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The Links Thread

FixdePitchmark

So - how about a thread about Links Golf.

I know many will say - but it fits into other threads.

But (IMO) - it doesn't in many ways.
Be it , the best deals to play the classics,
the 8 iron from 90 yards.

I think we need our own thread (A Links Golf Thread) - (This is not an Epic Thread)

There is a small bunch of golfers here, that are in this links space. I hope we can build it into a group that play the big ones in Ireland and UK.

Let's face it, running around under pine trees and taking your ball out of a pitch mark is not every-bodies cup of tea.

So , be it, The Hillary Society ,links grass types, or whatever ?

this is The Links thread.

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Comments

Ally McIntosh

thewobbler wrote: »

I would think a few people on this thread have developed their own personal preference flavour of why the GUI exists, and why clubs choose to be affiliated. And it’s not quite grounded in reality.

I’m very happy to be corrected here, but the role of a golfing union is to:

- facilitate and administer competitions between clubs and individuals.

- provide, monitor and arbitrate a mechanism whereby competition between members is judged to be fair by all who compete (handicapping).

- represent and promote the interests of its members on the international stage.

Open competitions are only a byproduct of the GUI’s function. As the handicapping element of the GUI‘S function effectively allows any club to administer competitive intra-club golf with little-to-no effort, it provides them with an opportunity to market their course, to a clearly defined and often captive audience, on occasions when the timesheet might be at a lull.

Which, fundamentally means that clubs without other means of filling their timesheets (from members, tourists, or societies) are naturally going to run more open competitions than other clubs.... and that clubs which do not need to market, will not bother.

I would encourage anyone who wish to use words like the need for reciprocity when discussing open competitions, to take a step back, and consider that even if you really really really want this to be the case, it isn’t so.

This explains the situation well.

In addition, consider what each individual pays the GUI for membership yearly? Around €24 if I recall correctly. For a token sum like that, reciprocal playing rights at 400 other clubs should certainly not be a given.

As I stated elsewhere, if prestige clubs are to give “something” back, I believe it more valuable for them to occasionally open their course to the local village / town or to deserving charities.

thewobbler

I would think a few people on this thread have developed their own personal preference flavour of why the GUI exists, and why clubs choose to be affiliated. And it’s not quite grounded in reality.

I’m very happy to be corrected here, but the role of a golfing union is to:

- facilitate and administer competitions between clubs and individuals.

- provide, monitor and arbitrate a mechanism whereby competition between members is judged to be fair by all who compete (handicapping).

- represent and promote the interests of its members on the international stage.

Open competitions are only a byproduct of the GUI’s function. As the handicapping element of the GUI‘S function effectively allows any club to administer competitive intra-club golf with little-to-no effort, it provides them with an opportunity to market their course, to a clearly defined and often captive audience, on occasions when the timesheet might be at a lull.

Which, fundamentally means that clubs without other means of filling their timesheets (from members, tourists, or societies) are naturally going to run more open competitions than other clubs.... and that clubs which do not need to market, will not bother.

I would encourage anyone who wish to use words like the need for reciprocity when discussing open competitions, to take a step back, and consider that even if you really really really want this to be the case, it isn’t so.

Sultan_of_Ping

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I think I posted in the other thread 100 euro. It feels - not cheap , but just right on the higher side.

I think that is fair for all parties. And , I suppose that is the sort of figure coming back from the clubs that have done it - 140 is a serious push. You are still going to travel 4/5 hours - stay over - eat - a few pints - buy something , you will drop well over 300 euro on trip. How many of them can someone do in a year - 3 at a push.

Also - 100 euro and less is what you get them for in classics.

I suppose a formal GUI rate would remove all this daft chasing , and trying to get a contact and trying to play a 6 hour round in a classic versus lads from Tipperary having 110 points, your team 93 pts on the round of their life.

I probably know over 200 people who play golf - lads going off to play these courses , are a small niche within that golf community. Boards here is not a good sample of average golfers - we are golf nuts.

This summer is an odd ball one - and I'm delighted, but pissed off too. It should be like this all the time , not just because the yanks haven't come in. It is a bit, Let them eat cake.

To be honest - there are a few I wouldn't mind being sweated a bit more.

A strange attitude to some here , how dare you peasants even consider coming in at a reduced rate. We only do the elite here and wouldn't lower ourselves to an Irish rate.

