The Links Thread

Benicetomonty wrote: »

. Money has to come from somewhere!

Yeh their own bank accounts.

I don’t understand this outrage or frustration that some courses aren’t desperate for business. It gets on people’s nerves but that’s the prerogative of their members.

You can drive down and play both ballybunion courses and Tralee for €275, in absolute peak season at your pick of tee time.

People still say how dare they it should only be €200. Two courses in the worlds top 10 ocean courses. Rock up to bandon dunes or pebble beach and ask them have they any opens for 50 quid. The mind boggles.

Benicetomonty

Raisins wrote: »

Yeh their own bank accounts.

I don’t understand this outrage or frustration that some courses aren’t desperate for business. It gets on people’s nerves but that’s the prerogative of their members.

You can drive down and play both ballybunion courses and Tralee for €275, in absolute peak season at your pick of tee time.

People still say how dare they it should only be €200. Two courses in the worlds top 10 ocean courses. Rock up to bandon dunes or pebble beach and ask them have they any opens for 50 quid. The mind boggles.

Im neither outraged nor frustrated at what golf courses charge. Theyre private businesses, up to them what their green fees are. Im more of an opportunist. Waterville may well have the reserves to cover the build. Certainly, if they have been prudent with their money over the last couple of decades, theyve nothing to worry about.

However, they will feel the bite of not having their usual Japanese and American friends paying top dollar this summer. It would be foolish to think otherwise. As was previously mentioned, next summer may also be compromised to some extent. Brexit is another threat as visitors from the UK may have issues beyond Covid. Which leaves them somewhat reliant on locals for income to pay staff etc. Id expect more clubs to follow Old Head in hosting opens to offset some of the costs. Time will tell. Maybe Im being optimistic.

slave1

Raisins wrote: »

People still say how dare they it should only be €200. Two courses in the worlds top 10 ocean courses. Rock up to bandon dunes or pebble beach and ask them have they any opens for 50 quid. The mind boggles.

You just cannot compare an Irish course whilst we are Irish residents to a random US course.
Locals always get reduced rates, you can play various top rated US courses as part of local area residents at heavily reduced rates.

The proper comparison is what can a local resident play a local course at inclusive of local resident rate versus an Irish local resident e.g. GUI rate.
But even then you still have one countries economy versus another.
There's no perfect way of doing this...

EG Pebble Beach that you mention is $575 (lets exclude cart and caddy) but if you are a member of NCGA then you will get it much much cheaper, they don't advertise it but I've seen YT guys playing it for €100 over the "Winter" months

[Deleted User]

Most of these Clubs/Courses would have reserves built up from years of green fees. If they drop their rates then they are inundated with people playing the course which brings more wear and tear especially on links courses. It is also a status thing I suppose with a lot of them.

What does bug me though is non golfers or those who play the odd game getting out in places like Adare for nothing because they are well known.

Again, until those who bemoan €140 rack rates, start putting figures in place, it’s almost impossible to know what they would consider to be an “appropriate price”.

A few things:

Some of the comments on this thread about Old Head leading the way are laughable. It’s €90 for a limited number of opens, or €130 otherwise. If this is best practice, you’re pulling at straws with your price points.

If a course is promoting €140 rack rates, then there will likely be substantially cheaper fees available At certain times, and for competitions that haven’t yet been slotted in.

If someone has connections that allow them cut price golf on Adare, why does this upset you? Are you really more “golf” than them? And even if you were, why would this entitle you to reduced rates? VIPs are everywhere. This is nothing to do with golf.

Telling people that there’s a €100 Pebble Beach out of season green fee for locals does not support anyone’s case. If anyone has ever paid €100 or more for a winter green fee in Ireland, most of the money was going into the pro’s back pocket.

