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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RyanthePirate

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

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Marcos

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

Eoin O'Broin confidently stating that anker babies should be given give birthright citizenship and that we should remove the 27th Amendment as it is racist. This is simply wrong. Over 80% of the Irish Republic voted against this in '03. This shows utter contempt for democracy.

https://twitter.com/EOBroin/status/1273300365530869763

Actually it was 79% in 2004. But your point still stands. Looking at what he actually says in the first 30 seconds of that diatribe it's very telling.

Racism exists in Ireland, and to that extent it’s not a new problem . . . . and without a trace of irony the Irish lad says to the British lad why don’t you go back to where you came from? And in that one sentence it encapsulates the very heart of racism, that idea that somebody doesn’t belong.

I'm sure this king of thinking would have been welcomed by the London Livery Companies when they organised the plantation of Ulster. It’s a pity he couldn’t hop back in a time machine and go back and tell the native population that they were being racist and to correct their thinking. So is he retrospectively endorsing the plantation of Ulster? Is it Sinn Féinn policy now that the plantation was justified and hence any struggle against it was not? Including the troubles?

ELM327

Stateofyou wrote: »

White europeans and their 'anchor babies' dominating countries around the world... do you also care very deeply about that?

That doesnt exist beyond your head though.

2u2me

Wibbs wrote: »

Basically, if you think America is a great example of how multiculturalism works you're proving my point for me.

Nice little chinese finger logic trap you've set up for me. My ancestors helped create that thing so I'd say I'm more aware then most on here about how Chinese people have been persecuted throughout time. Still, can you point me to a town of Chinese people in America that just aren't fitting in?

But if you want to play this game of selectively quoting me and ignoring what I'm trying to say no problem.

Wibbs wrote: »

The darker the skin the more it kicks off

Correlation is not causation. That is rather flippant of you Wibbs. Do you have no understanding of history and culture?

There is no other place in the world that for so long said

"Give me your poor your huddled masses".

And they took them, and they integrated and they worked. Show me Irish slums in the US today that are not working, show me slums of Italians that don't fit into 'america'. Show me koreans and chinese shanty towns of people that just don't fit into the system. You're talking bollox here tbh. Over time they lose their 'irishness, 'italianness' 'japaneseness' 'chineseness' but people there have a hard time losing their 'blackness' for obvious reasons(history of slavery; jim crowe laws, culture of opposing white people, culture of not wanting to be 'uncle tom' very understandable)

America is the most powerful country ever seen in such a short space of time; this wasn't built on slavery. It was built on innovation and freedom. Hollywood, Spacecraft, Engineering, Science, Politics, Finance, Petro-dollar, pharmaceuticals, corporations, agricultural chemicals, nuclear tech, battery tech, Scientific endeavour- USA has been leading all of these fields for such a long time, do you forget from where these fruits came? Very few of these could be argued were 'built on slavery'; that is a farce. Of course it is how these things are used. Nuclear power can save our species but it can also destroy it.

My argument is that USA can only 'accept the poor and the huddled masses' as long as there is social mobility(which there doesn't seem to be anymore- this is what has changed). The ones that were already accepted have long ago fit in.

Stateofyou

Bambi wrote: »

Any bias based on skin colour or a bias towards hiring qualified candidates?

Cos the first one is illegal so...your point is?

My point is that just because something is illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Obviously. If no one ever did anything illegal, then why would we bother with employment law and redress rules. And everyone has bias and unconscious bias, so of course it happens. That's not even debatable.

"More than half of Irish employees believe their managers are biased in favour of people who look, think and act like them, a report on diversity in the workplace by recruitment giant Hays has found.
Its research found 55 per cent of staff believed employers, managers and senior figures in the workplace were afflicted with what is sometimes called “affinity bias”, whereby they show preferences to those junior colleagues or job candidates who most remind them of themselves."

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/affinity-bias-is-rife-in-irish-workplaces-say-employees-1.3646831

Stateofyou

ELM327 wrote: »

That doesnt exist beyond your head though.

History and facts don't interest you much I see. :pac:

Stateofyou

Bambi wrote: »

Any bias based on skin colour or a bias towards hiring qualified candidates?

Cos the first one is illegal so...your point is?