€100 - is a serious green fee. It isn't going to bring buses of the unwashed in , who will rip the place apart and ruin the fake atmosphere for the absent yanks.

They are all GUI clubs and all get significant tax breaks from the Irish Revenue.

Pretty much agree with the sentiments expressed above.

Can't honestly say I'm too worried about these "prestige" clubs suffering because they can't command three figure green fees, or if their financial projections have been blown out of the water by what's happened.

A lot of these places don't really buy into the reciprocity of golf - they expect their members to be able to avail of their GUI privileges at other courses but then price out locals or golfers from other GUI-affiliated clubs, or simply don't run open competitions or scratch cups to allow golfers the opportunitiy to play at their facilities at a reasonable cost (as in a cost that's objectively reasonable, not a cost that's reasonable relative to their normal green fee).

It's their course, their club and their business (and it's obviously up to others if they want to take advantage of any "discounts" currently offered) but my preference would be for clubs that are genuinely welcoming of visitors, not just ones looking to make a quick buck from the schmucks with their noses pressed up against the glass.

thewobbler

bmay529 wrote: »

It is interesting to speak to elder Irish golfers who remind us that a lot of those courses forget that it was GUI members (paying unbelievably modest rates) that helped many of those very remote courses survive in the early days and helped develop their reputation.

I’m expecting that same elder gentlemen would try to convince you that scratch golfers from 1950 were more skilled golfers than anyone playing today. Like somehow golf flies in the face of evolution.

Not trying to be contrarian, but there’s always a rough of nostalgia for the olden days. I suffer from it myself.

——

Either way, their small visitor fees 40 years ago were not to visit the same thing. The land might have been roughly the same, but the conditioning and attention to detail would have been distant cousins.

bmay529

Correct me if I am wrong but in my experience most of the premier courses frequented by Americans/Japanese golfers such as Ballybunion, Tralee, Lahinch, Waterville, etc usually have a very full timesheet in summer and in a lot of cases players that could be catagorised as occasional golfer at best but have deep pockets. So good luck to those golf courses who can dictate their rate but that is unlikely to be the case for the next year or two.

I understand the concept of higher green fees leading to reduced usage mentioned earlier and therefor reduced wear and tear on a course but it would seem to me if courses are full during the summer that logic is not normally applied... the Dollar is all powerful.

Lahinch are offering a greenfee of €150 from late August and there are stay/play rates to be had for Ballybunion from €250.

I for one, with a number of friends, would be interest in arranging a few stay/play trips to west coast links this summer if the rates were "reasonable", say within the magical €100 green fee rate. While some courses have a very healthy Balance sheet a €400 line may not be as good as a €1,000 line but to many is an awful lot better than 0 and can still contribute well to the bottom line at year end.

It is interesting to speak to elder Irish golfers who remind us that a lot of those courses forget that it was GUI members (paying unbelievably modest rates) that helped many of those very remote courses survive in the early days and helped develop their reputation.

Raisins

slave1 wrote: »

.

The proper comparison is what can a local resident play a local course at inclusive of local resident rate versus an Irish local resident e.g. GUI rate.
But even then you still have one countries economy versus another.
There's no perfect way of doing this...

I completely agree there’s no perfect comparison. I meant Bandon Dunes or Pebble are fair in terms of quality though and they’re not 50 - 100. There’s surely no way every member of ncga gets pebble in August for €100. What’s being discussed is the covid rack rate in July / August. Winter rates are not what’s being debated I don’t think.

I don’t think having a GUI card entitles a golfer to be treated like a local and that might be the crux of the argument. Peoples opinions differ on how meaningful being in the GUI is when it comes to greenfees. An “Irish local resident” of Waterville lives down there. They’re not a GUI member from Dublin or Galway but I respect there’s a difference of opinion on that.

Benicetomonty

davegilly wrote: »

No, not every hour. In Ballybunion members times are extremely limited during the week on the Old course. The visitors have most of the times in the morning and early afternoon. Members have Sat and Sun morning for comps. The rest of the day is visitors again.

The thing to remember though is there is a second course, the cashen, where members can play pretty much when they want so if you dont get out on the old you always have option B. The annual sub for two championship courses, one of which is probably top 20 in the world is approx €500! Not bad eh! However it will mean dipping into the war chest this year without the yankee dollar to fall back on.