Last but not least. Peak season isn’t created by the yanks. It’s created by the weather. We will have reduced peak rates all over Ireland this year, but if will still be more expensive than winter golf.

rooney30

These pandemic rates seem reasonable to me . These courses have been heavily discounted . I get it if guys wouldn’t pay over 100 euro to play any course , that’s their choice , it’s not your god given right to do so . There’s plenty that will .
Reminds me a bit when the housing market tanked 50% , with guys at the bottom of the market , feeling it was their right to get a further 20% discount to what they themselves believed a house to be worth

FixdePitchmark

I think I posted in the other thread 100 euro. It feels - not cheap , but just right on the higher side.

I think that is fair for all parties. And , I suppose that is the sort of figure coming back from the clubs that have done it - 140 is a serious push. You are still going to travel 4/5 hours - stay over - eat - a few pints - buy something , you will drop well over 300 euro on trip. How many of them can someone do in a year - 3 at a push.

Also - 100 euro and less is what you get them for in classics.

I suppose a formal GUI rate would remove all this daft chasing , and trying to get a contact and trying to play a 6 hour round in a classic versus lads from Tipperary having 110 points, your team 93 pts on the round of their life.

I probably know over 200 people who play golf - lads going off to play these courses , are a small niche within that golf community. Boards here is not a good sample of average golfers - we are golf nuts.

This summer is an odd ball one - and I'm delighted, but pissed off too. It should be like this all the time , not just because the yanks haven't come in. It is a bit, Let them eat cake.

To be honest - there are a few I wouldn't mind being sweated a bit more.

A strange attitude to some here , how dare you peasants even consider coming in at a reduced rate. We only do the elite here and wouldn't lower ourselves to an Irish rate.

€100 - is a serious green fee. It isn't going to bring buses of the unwashed in , who will rip the place apart and ruin the fake atmosphere for the absent yanks.

They are all GUI clubs and all get significant tax breaks from the Irish Revenue.

davegilly

Money reserves or not - the likes of Ballybunion, Tralee, Waterville etc are losing monstrosities of money this year. Absolute monstrosities.

The Yank 4 ball every 10 minutes at a grand a pop is gone. Thats €6K every hour of every day from May to Sept. Gone.

FixdePitchmark

davegilly wrote: »

Money reserves or not - the likes of Ballybunion, Tralee, Waterville etc are losing monstrosities of money this year. Absolute monstrosities.

The Yank 4 ball every 10 minutes at a grand a pop is gone. Thats €6K every hour of every day from May to Sept. Gone.

Is it every hour of every day ?

Can't be, as members would have no tee times.

Anyway - what do the do with the money - serious question. If it is as you describe , they are bringing in 4/5 times what it take to operate a golf club - no matter how you operate it.

davegilly

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Is it every hour of every day.

No, not every hour. In Ballybunion members times are extremely limited during the week on the Old course. The visitors have most of the times in the morning and early afternoon. Members have Sat and Sun morning for comps. The rest of the day is visitors again.

The thing to remember though is there is a second course, the cashen, where members can play pretty much when they want so if you dont get out on the old you always have option B. The annual sub for two championship courses, one of which is probably top 20 in the world is approx €500! Not bad eh! However it will mean dipping into the war chest this year without the yankee dollar to fall back on.

Benicetomonty

davegilly wrote: »

No, not every hour. In Ballybunion members times are extremely limited during the week on the Old course. The visitors have most of the times in the morning and early afternoon. Members have Sat and Sun morning for comps. The rest of the day is visitors again.

The thing to remember though is there is a second course, the cashen, where members can play pretty much when they want so if you dont get out on the old you always have option B. The annual sub for two championship courses, one of which is probably top 20 in the world is approx €500! Not bad eh! However it will mean dipping into the war chest this year without the yankee dollar to fall back on.

Ballybunion have always been good for putting on yearly opens, including snr, jnr and intermediate scratch cups. Fabulous place, membership and golf course, have been lucky enough to play both tracks many times. They seem to have a very different attitude in respect of incentivising domestic players to visit when compared to Lahinch, Waterville, Portmarnock etc.

Discounting the significance of Old Head's practically unprecedented decision to host open competitions is burying one's head in the sand dunes as to how badly remote links courses will be financially affected this summer. Places that dont follow suit will feel it to some extent, whether it's this year or next.

slave1 wrote: »

.

