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Public service pay cut?

[Deleted User]

Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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daithi7

serious question for all you public sector union types:

Is there any other country in the world (OECD) giving an across the board pay rise of 2% or more to their public sector at this time???

Fann Linn

daithi7 wrote: »

serious question for all you public sector union types:

Is there any other country in the world (OECD) giving an across the board pay rise of 2% or more to their public sector at this time???

I never really bother myself with what other people get paid.

mickuhaha

As far as I am aware the 2 percent pay increase it part of the restoration of pay levels pre 2007. It has been a slow restoration over the last number of years with I believe 5 different points increased. In 2007 the average wage was 37700 and in 2018 it was closer to 39000. If you look at it from that point of view the civil service pay never increased in line with the private sector.

daithi7

Fann Linn wrote: »

I never really bother myself with what other people get paid.

You would if you were paying for it though

[Deleted User]

daithi7 wrote: »

serious question for all you public sector union types:

Is there any other country in the world (OECD) giving an across the board pay rise of 2% or more to their public sector at this time???

Germany

https://www.ei-ie.org/en/detail/16172/germany-a-collective-agreement-with-an-8-salary-increase-for-public-workers

The collective agreement provides for increases:

With retroactive effect from 1 January 2019: 3.2 % (including minimum amount 100€)
From 1 January 2020: 3.2 % (including minimum amount 90€)
From 1 January 2021: 1.4 % (including minimum 50€)
Major increases: 4.5 % as of 1st January 2019, 4.3 % as of 1st January 2020, and 1.8 % as of 1st January 2021
A total of 8 % for the full collective agreement’s 33-month term.

I'm not a public sector union type, so being offered a fifteen percent pay rise from the company that I work for as a way to try and keep me from leaving next week.

Treppen

daithi7 wrote: »

You would if you were paying for it though

The thing you're missing out is that it's not a closed loop where private sector pays for all public sector.

You're paying for some Joe's pay bonus in the bank where you keep your money or the pharma company shareholder dividends that provides your medication.

But I guess you'd only be happy if everyone in the public sector stayed on Pt. 1 of the scale for their whole career. Recession or no recession.

Geuze

daithi7 wrote: »

The latest one was 2% when the country had hit a pandemic, bringing with it 25% unemployment, over 50% of the population dependent on the state and borrowing for current expenditure. That's before even considering the obliterated hospitality, tourism, sport & retail sectors with many self employed obliterated & the tax base going forward seriously eroded. To give a pay rise in that scenario is patently stupid & grossly unfair imho.

The 2019 pay restoration was 1.75%, not 2%.

The 2020 pay restoration is 2%, planned for 1 Oct 2020.

5.1. Unwinding of FEMPI
5.1.1. As part of the progressive ongoing reduction of the impact on the remuneration and other terms and conditions of all public servants through the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Acts, the Parties have reached agreement to provide for a fiscally sustainable programme of public service pay measures as follows:

2018
• 1 January 2018 annualised salaries to increase by 1%;
• 1 October 2018 annualised salaries to increase by 1%.
2019
• 1 January 2019 annualised salaries up to €30,000 to increase by 1%;
• 1 September annualised salaries to increase by 1.75%.
2020
• 1 January 2020 annualised salaries up to €32,000 to increase by 0.5%;
• 1 October 2020 annualised salaries to increase by 2%.

Scoundrel

daithi7 wrote: »

because we all have to pay for the massively over generous, individual lottery win for every retiring pubic service employee in the land last year, this year and for the next 50 fuppin years. That's why!!

Why don't you just join the PS if it's so great? Or is the martyr complex too strong?

[Deleted User]

daithi7 wrote: »

serious question for all you public sector union types:

Is there any other country in the world (OECD) giving an across the board pay rise of 2% or more to their public sector at this time???

Google it.

Hotblack Desiato

noodler wrote: »

What point are you trying to make?

AP is the next grade above AO

The AO scale never reaches the bottom of AP. It's quite a number of thousands short even with LSIs included.

Oh ffs

AO starts just above the bottom of the EO scale
It finishes equal to the top of the HEO scale

HEO is the grade above EO

Comprenez?