More to the point:

860,000 people experienced discrimination in Ireland – A CSO Report finds

According to the CSO, the highest rates of discrimination were reported by people who identify as LGBTQI+ (33.2%), followed by people from non-white ethnic backgrounds (33.1%), the unemployed (30.2%) and non-Irish (26.7%). Critically, almost 1 in 8 people reported experiencing discrimination when accessing services, while almost 1 in 10 reported discrimination in the workplace and/or looking for work.

Workplace Discrimination

Despite being against the law, workplace discrimination was experienced predominantly by unemployed persons, people from non-white ethnic backgrounds, persons who identify as LGBTQI+, non-Irish and persons with a disability (Table 1).
:pac:
https://www.socialjustice.ie/content/policy-issues/860000-people-experienced-discrimination-ireland-cso-report-finds

ELM327

Stateofyou wrote: »

History and facts don't interest you much I see. :pac:

Oh they do, but invented nonsense doesnt.

Stateofyou

Bambi wrote: »

Any bias based on skin colour or a bias towards hiring qualified candidates?

Cos the first one is illegal so...your point is?

One more:

BLACK NON-IRISH people are five times more likely to experience discrimination when seeking employment in Ireland when compared to white Irish people.
Black non-Irish people are also over two and a half times more likely to experience discrimination when in employment when compared to white Irish people, new research has found.

A study entitled Ethnicity and Nationality in the Irish Labour Market looks at Central Statistics Office data from the Quarterly National Household Survey Equality Modules from 2004, 2010 and 2014 to capture how labour market outcomes and the experience of discrimination have changed through the economic boom, recession and early recovery.

https://www.thejournal.ie/race-discrimination-employment-ireland-4400326-Dec2018/

Dyr

Stateofyou wrote: »

My point is that just because something is illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Obviously. If no one ever did anything illegal, then why would we bother with employment law and redress rules. And everyone has bias and unconscious bias, so of course it happens. That's not even debatable.

"More than half of Irish employees believe their managers are biased in favour of people who look, think and act like them, a report on diversity in the workplace by recruitment giant Hays has found.
Its research found 55 per cent of staff believed employers, managers and senior figures in the workplace were afflicted with what is sometimes called “affinity bias”, whereby they show preferences to those junior colleagues or job candidates who most remind them of themselves."

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/affinity-bias-is-rife-in-irish-workplaces-say-employees-1.3646831

That's great, a survey of 850 employees by a recruitment agency.

Stateofyou

Bambi wrote: »

That's great, a survey of 850 employees by a recruitment agency.

Do you understand sampling data and what that represents? What do you want, a survey of each and every employer in Ireland? If you want a larger sample, see the report I posted from the CSO that showed 860,000 people experienced discrimination in Ireland.

Dyr

Stateofyou wrote: »

y.

https://www.thejournal.ie/race-discrimination-employment-ireland-4400326-Dec2018/

There's your main author of that report, TCD Sociology Professor who specialises in immigration. Another campainer on the tax payers tit

TuringBot47

Stateofyou wrote: »

BLACK NON-IRISH people are five times more likely to experience discrimination when seeking employment in Ireland when compared to white Irish people.
Black non-Irish people are also over two and a half times more likely to experience discrimination when in employment when compared to white Irish people, new research has found.

"New Research" ?

If I didn't get a job, I'd be looking at mistakes I made in the interview process, skills I didn't have, experience in technologies I don't have etc. I wouldn't be crying racism.

On the other hand, there's certain roles that require excellent communication and people skills. I've worked with a lot of nationalities and some tend to excel at English better than others. It's not racism, sometimes it's a culture fit, extroversion, maturity, life experience etc.

DelaneyIn

Stateofyou wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Question, regarding the low rates of employment of African nationals. Do you think there is any bias here in Ireland in our hiring processes?

Why are we allowing in so many Africans, the majority of whom end up living off of welfare, if they don’t have work permits? As far as I was aware, non EU nationals had to have work permits to settle in Ireland.

iebamm2580

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/jail-term-for-mallow-teen-who-repeatedly-slashed-victim-with-stanley-knife-1006034.html

Another lenient sentence.

Stateofyou

TuringBot47 wrote: »

"New Research" ?

If I didn't get a job, I'd be looking at mistakes I made in the interview process, skills I didn't have, experience in technologies I don't have etc. I wouldn't be crying racism.