The proper comparison is what can a local resident play a local course at inclusive of local resident rate versus an Irish local resident e.g. GUI rate.
But even then you still have one countries economy versus another.
There's no perfect way of doing this...

I completely agree there’s no perfect comparison. I meant Bandon Dunes or Pebble are fair in terms of quality though and they’re not 50 - 100. There’s surely no way every member of ncga gets pebble in August for €100. What’s being discussed is the covid rack rate in July / August. Winter rates are not what’s being debated I don’t think.

I don’t think having a GUI card entitles a golfer to be treated like a local and that might be the crux of the argument. Peoples opinions differ on how meaningful being in the GUI is when it comes to greenfees. An “Irish local resident” of Waterville lives down there. They’re not a GUI member from Dublin or Galway but I respect there’s a difference of opinion on that.

bmay529

Correct me if I am wrong but in my experience most of the premier courses frequented by Americans/Japanese golfers such as Ballybunion, Tralee, Lahinch, Waterville, etc usually have a very full timesheet in summer and in a lot of cases players that could be catagorised as occasional golfer at best but have deep pockets. So good luck to those golf courses who can dictate their rate but that is unlikely to be the case for the next year or two.

I understand the concept of higher green fees leading to reduced usage mentioned earlier and therefor reduced wear and tear on a course but it would seem to me if courses are full during the summer that logic is not normally applied... the Dollar is all powerful.

Lahinch are offering a greenfee of €150 from late August and there are stay/play rates to be had for Ballybunion from €250.

I for one, with a number of friends, would be interest in arranging a few stay/play trips to west coast links this summer if the rates were "reasonable", say within the magical €100 green fee rate. While some courses have a very healthy Balance sheet a €400 line may not be as good as a €1,000 line but to many is an awful lot better than 0 and can still contribute well to the bottom line at year end.

It is interesting to speak to elder Irish golfers who remind us that a lot of those courses forget that it was GUI members (paying unbelievably modest rates) that helped many of those very remote courses survive in the early days and helped develop their reputation.

bmay529 wrote: »

It is interesting to speak to elder Irish golfers who remind us that a lot of those courses forget that it was GUI members (paying unbelievably modest rates) that helped many of those very remote courses survive in the early days and helped develop their reputation.

I’m expecting that same elder gentlemen would try to convince you that scratch golfers from 1950 were more skilled golfers than anyone playing today. Like somehow golf flies in the face of evolution.

Not trying to be contrarian, but there’s always a rough of nostalgia for the olden days. I suffer from it myself.

——

Either way, their small visitor fees 40 years ago were not to visit the same thing. The land might have been roughly the same, but the conditioning and attention to detail would have been distant cousins.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I think I posted in the other thread 100 euro. It feels - not cheap , but just right on the higher side.

I think that is fair for all parties. And , I suppose that is the sort of figure coming back from the clubs that have done it - 140 is a serious push. You are still going to travel 4/5 hours - stay over - eat - a few pints - buy something , you will drop well over 300 euro on trip. How many of them can someone do in a year - 3 at a push.

Also - 100 euro and less is what you get them for in classics.

I suppose a formal GUI rate would remove all this daft chasing , and trying to get a contact and trying to play a 6 hour round in a classic versus lads from Tipperary having 110 points, your team 93 pts on the round of their life.

I probably know over 200 people who play golf - lads going off to play these courses , are a small niche within that golf community. Boards here is not a good sample of average golfers - we are golf nuts.

This summer is an odd ball one - and I'm delighted, but pissed off too. It should be like this all the time , not just because the yanks haven't come in. It is a bit, Let them eat cake.

To be honest - there are a few I wouldn't mind being sweated a bit more.

A strange attitude to some here , how dare you peasants even consider coming in at a reduced rate. We only do the elite here and wouldn't lower ourselves to an Irish rate.

€100 - is a serious green fee. It isn't going to bring buses of the unwashed in , who will rip the place apart and ruin the fake atmosphere for the absent yanks.

