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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RyanthePirate

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

Threadbanned Users:
DelaneyIn
TheCitizen
V8 Interceptor
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biko
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Eric Cartman
Swindled
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Cordell - lifted 16/08/21
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blindjustice
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Comments

Rodin

Should have an immigration system like Australia where only essential skils are brought in under a credit system

All asylum seeker applications should be sorted within weeks. If they're not eligible send them home

Nobody who is here only 5 years should get a passport.

suicide_circus

Implicit in the word multicultural is the notion that people largely won't mix and form a new cohesive cultural body but will rather remain seperate and retain their own cultures. At least one culture (presumably the native one) will always be dominant meaning that the other cultures must be "minority" cultures. Unless your minority culture is extremely strong in the areas like education and commerce it is likely that it will suffer to some degree of inequality of outcome which breeds discontent and resentment of the dominant culture.

Doomed to fail? Or is this simply the way it is and our bar for successful multiculturalism is set too high?

Eric Cartman

FVP3 wrote: »

They haven't really integrated because after 2 generations if you integrate you disappear. That said they are not a hostile force within Germany, either and its nice to get good kebabs.

the German unemployment rate in general is 3.9% , 28.5% of turks in Germany are unemployed. Kebabs are lovely, but thats not a sign of integration

from wikipedia :

Turkish immigrants make up Germany's second biggest immigrant group with almost 3 million people and are very poorly integrated, ranked last in Berlin Institute's integration ranking.[76][77]

During a speech in Düsseldorf in 2011, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan urged Turks in Germany to integrate, but not assimilate, a statement that caused a political outcry in Germany

Theres over 57 recognised Turkish gangs operating in Germany and they are the no.1 nationality for running prostitution and human trafficking rackets.

jmayo

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

People bang on about multiculturalism failing in other countries because of a few things they see in the news or websites, when in reality multiculturalism works very well in the UK and France etc for the most part.

So well now that we have how many thousand of immigrants and children of immigrants on terrorist watch lists in those countries ?
The kind of terrorists that hack the heads of soldiers on a city street in broad daylight, the type that hack the head of an elderly priest saying mass, the type that slaughter kids at a pop concert.

I think last count was something like more than 20,000 in UK that have islamist fundamentalist tendencies.

Likewise with France.
What about areas of Paris or British cities where people, women and young girl s in particular, fear to go because of intimidation from immigrants and the children of immigrants ?

Is that ok and is that alright because "for the most part" it works?

biko wrote: »

Possibly India or Uganda?

Well there were quite a few Indians in Uganda until that nice chap Idi decided to turf them out with about as much as they could carry.
Actually they were lucky in a way.

suicide_circus

Eric Cartman wrote: »

. Kebabs are lovely, but thats not a sign of integration

The kebabs comment while funny (and true) is an insight into how a lot of people view multiculturalism - it provides tasty cuisines and an interesting mix of shades in a crowd of people - no more thought than that goes into it.

[Deleted User]

Some have a history of integrating well into a society others do not. But its not acceptable to discuss this in polite society. So we are destined to repeat the mistakes of other western countries much further down the road than us.

Eric Cartman

suicide_circus wrote: »

The kebabs comment while funny (and true) is an insight into how a lot of people view multiculturalism - it provides tasty cuisines and an interesting mix of shades in a crowd of people - no more thought than that goes into it.

thats it, the "you're against illegal immigration, but you'll eat Chinese food" mob.

If all any group of immigrants ever did was come to a country and set up a takeaway nobody would have an issue.

na1

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the German unemployment rate in general is 3.9% , 28.5% of turks in Germany are unemployed.

Irish travellers: "hold my beer..."

kildare lad

na1 wrote: »

Irish travellers: "hold my beer..."

Lol

Lefty Bicek

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Ok well for the most part it doesn't cause any problems, certainly not in Ireland anyway.

Because 'Ireland is different'. Think we've heard that before.

I don't know where you all get the energy to allow this stuff to bother you, it's not going to change any time soon...

If you had my energy levels, you wouldn't have to choose.

I speak up because silence is consent. I don't consent to the failed, and acknowledged-to-be-failed drivel of multiculturalism.

Focus on something positive, go out and clear up some rubbish or something.