On the other hand, there's certain roles that require excellent communication and people skills. I've worked with a lot of nationalities and some tend to excel at English better than others. It's not racism, sometimes it's a culture fit, extroversion, maturity, life experience etc.

Are you white and living in Ireland? So why would you be "crying racism" if so.

Some instances it's due to the skill set, obviously. But also obviously, discrimination and bias in the hiring process is real.

Stateofyou

DelaneyIn wrote: »

Why are we allowing in so many Africans, the majority of whom end up living off of welfare, if they don’t have work permits? As far as I was aware, non EU nationals had to have work permits to settle in Ireland.

Are they refugees??

Kivaro

Bambi wrote: »

There's your main author of that report, TCD Sociology Professor who specialises in immigration. Another campainer on the tax payers tit

One will find that a lot of "academics", who would have great difficulty surviving in the real (competitive) world, are receiving funds for these types of reports from sources who require a partial view on the topic of migration.
We see a lot of reports trotted out on threads like this that support the notion of the net benefit of economic migration. One report that stands out recently was the number of economic migrants/asylum seekers coming from Africa who had college degrees. When this report was dissected, it was found that the number that the researcher declared in the report was self-declared by the migrants themselves ....... without further proof that they did indeed have college degrees. The report concluded that asylum seekers were better educated than the native Irish, which was utter nonsense. This was then used to declare that it was racial reasons why Africans were so underemployed in Ireland, or in other words, Irish employers were racist.

So be careful of these reports from Irish academics; especially those whose funding depends on the conclusion being skewed in a particular liberal light.

[Deleted User]

RyanthePirate wrote: »

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Norway is about same population as Ireland and
Surveys done in Norway shows that each immigrant cost 4.1 million NOK=383000 euro in todays exchange rate trough their lifetime.

Finansavisen of 13 April, with the approval of Statistics Norway researcher Erling Holmøy, that every non-western immigrant costs Norway around NOK 4.1 million on average during their lifetime

https://www.ssb.no/en/offentlig-sektor/artikler-og-publikasjoner/the-effects-of-more-immigrants-on-public-finances

Immigrants are also overrepresented when it comes to welfare problems.

There is a vast literature demonstrating that welfare problems do cluster (Bask 2005, 2010, 2016; Berthoud et al. 2004; Bradshaw & Finch 2003; Fløtten 2005; Halleröd & Heikkilä 1999; Kangas & Ritakallio 1998). However, few studies have focused specifically on migrants.
Barstad (2016) found in his study based on EU-SILC 2013 that immigrants in Norway originating from Africa, Asia and Latin America and Eastern Europe accumulated more welfare problems than native-born Norwegians or migrants with Nordic or West European backgrounds.

The survey covers some of the largest immigrant groups in Norway: from Afghanistan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Eritrea, Iran, Iraq, Kosovo, Pakistan, Poland, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Turkey and Vietnam.

Because the sample is stratified by country of origin, a weight has been calculated to correct for non-response within groups, and simultaneously to adjust for the true size of the groups in Norway at the time of sampling in 2015 (Holmøy and Wiggen 2017). This means that some of the country groups in this survey in reality are much smaller than others. When calculating averages for the total sample, we want the larger groups in the sample frame to account for their relative size, compared with the smaller groups.

Afghanistan - Three out of four immigrants from Afghanistan have come to Norway as refugees; the other 25% arrived through family reunification. Afghans are overrepresented in single households, and are younger than most immigrant groups in this survey. The employment rate is 62%, not the lowest and not the highest among the Asian countries.

Bosnia-Herzegovina - Most immigrants from Bosnia-Herzegovina were refugees who arrived in the mid-1990s. Median years of residence is 20 years. Labour market participation is relatively high, among both men and women. Many own their own home, and they tend to live spread all over the country. They have lower median income than the total population, but the highest among the immigrant groups in this survey (Dzarmarjia 2016)
.
Eritrea - The majority (83%) of immigrants with background from Eritrea have arrived as
refugees. They have a short median stay of in Norway, 4 years. Only 49% are employed – the second lowest employment rate among the 12 countries surveyed. They live both in densely and less densely populated areas in Norway.

Iran – Two-thirds have arrived as refugees. Median years of residence is 16 years, but there is great variation here. Despite high educational levels, employment is relatively low, similar to that for Afghans, 62%, but it is relatively high (71%) among the core working-age group, 25–44 years.