Ballybunion have always been good for putting on yearly opens, including snr, jnr and intermediate scratch cups. Fabulous place, membership and golf course, have been lucky enough to play both tracks many times. They seem to have a very different attitude in respect of incentivising domestic players to visit when compared to Lahinch, Waterville, Portmarnock etc.

Discounting the significance of Old Head's practically unprecedented decision to host open competitions is burying one's head in the sand dunes as to how badly remote links courses will be financially affected this summer. Places that dont follow suit will feel it to some extent, whether it's this year or next.

davegilly

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Is it every hour of every day.

No, not every hour. In Ballybunion members times are extremely limited during the week on the Old course. The visitors have most of the times in the morning and early afternoon. Members have Sat and Sun morning for comps. The rest of the day is visitors again.

The thing to remember though is there is a second course, the cashen, where members can play pretty much when they want so if you dont get out on the old you always have option B. The annual sub for two championship courses, one of which is probably top 20 in the world is approx €500! Not bad eh! However it will mean dipping into the war chest this year without the yankee dollar to fall back on.

FixdePitchmark

davegilly wrote: »

Money reserves or not - the likes of Ballybunion, Tralee, Waterville etc are losing monstrosities of money this year. Absolute monstrosities.

The Yank 4 ball every 10 minutes at a grand a pop is gone. Thats €6K every hour of every day from May to Sept. Gone.

Is it every hour of every day ?

Can't be, as members would have no tee times.

Anyway - what do the do with the money - serious question. If it is as you describe , they are bringing in 4/5 times what it take to operate a golf club - no matter how you operate it.

davegilly

Money reserves or not - the likes of Ballybunion, Tralee, Waterville etc are losing monstrosities of money this year. Absolute monstrosities.

The Yank 4 ball every 10 minutes at a grand a pop is gone. Thats €6K every hour of every day from May to Sept. Gone.

FixdePitchmark

I think I posted in the other thread 100 euro. It feels - not cheap , but just right on the higher side.

I think that is fair for all parties. And , I suppose that is the sort of figure coming back from the clubs that have done it - 140 is a serious push. You are still going to travel 4/5 hours - stay over - eat - a few pints - buy something , you will drop well over 300 euro on trip. How many of them can someone do in a year - 3 at a push.

Also - 100 euro and less is what you get them for in classics.

I suppose a formal GUI rate would remove all this daft chasing , and trying to get a contact and trying to play a 6 hour round in a classic versus lads from Tipperary having 110 points, your team 93 pts on the round of their life.

I probably know over 200 people who play golf - lads going off to play these courses , are a small niche within that golf community. Boards here is not a good sample of average golfers - we are golf nuts.

This summer is an odd ball one - and I'm delighted, but pissed off too. It should be like this all the time , not just because the yanks haven't come in. It is a bit, Let them eat cake.

To be honest - there are a few I wouldn't mind being sweated a bit more.

A strange attitude to some here , how dare you peasants even consider coming in at a reduced rate. We only do the elite here and wouldn't lower ourselves to an Irish rate.

€100 - is a serious green fee. It isn't going to bring buses of the unwashed in , who will rip the place apart and ruin the fake atmosphere for the absent yanks.

They are all GUI clubs and all get significant tax breaks from the Irish Revenue.

rooney30

These pandemic rates seem reasonable to me . These courses have been heavily discounted . I get it if guys wouldn’t pay over 100 euro to play any course , that’s their choice , it’s not your god given right to do so . There’s plenty that will .
Reminds me a bit when the housing market tanked 50% , with guys at the bottom of the market , feeling it was their right to get a further 20% discount to what they themselves believed a house to be worth

thewobbler

Again, until those who bemoan €140 rack rates, start putting figures in place, it’s almost impossible to know what they would consider to be an “appropriate price”.

A few things:

Some of the comments on this thread about Old Head leading the way are laughable. It’s €90 for a limited number of opens, or €130 otherwise. If this is best practice, you’re pulling at straws with your price points.

If a course is promoting €140 rack rates, then there will likely be substantially cheaper fees available At certain times, and for competitions that haven’t yet been slotted in.

If someone has connections that allow them cut price golf on Adare, why does this upset you? Are you really more “golf” than them? And even if you were, why would this entitle you to reduced rates? VIPs are everywhere. This is nothing to do with golf.