They are all GUI clubs and all get significant tax breaks from the Irish Revenue.

Pretty much agree with the sentiments expressed above.

Can't honestly say I'm too worried about these "prestige" clubs suffering because they can't command three figure green fees, or if their financial projections have been blown out of the water by what's happened.

A lot of these places don't really buy into the reciprocity of golf - they expect their members to be able to avail of their GUI privileges at other courses but then price out locals or golfers from other GUI-affiliated clubs, or simply don't run open competitions or scratch cups to allow golfers the opportunitiy to play at their facilities at a reasonable cost (as in a cost that's objectively reasonable, not a cost that's reasonable relative to their normal green fee).

It's their course, their club and their business (and it's obviously up to others if they want to take advantage of any "discounts" currently offered) but my preference would be for clubs that are genuinely welcoming of visitors, not just ones looking to make a quick buck from the schmucks with their noses pressed up against the glass.

I would think a few people on this thread have developed their own personal preference flavour of why the GUI exists, and why clubs choose to be affiliated. And it’s not quite grounded in reality.

I’m very happy to be corrected here, but the role of a golfing union is to:

- facilitate and administer competitions between clubs and individuals.

- provide, monitor and arbitrate a mechanism whereby competition between members is judged to be fair by all who compete (handicapping).

- represent and promote the interests of its members on the international stage.

Open competitions are only a byproduct of the GUI’s function. As the handicapping element of the GUI‘S function effectively allows any club to administer competitive intra-club golf with little-to-no effort, it provides them with an opportunity to market their course, to a clearly defined and often captive audience, on occasions when the timesheet might be at a lull.

Which, fundamentally means that clubs without other means of filling their timesheets (from members, tourists, or societies) are naturally going to run more open competitions than other clubs.... and that clubs which do not need to market, will not bother.

I would encourage anyone who wish to use words like the need for reciprocity when discussing open competitions, to take a step back, and consider that even if you really really really want this to be the case, it isn’t so.

Ally McIntosh

thewobbler wrote: »

I would think a few people on this thread have developed their own personal preference flavour of why the GUI exists, and why clubs choose to be affiliated. And it’s not quite grounded in reality.

I’m very happy to be corrected here, but the role of a golfing union is to:

- facilitate and administer competitions between clubs and individuals.

- provide, monitor and arbitrate a mechanism whereby competition between members is judged to be fair by all who compete (handicapping).

- represent and promote the interests of its members on the international stage.

Open competitions are only a byproduct of the GUI’s function. As the handicapping element of the GUI‘S function effectively allows any club to administer competitive intra-club golf with little-to-no effort, it provides them with an opportunity to market their course, to a clearly defined and often captive audience, on occasions when the timesheet might be at a lull.

Which, fundamentally means that clubs without other means of filling their timesheets (from members, tourists, or societies) are naturally going to run more open competitions than other clubs.... and that clubs which do not need to market, will not bother.

I would encourage anyone who wish to use words like the need for reciprocity when discussing open competitions, to take a step back, and consider that even if you really really really want this to be the case, it isn’t so.

This explains the situation well.

In addition, consider what each individual pays the GUI for membership yearly? Around €24 if I recall correctly. For a token sum like that, reciprocal playing rights at 400 other clubs should certainly not be a given.

As I stated elsewhere, if prestige clubs are to give “something” back, I believe it more valuable for them to occasionally open their course to the local village / town or to deserving charities.

thewobbler wrote: »

I would think a few people on this thread have developed their own personal preference flavour of why the GUI exists, and why clubs choose to be affiliated. And it’s not quite grounded in reality.

I’m very happy to be corrected here, but the role of a golfing union is to:

- facilitate and administer competitions between clubs and individuals.

- provide, monitor and arbitrate a mechanism whereby competition between members is judged to be fair by all who compete (handicapping).

- represent and promote the interests of its members on the international stage.

Open competitions are only a byproduct of the GUI’s function. As the handicapping element of the GUI‘S function effectively allows any club to administer competitive intra-club golf with little-to-no effort, it provides them with an opportunity to market their course, to a clearly defined and often captive audience, on occasions when the timesheet might be at a lull.