Iraq – 55% of Iraqi immigrants have arrived as refugees, and 44% through family reunification. Median duration of stay is 13 years. In contrast to Bosnians, who came mainly between 1993 and 1995, Iraqis have arrived over a longer time span; also today there are Iraqis arriving in Norway as refugees or through family reunification. A relatively low share (53%) are employed.

Kosovo - The majority (71%) have arrived as refugees. Median length of stay is 15 years. Their employment rate is similar to that for Afghans and Iranians, 63%, but is higher among the age group 25–44 years. As is the case with Sri Lanka, Pakistan and Turkey, most households are couples with children under 19 years of age.

Pakistan - Three out of four with a background from Pakistan have arrived through family reunification. Many have stayed in Norway for more than 20 years. In all age groups, the employment rate is lower than among the total population, and there is a significant gender gap in employment between men and women.

Poland - Immigrants from Poland constitute the largest immigrant group in Norway. Three out of four are labour migrants. Median years of residence for Polish immigrants is 5 years. Poles are the immigrant group with the highest share of people living in sparsely populated areas. Their
employment level is high, even higher than among native-born Norwegians.

Somalia - Somalia is the largest African immigrant group in Norway. 68% have arrived as refugees, and 30% through family reunification. Median length of residence is 9 years. Somalis have the lowest employment rate among the immigrant groups in this survey, and median income of Somalis is half that of the total population.

Sri Lanka – 14% have arrived on student permits, 38% as refugees and 45% are family class migrants. More than 70% live in densely populated (urban) areas. More than three out of four own their own flat – this share is higher than the average in the total population. Some 74% are employed; this is higher than the average among immigrants, but lower than in the total population.

Turkey - 82% of migrants from Turkey have arrived through family migration. Median length of
residence in Norway is 19 years. Employment level is relatively low (56%), in particular among those over 45 years of age (41%). On many variables, Turkey ranks in the middle among the 12 countries in this survey.

Vietnam - Approximately half of the immigrants from Vietnam arrived as refugees in the early 1980s. After the initial humanitarian migration from Vietnam, recent migration to Norway has been family reunification. Many Vietnamese immigrants have lived in Norway for more than 20 years, and more than 70% speak Norwegian at home.
(Source: Vrålstad & Wiggen 2017)

The report has identified welfare problems related to work, housing, income, neighbourhood, social isolation, poor health and mental health problems. It has analysed the most common problems regarding living conditions among immigrants, and the extent to which welfare problems accumulate in certain groups of immigrants.
Immigrants are almost twice as likely to experience major accumulation of welfare problems (> 3 living conditions) compared to the entire population.
Among immigrant women, one in four (27%) has more than three living-condition problems, as against one in five (20%) immigrant men.
Immigrants experience more welfare problems, and in other domains, than the total population. Immigrants experience far more problems related to housing and low labour market attachment compared to the population in general. Among the entire population, health and neighbourhood problems are the most frequent welfare problems reported

https://kriminalitetsforebygging.no/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/accumulation-of-welfare-problems-among-immigrants-in-norway.pdf

Stateofyou

Kivaro wrote: »

One will find that a lot of "academics", who would have great difficulty surviving in the real (competitive) world, are receiving funds for these types of reports from sources who require a partial view on the topic of migration.
We see a lot of reports trotted out on threads like this that support the notion of the net benefit of economic migration. One report that stands out recently was the number of economic migrants/asylum seekers coming from Africa who had college degrees. When this report was dissected, it was found that the number that the researcher declared in the report was self-declared by the migrants themselves ....... without further proof that they did indeed have college degrees. The report concluded that asylum seekers were better educated than the native Irish, which was utter nonsense. This was then used to declare that it was racial reasons why Africans were so underemployed in Ireland, or in other words, Irish employers were racist.

So be careful of these reports from Irish academics; especially those whose funding depends on the conclusion being skewed in a particular liberal light.

And the Chief Commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, using data from the CSO, is in on it too?

"Emily Logan, Chief Commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, said access to and use of good quality data and empirical research are “of crucial importance in identifying the barriers to the full enjoyment of human rights and equality that persist in our society, as well as the people whom these barriers most affect”.
“The much higher rates of labour market discrimination experienced by some ethnic groups highlights the need for employers to proactively work to ensure diversity in the workplace and to avoid incidences of discrimination in recruitment.”