Telling people that there’s a €100 Pebble Beach out of season green fee for locals does not support anyone’s case. If anyone has ever paid €100 or more for a winter green fee in Ireland, most of the money was going into the pro’s back pocket.

Last but not least. Peak season isn’t created by the yanks. It’s created by the weather. We will have reduced peak rates all over Ireland this year, but if will still be more expensive than winter golf.

[Deleted User]

Most of these Clubs/Courses would have reserves built up from years of green fees. If they drop their rates then they are inundated with people playing the course which brings more wear and tear especially on links courses. It is also a status thing I suppose with a lot of them.

What does bug me though is non golfers or those who play the odd game getting out in places like Adare for nothing because they are well known.

slave1

Raisins wrote: »

People still say how dare they it should only be €200. Two courses in the worlds top 10 ocean courses. Rock up to bandon dunes or pebble beach and ask them have they any opens for 50 quid. The mind boggles.

You just cannot compare an Irish course whilst we are Irish residents to a random US course.
Locals always get reduced rates, you can play various top rated US courses as part of local area residents at heavily reduced rates.

The proper comparison is what can a local resident play a local course at inclusive of local resident rate versus an Irish local resident e.g. GUI rate.
But even then you still have one countries economy versus another.
There's no perfect way of doing this...

EG Pebble Beach that you mention is $575 (lets exclude cart and caddy) but if you are a member of NCGA then you will get it much much cheaper, they don't advertise it but I've seen YT guys playing it for €100 over the "Winter" months

Benicetomonty

Raisins wrote: »

Yeh their own bank accounts.

I don’t understand this outrage or frustration that some courses aren’t desperate for business. It gets on people’s nerves but that’s the prerogative of their members.

You can drive down and play both ballybunion courses and Tralee for €275, in absolute peak season at your pick of tee time.

People still say how dare they it should only be €200. Two courses in the worlds top 10 ocean courses. Rock up to bandon dunes or pebble beach and ask them have they any opens for 50 quid. The mind boggles.

Im neither outraged nor frustrated at what golf courses charge. Theyre private businesses, up to them what their green fees are. Im more of an opportunist. Waterville may well have the reserves to cover the build. Certainly, if they have been prudent with their money over the last couple of decades, theyve nothing to worry about.

However, they will feel the bite of not having their usual Japanese and American friends paying top dollar this summer. It would be foolish to think otherwise. As was previously mentioned, next summer may also be compromised to some extent. Brexit is another threat as visitors from the UK may have issues beyond Covid. Which leaves them somewhat reliant on locals for income to pay staff etc. Id expect more clubs to follow Old Head in hosting opens to offset some of the costs. Time will tell. Maybe Im being optimistic.

Raisins

Benicetomonty wrote: »

. Money has to come from somewhere!

Yeh their own bank accounts.

I don’t understand this outrage or frustration that some courses aren’t desperate for business. It gets on people’s nerves but that’s the prerogative of their members.

You can drive down and play both ballybunion courses and Tralee for €275, in absolute peak season at your pick of tee time.

People still say how dare they it should only be €200. Two courses in the worlds top 10 ocean courses. Rock up to bandon dunes or pebble beach and ask them have they any opens for 50 quid. The mind boggles.

mike12

Beaulieu wrote: »

I this confirmed for 2020? Would be great if it was.

Sold out already

Beaulieu

Benicetomonty wrote: »

The fact that Old Head is hosting Open comps during July, something Ive never seen them do, would seem to back this up.

I this confirmed for 2020? Would be great if it was.

Whiplash85

thewobbler wrote: »

Let’s try this one in reverse.

What price point do you think a worldwide top 100 course should charge in peak season, that will both attract local golfers, but not see the product’s positioning damaged by an influx of bargain hunters?

There’s 300 courses in Ireland you can play cheap golf on. That’s not the market for these courses, even if you so, so want it to be.

The arse has kind of fallen out of the Peak season notion wouldn't you say.
International travel certainly wont be the same for a very long time. Ireland had 10m visitors last year with a big % of that devoted to golf tourism. That is gone now. They should run open days for €80 or €90 for GUI members. Otherwise I cant see where the money or cashflow to run these golf courses is going to come from. The other 300 courses you mentioned - the majority of them you will be able to pay green fees for €20. Some of the top 100 courses like Ballybunion, Tralee etc allow Atlantic coast challenge, social media links competitions where the price of playing would not exceed €100 per round.

mike12

There are 2 or 3 build for the American tourist courses in Ireland.
Almost all are members courses which are currently busy with members.
I like to play the top courses on open days or team 3 day comps as they are exceptional value on those deals.