Which, fundamentally means that clubs without other means of filling their timesheets (from members, tourists, or societies) are naturally going to run more open competitions than other clubs.... and that clubs which do not need to market, will not bother.

I would encourage anyone who wish to use words like the need for reciprocity when discussing open competitions, to take a step back, and consider that even if you really really really want this to be the case, it isn’t so.

Clubs are, and should be independent and left to be run by their members.

Equity, to my mind, plays a big part in how golf is played and administered.

Now, it's a long time since I studied equity and trusts, but many of the maxims associated with it still rattle around in my head, especially "he that seeks equity must do equity."

I've no problem with clubs, for whatever reason, being exclusionary but I think it's a bit rich that while excluding, through direct or indirect means, players from other GUI-affiliated clubs, their own players get the advantage of that affiliation.

Personally, I think if a club wants its membership to enjoy playing or competition privileges at other clubs then that should be tied to running some minimum number of open competitions (3 maybe 4 per year plus scratch cups at all levels).

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Clubs are, and should be independent and left to be run by their members.

Equity, to my mind, plays a big part in how golf is played and administered.

Now, it's a long time since I studied equity and trusts, but many of the maxims associated with it still rattle around in my head, especially "he that seeks equity must do equity."

I've no problem with clubs, for whatever reason, being exclusionary but I think it's a bit rich that while excluding, through direct or indirect means, players from other GUI-affiliated clubs, their own players get the advantage of that affiliation.

Personally, I think if a club wants its membership to enjoy playing or competition privileges at other clubs then that should be tied to running some minimum number of open competitions (3 maybe 4 per year plus scratch cups at all levels).

But again I believe that you’re touch confused about what it is that GUI affiliation provides (and should provide).

The GUI provides and monitors a mechanism that allows intra-club competition to take place through fair, transparent, and widely understood means.

As such it provides an opportunity for member clubs to welcome guests, for competitive golf, on an equal footing.

That is by nature, a system of equals. As a result of its existence, The same opportunity exists for EVERY club to welcome guests for competitive golf.

But you’re determined that there should be an “equitable” end product too, whereby the aforementioned opportunity is taken in roughly equal measures by all member clubs. A golfing variation on communism, of sorts.

The ultimate problem here is that in order to achieve your outcome, golf would have to be administered in a communist-style way i.e. similar membership fees, similar guest fees, which in turn should mean similar budgets, and therefore similar conditioning and attention to detail.

The only potential outcome from this is a non-affiliated higher rung of exclusive private clubs.

What you want is not the golf union that Ireland needs. Trust me.

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Equity, to my mind, plays a big part in how golf is played and administered.

Now, it's a long time since I studied equity and trusts, but many of the maxims associated with it still rattle around in my head, especially "he that seeks equity must do equity.".

That’s definitely creative but you can’t seriously try to apply an equitable maxim that applies to parties seeking equitable orders over one another in litigation in the courts to the running of open competitions in golf.

There’s some courses in the country who continue to refuse to admit female members. Before we start assuming how equitable golf is played and run we should address that I think. It’s a much more serious issue than whether the richer Kerry course run enough opens. If the GUI were dipping in their toe into equitable enforcement they’d have to start there.

thewobbler wrote: »

But again I believe that you’re touch confused about what it is that GUI affiliation provides (and should provide).

The GUI provides and monitors a mechanism that allows intra-club competition to take place through fair, transparent, and widely understood means.

As such it provides an opportunity for member clubs to welcome guests, for competitive golf, on an equal footing.

That is by nature, a system of equals. As a result of its existence, The same opportunity exists for EVERY club to welcome guests for competitive golf.

But you’re determined that there should be an “equitable” end product too, whereby the aforementioned opportunity is taken in roughly equal measures by all member clubs. A golfing variation on communism, of sorts.