Educating the half-baked about the difference between 'immigration', 'multi-ethnic', and 'multiculturalism' is a very positive thing to do.

I never tire of it.

briany

suicide_circus wrote: »

Implicit in the word multicultural is the notion that people largely won't mix and form a new cohesive cultural body but will rather remain seperate and retain their own cultures. At least one culture (presumably the native one) will always be dominant meaning that the other cultures must be "minority" cultures. Unless your minority culture is extremely strong in the areas like education and commerce it is likely that it will suffer to some degree of inequality of outcome which breeds discontent and resentment of the dominant culture.

Doomed to fail? Or is this simply the way it is and our bar for successful multiculturalism is set too high?

All multiculturalism says to me is that there are different cultures in a shared space. Whether that's a perpetual situation is not really alluded to by the word itself. In my opinion, multiculturalism should be a waypoint rather than a destination. The destination ought to be that different cultures in a shared space can eventually arrive at a shared set of values and cultural practices, broadly agreeable to all.

If, on the other hand, you merely have different cultures in the same space, be it a city or a country, and this is a situation that is ongoing and seen as an end, then you really run the risk of increased friction and a breakdown of social cohesion if and when a recession happens and the pie shrinks. At this point, people think of themselves and theirs, and the first people they turn on is those seen as foreign, especially in their behaviour. I think we've seen quite a bit of this emerging out of the period 2008-2014 with the upsurge in the Alt-Right and Nationalism, not that I'm saying those two things are equivalent by any means.

suicide_circus

briany wrote: »

All multiculturalism says to me is that there are different cultures in a shared space. Whether that's a perpetual situation is not really alluded to by the word itself. In my opinion, multiculturalism should be a waypoint rather than a destination. The destination ought to be that different cultures in a shared space can eventually arrive at a shared set of values and cultural practices, broadly agreeable to all.

But we're not moving in that direction. It seems to me that people are far more aware of their cultural differences now than they were 15 years ago. Identity politics, from the right and the left (mainly left) and victimhood as a form of socio-political currency are pushing this trend. MLK would be spat on today with his judging people on the content of their character. Then again, taking up Wibbs' point, Multiculturalism only seems like good sauce for western countries, there is something I don't quite trust about the impetus behind it.

I Am Nobody

FVP3 wrote: »

No he means literally. Literally as fauna I think. Animals.

But that turns out to be a myth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flora_and_Fauna_Act

Thanks for that.

maestroamado

Rodin wrote: »

Should have an immigration system like Australia where only essential skils are brought in under a credit system

All asylum seeker applications should be sorted within weeks. If they're not eligible send them home

Nobody who is here only 5 years should get a passport.

I was talking to a guy who was block-laying contractor last week and i asked how work was doing.
He said he could not get people to work, especially labourers.

So i think what you may mean by essential skills are unskilled people.
This is the reason for people coming here, doing the work Irish were famous for world over and we could go anywhere.
Now we do not want to do and i welcome people who are prepared to roll there sleeves up and earn a living like Irish people did for generations.
I do have a problem with people getting benefit for say first 5 years.
If this is made clear day one they may decide not to come so they have a choice...

briany

suicide_circus wrote: »

But we're not moving in that direction. It seems to me that people are far more aware of their cultural differences now than they were 15 years ago. Identity politics, from the right and the left (mainly left) and victimhood as a form of socio-political currency are pushing this trend. MLK would be spat on today with his judging people on the content of their character. Then again, taking up Wibbs' point, Multiculturalism only seems like good sauce for western countries, there is something I don't quite trust about the impetus behind it.

I'd say we are moving in that direction, although not at a speed nearly fast enough that we'd see it concluded in a generation. If you take the USA as the prime example of a multicultural society, 100 years ago, white and black people could barely even be seen together, and today they fraternise openly all across that country, and there been huge cultural cross-contamination in music, fashion, food, comedy etc. The gap that once yawned so wide, there, has been massively closed.

As for MLK, I think his being spat on is a slight bit of hyperbole. I mean, I don't doubt that there'd be someone who might do that, but I suspect they'd be just a Twitter fanatic type and I don't believe those people are anything like a majority. The rest of the people - the level-headed - would shake his hand.

tayto lover

RyanthePirate wrote: »

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Ask the people of Balbriggan how it’s working for them.