Tony EH

Immigration is fine.

Multiculturalism is not something that can work though, and I've yet to see anywhere that it has. Even the melting pot of America is a largely failed attempt.

When you choose to move to another country, you are moving to a place that already has a culture of its own. It shouldn't be expected to change things just so you can feel that your back in your home town.

As a concept, multiculturalism sounds like a noble thing to try and achieve. But in practice, it hasn't worked and I don't think it ever will.

Besides, what's wrong with moving to another country and, you know, integrating?

Kivaro

Deleted User wrote: »

Norway is about same population as Ireland and
Surveys done in Norway shows that each immigrant cost 4.1 million NOK=383000 euro in todays exchange rate trough their lifetime.

Finansavisen of 13 April, with the approval of Statistics Norway researcher Erling Holmøy, that every non-western immigrant costs Norway around NOK 4.1 million on average during their lifetime

https://www.ssb.no/en/offentlig-sektor/artikler-og-publikasjoner/the-effects-of-more-immigrants-on-public-finances

Immigrants are also overrepresented when it comes to welfare problems.
.....

Wonder would Ireland ever conduct a similar survey broken down by migrant country of origin?
I doubt it, but it would probably have similar results i.e. very low levels of employment rates for African migrants, but high numbers for the likes of Polish migrants.
In the survey above, the Poles had even higher employment rates than among native-born Norwegians. Which doesn't surprise me at all.

Even by using rudimentary information that we have in Ireland about migrant employment, it seems that we have a similar situation to Norway. Go figure.

double jobbing

Stateofyou wrote: »

And the Chief Commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, using data from the CSO, is in on it too?

"Emily Logan, Chief Commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, said access to and use of good quality data and empirical research are “of crucial importance in identifying the barriers to the full enjoyment of human rights and equality that persist in our society, as well as the people whom these barriers most affect”.
“The much higher rates of labour market discrimination experienced by some ethnic groups highlights the need for employers to proactively work to ensure diversity in the workplace and to avoid incidences of discrimination in recruitment.”

Emily Logan is a waster with a degree who uses her taxpayer funded position to advocate for less educated fellow wasters.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/human-rights-challenge-issued-to-social-housing-policy-for-non-irish-f6vhfnr20

Tony EH

biko wrote: »

OP is right that immigration has a positive effect on the economy.
There are thousands of people here that work for Irish, British or US companies.
"Immigration" itself isn't bad.

A country, however, is not an "economy". We really, really, need to get away from this idea that the economy is above all else. It's an incredibly reductive notion.

ExMachina1000

I don't think its great for a country overall. Leads to segregation and division. I am also aware that I have no control over what happens so at the back of it all I kind of hope that it does go wrong and those who supported it will be the ones who suffer from crime or violence etc
Its their fault in the first place. The piper must be paid

Other than that I don't really care

FVP3

Stateofyou wrote: »

Are you white and living in Ireland? So why would you be "crying racism" if so.

Some instances it's due to the skill set, obviously. But also obviously, discrimination and bias in the hiring process is real.

I would say that you have more chance of being employed in Facebook and many of the other multinationals if you are not Irish. Of course that may be, and probably is, on merit, but it argues against a bias in favour of the Irish ( or indeed the "white" Irish) in significant parts of private industry. And those surveys do have reports of Irish people feeling discriminated against.

Where there is a bias of course -- law, RTE, journalism -- the bias is also against most of the rest of us.

Yurt2

2u2me wrote: »

Show me koreans and chinese shanty towns of people that just don't fit into the system.
.

They're far from shanty towns, but from places I've been, Koreatown in LA and Chinatown in Flushing NY are places where you'd be better served speaking Korean and Mandarin respectively. A significant amount of fresh of the boats there have either limited to no English and don't have an incentive to learn such is the monoculture in both areas.

If that's desirable or not for the host country or not, should really be up to the society. I'm not sure I'd be encouraging such enclaves in Ireland no matter how nice the Kim or Zhang families are. I'd much rather we'd have a model of immigration where people land legally, stay legally and become part of the fabric rapidly as opposed to forming large ethnic blocks and parallel societies. The Korean community in LA in particular grew really rapidly to the exclusion of other ethnies and ran into bitter conflicts with the black and Hispanic communities in central LA. Those wounds haven't healed even to this day.