The ultimate problem here is that in order to achieve your outcome, golf would have to be administered in a communist-style way i.e. similar membership fees, similar guest fees, which in turn should mean similar budgets, and therefore similar conditioning and attention to detail.

The only potential outcome from this is a non-affiliated higher rung of exclusive private clubs.

What you want is not the golf union that Ireland needs. Trust me.

Thank you and I'm not confused at all.

Plus, I'm not advocating any kind of communism or fee equalisation. I'm simply suggesting that members of clubs not running 3/4 open comps per year and scratch cups, would not be permitted to play in open competitions and scratch cups run in other clubs. I'm merely suggesting equity of access, with questions of cost/affordability being left to individual clubs.

They could still participate in inter-club competition, if they wished.

And if that leads to a group of exclusive clubs going their own way from the GUI then so be it. That's their decision and one their membership should be free to make.

It's not like their existence or participation in the GUI has any relevance to the greater mass of golfers in the country. Indeed, it is arguable that they "take out" more from the game than they put in by being as exclusionary as they are.

Raisins wrote: »

That’s definitely creative but you can’t seriously try to apply an equitable maxim that applies to parties seeking equitable orders over one another in litigation in the courts to the running of open competitions in golf.

There’s some courses in the country who continue to refuse to admit female members. Before we start assuming how equitable golf is played and run we should address that I think. It’s a much more serious issue than whether the richer Kerry course run enough opens. If the GUI were dipping in their toe into equitable enforcement they’d have to start there.

Why not? The Rules of Golf have previously recognised equity, as has, I believe, previous rules around handicapping, so it's not like equity is an alien concept in golf.

Also, I don't think it's a question of enforcement - just an opt in system. If a clubs opts to run opens then it's members can play opens elsewhere. If they decide it's not for them, then their members can't play opens elsewhere - maybe the provision could be modified to allow bilateral agreements with individual clubs, but the privilege of being able to play opens as an automatic one would simply cease.

ShivasIrons

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Clubs are, and should be independent and left to be run by their members.

Equity, to my mind, plays a big part in how golf is played and administered.

Now, it's a long time since I studied equity and trusts, but many of the maxims associated with it still rattle around in my head, especially "he that seeks equity must do equity."

I've no problem with clubs, for whatever reason, being exclusionary but I think it's a bit rich that while excluding, through direct or indirect means, players from other GUI-affiliated clubs, their own players get the advantage of that affiliation.

Personally, I think if a club wants its membership to enjoy playing or competition privileges at other clubs then that should be tied to running some minimum number of open competitions (3 maybe 4 per year plus scratch cups at all levels).

The GUI ask more of the 'marquee' clubs then any others, asking them to host inter club, inter provincial, championships and international matches. Portmarnock, Royal County Down, Royal Portrush etc contribute plenty of time and resources to the GUI. They don't exclude anyone. Anyone can enter the North of Ireland Championship in Portrush, yes you do have to have a low handicap to get in, but they're not excluding GUI members.

Explain, now, given that all courses are made available to the GUI, that 'marquee' courses should give away their course cheaply because someone, who is too tight to pay the fee they ask, thinks they should?

ShivasIrons wrote: »

The GUI ask more of the 'marquee' clubs then any others, asking them to host inter club, inter provincial, championships and international matches. Portmarnock, Royal County Down, Royal Portrush etc contribute plenty of time and resources to the GUI. They don't exclude anyone. Anyone can enter the North of Ireland Championship in Portrush, yes you do have to have a low handicap to get in, but they're not excluding GUI members.

Explain, now, given that all courses are made available to the GUI, that 'marquee' courses should give away their course cheaply because someone, who is too tight to pay the fee they ask, thinks they should?

So not everyone can enter the North of Ireland?

And, please reread what I posted. Nowhere did I suggest that clubs give rounds away cheaply - only that they run some minimal level of open comps.

And the so-called "marquee" clubs really only permit the top echelon of inter-club comps to be played on their courses (which is great for the participants but also for the club as well, so not a wholly altruistic gesture).......can't remember the last time one of them hosted a Pierce Purcell qualifier 😀