I Am Nobody

tayto lover wrote: »

Ask the people of Balbriggan how it’s working for them.

Where I live,I am still waiting for it.Any day now I''m sure of it.

suicide_circus

briany wrote: »

I'd say we are moving in that direction, although not at a speed nearly fast enough that we'd see it concluded in a generation. If you take the USA as the prime example of a multicultural society, 100 years ago, white and black people could barely even be seen together, and today they fraternise openly all across that country, and there been huge cultural cross-contamination in music, fashion, food, comedy etc. The gap that once yawned so wide, there, has been massively closed.

As for MLK, I think his being spat on is a slight bit of hyperbole. I mean, I don't doubt that there'd be someone who might do that, but I suspect they'd be just a Twitter fanatic type and I don't believe those people are anything like a majority. The rest of the people - the level-headed - would shake his hand.

I hope youre right. As for Twitter Fanatics, they have acquired unbelievable levels of influence unfortunately.

JPCN1

Change like peace should come dropping slow. We have 17% foreign born which to my mind is a great deal in a short space of time.

No harm in pausing and reflecting at this stage especially when the next few years are likely to be difficult.

The asylum process needs to be shortened considerably. It's become a little industry itself.

2u2me

US2 wrote: »

Is there one example in the history of the planet where different cultures have mixed successfully, think about it.

It depends what you mean by mix. When cultures integrate into their society (they adopt some norms of the society, society adops some norms from them) it seems to work exquisitely well.

In fact we can trace many of our cultural habits all the way back through history from various civilizations, every country is the same.

What in fact we see though is those that are pushing the multiculturalism line are also the ones crying about cultural appropriation. It seems they would prefer a society that bunchs people together in groups and retains the culture of the country from which they came. That's what the racists want as well.

Cultural appropriation should be celebrated; that we like that culture so much that we emulate it. We should not be afraid to criticize other cultures either. For example head-hunting culture; I don't want that anywhere near where I live.

So if you mean by multiculturalism that you want lots of cultures living here in their separate groups; yes it seems to be going successfully so far.

Fred Cryton

RyanthePirate wrote: »

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

LEGAL Immigration has a massive net positive effect on the economy.

ILLEGAL immigration is a massive drain on the economy.

Wibbs

2u2me wrote: »

In fact we can trace many of our cultural habits all the way back through history from various civilizations.

Who were almost always invaders. That part seems to be glossed over. The very language we're typing this in is because of invasion and colonisation. Now it's a positive today, but ask many generations of Irish how positive it was in the past. When cultures mix there is nearly always conflict. Look around at the flashpoints today. America has been multicultural by the very nature of it as a country and yet... Brazil is a melting pot, but who are clustered at the top and who are clustered at the bottom. Two thirds of the inhabitants of favelas are Black or mixed. And both of them are founded on invasion and colonisation.

It depends what you mean by mix. When cultures integrate into their society (they adopt some norms of the society, society adops some norms from them) it seems to work exquisitely well.

Name an example. If it works so exquisitely it should be a doddle to name a long list of them throughout history. The problem is that in damned near every single conflict in history it was between cultures and ethnic groups. Them V Us is writ large in our history and it seems in our very nature.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

Who were almost always invaders. That part seems to be glossed over. The very language we're typing this in is because of invasion and colonisation. Now it's a positive today, but ask many generations of Irish how positive it was in the past. When cultures mix there is nearly always conflict. Look around at the flashpoints today. America has been multicultural by the very nature of it as a country and yet... Brazil is a melting pot, but who are clustered at the top and who are clustered at the bottom. Two thirds of the inhabitants of favelas are Black or mixed. And both of them are founded on invasion and colonisation.

Name an example. If it works so exquisitely it should be a doddle to name a long list of them throughout history. The problem is that in damned near every single conflict in history it was between cultures and ethnic groups. Them V Us is writ large in our history and it seems in our very nature.

I always taught the mix of culture in oz/nz or paficic islands was a good fit......no crowd,trying to lord it over another......with a strong government,but a leeway/commonsense application of laws

Though it also leaves many abbos behind too,but thats a similar issue,we have here with travellers....(suspect that modern capitalism isnt the be-all and end all either).....but they have some good/commonsense protections under employment laws to shoulder cultural issue like walkabout too

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Tbf anyone that geos againest grain on boards get shut down/banned,always been that way

.....a few years ago majority posts here would been banned,now its gone to other way around,just the way of the world i guess

I've long held this view towards the modern multicultural politic and wasn't banned. There's a few other areas where I'd go "against the grain" too.