I have never paid over 100 on a green fee because it is outside my price range.

I will pay it to finish off my quest to play all the 18 hole links in Ireland when I can afford the fee these super courses choose to charge.

If you do a green fee comparison of the 100 top courses even in the UK and Ireland, Ireland is the cheapest place to play golf.

Benicetomonty

thewobbler wrote: »

Let’s try this one in reverse.

What price point do you think a worldwide top 100 course should charge in peak season, that will both attract local golfers, but not see the product’s positioning damaged by an influx of bargain hunters?

There’s 300 courses in Ireland you can play cheap golf on. That’s not the market for these courses, even if you so, so want it to be.

I distinctly remember clubs like Waterville and Lahinch hosting open events for around 50e 5 or 6 years ago. You can play RCD for 50 pounds in July via Mourne golf club's open week. Dont see how the 'product positioning' has been damaged in any of those instances.
I would anticipate there may well be some movement on green fees here and there. Im sure the big links tracks have a few bob in reserves but theyl be hit hard by summer cancellations and incentives for locals is an easy way to make some of it back.

The fact that Old Head is hosting Open comps during July, something Ive never seen them do, would seem to back this up. There are very few Irish golfers that will pay 140e for a game of golf (not even a comp!) and there are even fewer that will do it twice. Throw in the remoteness of some of our major links venues and youre looking at a dearth of repeat customers because the fee combined with travel and an overnight stay (with the reality of a very restricted pub and nightlife scene) would make too many people unwilling to consider such an expedition. The likes of Portmarnock may be able to consider maintaining their fees but other clubs may have to relax them this summer as a once off.
I see Waterville have a reasonably new clubhouse to pay for as well. Money has to come from somewhere!

thewobbler

Whiplash85 wrote: »

I cant see how some of the top end golf courses are going to attract customers with €140 per person. I get that it is normally €250 but anything north of €100 is not very enticing to a domestic tourism market. A lot of these golf courses are built for American executives and high rollers who can easily part with €250 in green fees and another €250 in the pro shop buying golf apparel. I rang Adare earlier and it was €395 for a round. That is just insane. I predict golf courses in general will charge lower for green fees in the coming months and as we draw closer to 29th June there may be a shift.

Let’s try this one in reverse.

What price point do you think a worldwide top 100 course should charge in peak season, that will both attract local golfers, but not see the product’s positioning damaged by an influx of bargain hunters?

There’s 300 courses in Ireland you can play cheap golf on. That’s not the market for these courses, even if you so, so want it to be.

Whiplash85

I cant see how some of the top end golf courses are going to attract customers with €140 per person. I get that it is normally €250 but anything north of €100 is not very enticing to a domestic tourism market. A lot of these golf courses are built for American executives and high rollers who can easily part with €250 in green fees and another €250 in the pro shop buying golf apparel. I rang Adare earlier and it was €395 for a round. That is just insane. I predict golf courses in general will charge lower for green fees in the coming months and as we draw closer to 29th June there may be a shift.

Mushy

rooney30 wrote: »

It’s green fee is normally 250 . At 140 your getting a 45% discount , to play the course in its summer peak condition . Seems alright to me

I meant next month, wont be able to splash out 140 on a round after travel costs

Raisins

Co Louth - €100
The European - €100

GUI rates.

rooney30

Mushy wrote: »

Disappointing! Wont be paying 140 for it myself

It’s green fee is normally 250 . At 140 your getting a 45% discount , to play the course in its summer peak condition . Seems alright to me

Mushy

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Waterville replied there. 75e rate only kicks in from November, as specified on website. Golfguy or possibly his member must have confused winter and summer rates. 140e til November

Disappointing! Wont be paying 140 for it myself

Benicetomonty

Waterville replied there. 75e rate only kicks in from November, as specified on website. Golfguy or possibly his member must have confused winter and summer rates. 140e til November

mike12

The list of links looks a bit big think the 58 in the link below are the real links courses.

https://migrantgolfer.com/the-true-links-courses-of-the-world/