You chose the ONLY grade in the civil service with a pay scale which spans the pay scales of two other grades, in order to cherry-pick some BS point about pay doubling (which even your own figures are nowhere near)

This is a grade for honours degree holders only and recruits in limited numbers, it is regarded as a fast track to promotion to AP so comparatively few AOs would get to the top of their scale without being promoted.

noodler wrote: »

Increments cost over 250m a hear and were protected at a time when everything else in the economy was being cut.

Another spoof.

Increments were postponed for most staff.

Many things including OAP were not cut.

Hotblack Desiato

daithi7 wrote: »

The latest one was 2%

Not an increment, a partial restoration of pay cuts from over ten years ago

You quite clearly do not have a clue about what you are ranting about.

daithi7

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not an increment, a partial restoration of pay cuts from over ten years ago

Oh, do you mean the totally unsustainable pay levels of the Celtic Tiger era, that were all to be paid with one off property transaction taxes!?

How did that work out then!?

Treppen

daithi7 wrote: »

Oh, do you mean the totally unsustainable pay levels of the Celtic Tiger era, that were all to be paid with one off property transaction taxes!?

How did that work out then!?

Where did you see that property transaction taxes were directly paying for public sector pay?

So how did the pay cuts to public service work out for you then?

[Deleted User]

coherency is a lot to ask for in a crank, it seems

lads, ye outsource expertise in getting the best deal possible to several layers of negotiation and configuration over a lengthy and complex set of processes.

based on yer exhibited low tolerance for detail or conceptualisation of the sector in these threads, not too many of ye would get a seat at the table.

i wouldnt worry about it if i were ye. no doubt ye bring a lot to the table of whatever table ye do get to sit at, in the private sector, which must have ye well sorted by competence and performance by now.

no doubt.

GooglePlus

I've been in the civil service for 3 years now, starting as a CO and now an EO. Across all grades, I have seen nothing but people getting on with genuine interest in their work and a drive I hadn't seen before in the private sector. The offices we work in are old and outdated, as they wouldn't dare spend too much money on the building in case the public start barking but people still do their job well.

This digging at CS salaries and pensions by some is ridiculous but it's tale as old as time.

People just hate the thought of tax going towards public employment, as if the country would run itself without civil and public servants.

never_mind

I love the general discourse that PS workers are lazy, inefficient paper-pushers in this thread.

Public service workers include doctors, judges, firemen, teachers, lecturers, guards etc. Not all PS workers are admin workers and those that are are doing a service to the state (revenue, social protection, county councils etc.). I thought covid would have given people the opportunity to reflect on its importance and try to support not demonise it.

Jim Root

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Google it.

That’ll be a no then.

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

my response was a bit short in fairness.

these threads and phone posting have a way of doing that, so sorry if it came across too brusque

but i will restate that a public servant who moves up the increments does so under the terms and conditions under which they were offered and accepted the job.

it is fully correct and only correct to treat this one way- over time, you account for increments when comparing whether the person's pay has risen

ao pt 1 did not rise significantly over ten years. thats the valid comparison.

what happened a given ao, who was on pt 1 in 2010, is tbh irrelevant. many are ap or higher now. many are ao pt 7. many no doubt are private sector and earning buckets of cash. maybe some moved abroad and maybe some died.

if you were discussing say mechanical engineer's pay from 2010 through 2020 you wouldnt pick one and start pinning how he moved on himself in that time.

youd pick yr position, average starting or average with five years or whatever, in 2010 and youd use that plot point again for 2020

its not me playing any kind of silly buggers to point this out.

an ao pt 7 has progressed there on merit (and if you disagree that's another thread) and will be performing at a totally different level than one starting out.

if you total their pre fempi nominal earnings for that decade, they are *significantly* cumulatively worse off. this isnt fake accounting practice, this is the reality of how the cuts work.

i suspect we'll just have to disagree fundamentally if incremental progression is taken as individuals getting "pay rises"

Someone who actually understands public service pay.

blanch152

daithi7 wrote: »

serious question for all you public sector union types:

Is there any other country in the world (OECD) giving an across the board pay rise of 2% or more to their public sector at this time???