EDIT: The fact you feel.need to take issue with my account length vs content of my posting is another issue,for yous to alone deal with......this is why,reddit is better,it places more emphasis on content vs who is creator

Reddit has the same tendency towards echo chamber as here, if not worse as down/upvoting pushes whatever is the Accepted Truth™ within a sub to the top spot. Dissent on any matter you care to mention in any sub falls off the bottom, so the echo chamber remains in play. Facebook is worse again.

If this thread popped up on Reddit with the same users the OP would have been downvoted to all hell and if you had arrived late to the game you could well have missed what they were saying. Yeah there is the thanks option here, but again you can't avoid reading past the ones who dissent.

One reason why forums became less popular is the increasing drawing of lines and a preference for only hearing voices one agrees with. At least in the forum layout I can read your stuff and you can read mine and can't really avoid hearing different opinions, whether we agree or don't. Increasingly it seems people don't want that. I have found that when people on Boards throughout the years complained about it being too "leftie" or too "righty", the undercurrent was nearly always "they don't agree with me".

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

I always taught the mix of culture in oz/nz or paficic islands was a good fit......no crowd,trying to lord it over another......with a strong government,but a leeway/commonsense application of laws

I'd ask the Maori about that. They still face serious societal issues and have been campaigning for decades about it. Like other minorities elsewhere they're over represented among the poor and those in prison.

Though it also leaves many abbos behind too,but thats a similar issue,we have here with travellers....(suspect that modern capitalism isnt the be-all and end all either).....but they have some good/commonsense protections under employment laws to shoulder cultural issue like walkabout too

Your use of the word "Abbo" is not a good thing. It's very much considered an extremely derogatory term by Native Australians. Whose history of exploitation, abuse, stolen children and murder at the hands of the White man is a horror. You can't compare it with Irish Travellers in a million years.

LiquidZeb

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Why dont you ask them?

Yeah that would end well I'm sure.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd ask the Maori about that. They still face serious societal issues and have been campaigning for decades about it. Like other minorities elsewhere they're over represented among the poor and those in prison.

I used work.with few of them,pronounced mouldy-was a mind blower for me that,and islanders (honestly sound out chaps),they have massive integration and protections in law (yous need learn mauri language and haka etc for citizenship)......but i seen and been to poor areas and chrstal meth is a terrible drug,which im againest prohibition in general,but that ever gets here we are fcuked

Your use of the word "Abbo" is not a good thing. It's very much considered an extremely derogatory term by Native Australians. Whose history of exploitation, abuse, stolen children and murder at the hands of the White man is a horror. You can't compare it with Irish Travellers in a million years.

I didnt even want to take on spelling abroginal,my spelling is terrible

They have had an horrendous time,they are too different vs white settlers/prodestant rethoric of 18th century ,the english were massacring them,while signing treaties with mauris (suspect their best may have been wiped out,but likely venturing into some sketchy eugenics ground there,that id not think good)

Any i met,were sound,bit odd in responding,but hard working etc,but alcohol/weed really destroys them (known a young wan from cork,that worked in both dubai and alice springs,stories she could tell about poverty are a disgrace and oz one of richest countries in world)....

but the traveller comparison is laboured tbf (though id dread to think how a discussion on those woman who got their father imprisiones yesterday would go!)

swarlb

endacl wrote: »

Hard to imagine a dish that can’t be improved by adding a dash of spice.

Good thing.

Not everyone likes spicy food.... plenty love their 'meat and potatoes'

Kermit.de.frog

The utopian vision of multiculturalism hasn't been obtained anywhere in the world.

Maybe Ireland will be different?

nthclare

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The utopian vision of multiculturalism hasn't been obtained anywhere in the world.

Maybe Ireland will be different?

Ennis in Co Clare seems to be doing ok, they're well ahead on multiculturalism and people just getting on with it....

They've the right ingredient for acceptance and inclusion, don't ask me what it is but if you lived in this county for most of your life you'll understand..