there on merit (and if you disagree that's another thread) and will be performing at a totally different level than one starting out.

if you total their pre fempi nominal earnings for that decade, they are *significantly* cumulatively worse off. this isnt fake accounting practice, this is the reality of how the cuts work.

i suspect we'll just have to disagree fundamentally if incremental progression is taken as individuals getting "pay rises"

Someone who actually understands public service pay.

Jim Root

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Google it.

That’ll be a no then.

never_mind

I love the general discourse that PS workers are lazy, inefficient paper-pushers in this thread.

Public service workers include doctors, judges, firemen, teachers, lecturers, guards etc. Not all PS workers are admin workers and those that are are doing a service to the state (revenue, social protection, county councils etc.). I thought covid would have given people the opportunity to reflect on its importance and try to support not demonise it.

GooglePlus

I've been in the civil service for 3 years now, starting as a CO and now an EO. Across all grades, I have seen nothing but people getting on with genuine interest in their work and a drive I hadn't seen before in the private sector. The offices we work in are old and outdated, as they wouldn't dare spend too much money on the building in case the public start barking but people still do their job well.

This digging at CS salaries and pensions by some is ridiculous but it's tale as old as time.

People just hate the thought of tax going towards public employment, as if the country would run itself without civil and public servants.

[Deleted User]

coherency is a lot to ask for in a crank, it seems

lads, ye outsource expertise in getting the best deal possible to several layers of negotiation and configuration over a lengthy and complex set of processes.

based on yer exhibited low tolerance for detail or conceptualisation of the sector in these threads, not too many of ye would get a seat at the table.

i wouldnt worry about it if i were ye. no doubt ye bring a lot to the table of whatever table ye do get to sit at, in the private sector, which must have ye well sorted by competence and performance by now.

no doubt.

Treppen

daithi7 wrote: »

Oh, do you mean the totally unsustainable pay levels of the Celtic Tiger era, that were all to be paid with one off property transaction taxes!?

How did that work out then!?

Where did you see that property transaction taxes were directly paying for public sector pay?

So how did the pay cuts to public service work out for you then?

daithi7

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not an increment, a partial restoration of pay cuts from over ten years ago

Oh, do you mean the totally unsustainable pay levels of the Celtic Tiger era, that were all to be paid with one off property transaction taxes!?

How did that work out then!?

Hotblack Desiato

daithi7 wrote: »

The latest one was 2%

Not an increment, a partial restoration of pay cuts from over ten years ago

You quite clearly do not have a clue about what you are ranting about.