Both of the above immigrant communities (Korean and Chinese) generally tend to have high levels of community organisation, family cohesion, low reliance on welfare, high levels of educational attainment in the 2nd generation and low levels of interaction with the police, so for the most part stay under the radar.

That's not true if many immigrant groups, and we can see examples or South Asian communities in the UK that really haven't got with the programme and even on the 2nd and 3rd generation.

Rapid and uncontrolled immigration is not all peaches and rainbows no matter how much you paint it to be.

Dyr

Yurt! wrote: »

The Korean community in LA in particular grew really rapidly to the exclusion of other ethnies and ran into bitter conflicts with the black and Hispanic communities in central LA. Those wounds haven't healed even to this day.

The wounds the Koreans caused by having the temerity defend their stores from Black looters?

Damn racist Koreans :mad:

[Deleted User]

Yurt! wrote: »

They're far from shanty towns, but from places I've been, Koreatown in LA and Chinatown in Flushing NY are places where you'd be better served speaking Korean and Mandarin respectively. A significant amount of fresh of the boats there have either limited to no English and don't have an incentive to learn such is the monoculture in both areas.

If that's desirable or not for the host country or not, should really be up to the society. I'm not sure I'd be encouraging such enclaves in Ireland no matter how nice the Kim or Zhang families are. I'd much rather we'd have a model of immigration where people land legally, stay legally and become part of the fabric rapidly as opposed to forming large ethnic blocks and parallel societies. The Korean community in LA in particular grew really rapidly to the exclusion of other ethnies and ran into bitter conflicts with the black and Hispanic communities in central LA. Those wounds haven't healed even to this day.

Both of the above immigrant communities (Korean and Chinese) generally tend to have high levels of community organisation, family cohesion, low reliance on welfare, high levels of educational attainment in the 2nd generation and low levels of interaction with the police, so for the most part stay under the radar.

That's not true if many immigrant groups, and we can see examples or South Asian communities in the UK that really haven't got with the programme and even on the 2nd and 3rd generation.

Rapid and uncontrolled immigration is not all peaches and rainbows no matter how much you paint it to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEv8CNS-55M

I remember from the 92 riots in LA the roof koreans,they seemed pretty well organised.

Yurt2

Bambi wrote: »

The wounds the Koreans caused by having the temerity defend their stores from Black looters?

Damn racist Koreans :mad:

Know your history of the riots. A Korean store owner shot a black kid in the back when she thought the kid was shoplifting preceding the riots and was acquitted.

Edit: was convicted of manslaughter but served no time

Sand

Tony EH wrote: »

Immigration is fine.

Multiculturalism is not something that can work though, and I've yet to see anywhere that it has. Even the melting pot of America is a largely failed attempt.

When you choose to move to another country, you are moving to a place that already has a culture of its own. It shouldn't be expected to change things just so you can feel that your back in your home town.

As a concept, multiculturalism sounds like a noble thing to try and achieve. But in practice, it hasn't worked and I don't think it ever will.

Besides, what's wrong with moving to another country and, you know, integrating?

There is a problem with the ideology that mass migration would be fine if they integrated. It ignores the reality that Africans, Asians and Amerindians cannot 'integrate' with a European culture anymore than Europeans were able to integrate with African, Asian and Amerindian cultures. Irish is a European ethnicity, not an African one, not an Asian one and not an Amerindian one. Demanding these people integrate with Irish people, which they cannot do, is setting them up to fail. And as we increasingly see in the US and Western Europe its seen as unacceptable to expect the immigrant communities to 'integrate'. Instead, increasingly it is the indigenous people which must make the effort, diluting their own identity to nothing more than a passport and set of dubious values. And why would anyone integrate with something so pathetic?

Mass migration creates the conditions for multi-ethnic states, which throughout history breakdown and fall into chaos until mono-ethnic nation states take their place. We're seeing this play out now in the US, the UK and France. 50-60 years ago, those people were told similar lies that the newcomers would integrate. Look and learn. Legal or illegal, mass migration is not fine.

Mass migration is a terrible policy and it needs to be ended. How did such a policy arise in Ireland without anyone ever voting for it and being so wholly against the interests of Irish people? You'd have to ask Alan Shatter about that.