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/05/26/hanc-m26.html

Well, you do have the UK, where Boris Johnson is killing nurses faster than ever, but still refuses to increase their pay.

If that is what you want, you could move over there.

[Deleted User]

Jim Root wrote: »

That’ll be a no then.

It may or may not be. I don't know the answer, why would you expect us to know the answer to that. If you are interested then google it.

Treppen

daithi7 wrote: »

serious question for all you public sector union types:

Is there any other country in the world (OECD) giving an across the board pay rise of 2% or more to their public sector at this time???

I don't know is there?.. although the question is incorrect for starters because there's no pay rise , it was pay restoration from pay withheld.

NovemberWren

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

the Accountants of that 20%; are you so sure that the private sector are always solvent.

JimmyVik

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/05/26/hanc-m26.html

Well, you do have the UK, where Boris Johnson is killing nurses faster than ever, but still refuses to increase their pay.

If that is what you want, you could move over there.

Sometimes people just talk sh1t for the sake of arguing. You should see his posts in the Sweden covid thread about how Sweden are actually doing great with COVID. Totally off the wall

Hotblack Desiato

NovemberWren wrote: »

the Accountants of that 20%; are you so sure that the private sector are always solvent.

You are replying to a poster who seems to think that tax rises don't reduce public servants' take home pay.

Hotblack Desiato

never_mind wrote: »

I thought covid would have given people the opportunity to reflect on its importance and try to support not demonise it.

Well, that's what a decent person who wasn't cosumed by jealousy or hatred would do.

[Deleted User]

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Oh ffs

AO starts just above the bottom of the EO scale
It finishes equal to the top of the HEO scale

HEO is the grade above EO

Comprenez?

You chose the ONLY grade in the civil service with a pay scale which spans the pay scales of two other grades, in order to cherry-pick some BS point about pay doubling (which even your own figures are nowhere near)

This is a grade for honours degree holders only and recruits in limited numbers, it is regarded as a fast track to promotion to AP so comparatively few AOs would get to the top of their scale without being promoted.

Another spoof.

Increments were postponed for most staff.

Many things including OAP were not cut.

Pensions were also cut with the introduction of PSPR.

daithi7

JimmyVik wrote: »

Sometimes people just talk sh1t for the sake of arguing. You should see his posts in the Sweden covid thread about how Sweden are actually doing great with COVID. Totally off the wall

My posts on the covid thread say nothing of the sort.

I suggest you try to learn to read properly, and to try to comprehend better, before commenting on other's posts.

In the meantime YOU are the only one talking Sh1t for the sake of it!!

But that's what all you're good for, I guess....

daithi7

Treppen wrote: »

I don't know is there?.. although the question is incorrect for starters because there's no pay rise , it was pay restoration from pay withheld.

You mean "Pay restoration" back up to the unsustainable Celtic Tiger levels is it? The ones that could only be funded by one off, unsustainable, property taxes.... tell me, how did that work out again?!?

P.s. isn't it curious that we're being strong armed into 'restoring' PS pay (i.e. increasing it to previously unsustainable levels), while income taxes have not nearly been restored back down to Celtic Tiger levels (e.g. we're stuck with USC, & higher levels of income tax, etc).

So one group of workers are quite clearly receiving preferential treatment, to the cost of others, that's unfair .......

tayto lover

daithi7 wrote: »

You mean "Pay restoration" back up to the unsustainable Celtic Tiger levels is it? The ones that could only be funded by one off, unsustainable, property taxes.... tell me, how did that work out again?!?

P.s. isn't it curious that we're being strong armed into 'restoring' PS pay (i.e. increasing it to previously unsustainable levels), while income taxes have not nearly been restored back down to Celtic Tiger levels (e.g. we're stuck with USC, & higher levels of income tax, etc).

So one group of workers are quite clearly receiving preferential treatment, to the cost of others, that's unfair .......

The PS have been paying those taxes too as well as the pay cut. Double whammy.

mickuhaha

@daithi7

I don't think you get it. The average wage surpassed the highest average wage during the Celtic tiger in 2014 and has been above that since. The unsustainable pay your talking about has been back for awhile at least in the private sector. The public service pay didn't directly increase during the Celtic tiger in line with the Private sector.