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Public service pay cut?

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Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

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daithi7

Really!?!

Seriously, so you're trying to convince me that the differential in public over private sector pay changed by a whopping 40% in just 1-2 years?? And none of us noticed!?!

Yeah right.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dan-obrien-how-the-government-continues-to-prioritise-public-sector-pay-levels-above-all-else-37368536.html

Re Dan O'brien, Sept 30th, 2018

"The latest figures from the Irish State's statisticians show that average weekly earnings in the public sector here are €959. That is more than 40pc higher than in the private sector."

"....The latest Eurostat figures show that in Ireland, it is the seventh highest among the 28 countries of the EU. It is far above both the average in Britain and the average across the EU as a whole. And that is despite Ireland not having an unusually large number of public sector workers in the workforce.

Pay "restoration" is a prime example of all parties' unwillingness to face down a powerful lobby. Restoring pay to bubble-era peaks was always an exercise in inequity....."

maxwell smart

Geuze wrote: »

Irish PS pay is 0.3% below the private sector, although this varies across the pay distribution.

The previous PS pay premium has declined, due to PS paycuts, and lower pay restoration compared to pay rises outside the PS.

OK, lower paid PS, at the 10th percentile, do earn 12.7% more then the private sector, ok.

But non-PS get faster pay progression, so by the 90th percentile, the PS have fallen 17.3% behind.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

"Results from the OLS Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential ranging from 6.8% in 2015 to -0.3% in 2018, for the model which includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. Results for the OLS model which deducts the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential ranging from 1.4% to -3.4%. See Table 4.1.

Summary results from the Quantile Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential in 2018 ranging from 12.7% at the 10th percentile to -17.3% at the 90th percentile for the model which deducts the pension levy and includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. See Figure 4.1 and Table 8.8. The corresponding model which makes no adjustment for the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential in 2018 ranging from 17.6% at the 10th percentile to -13.7% at the 90th percentile. See Table 8.4."

The pensions for people hired since 2011/2013? have been made less generous.

Don't appear to be including the pension numbers in there. That is where a huge difference exists between Public and Private

Scoundrel

daithi7 wrote: »

Really!?!

Seriously, so you're trying to convince me that the differential in public over private sector pay changed by a whopping 40% in just 1-2 years?? And none of us noticed!?!

Yeah right.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dan-obrien-how-the-government-continues-to-prioritise-public-sector-pay-levels-above-all-else-37368536.html

Re Dan O'brien, Sept 30th, 2018

"The latest figures from the Irish State's statisticians show that average weekly earnings in the public sector here are €959. That is more than 40pc higher than in the private sector."

"....The latest Eurostat figures show that in Ireland, it is the seventh highest among the 28 countries of the EU. It is far above both the average in Britain and the average across the EU as a whole. And that is despite Ireland not having an unusually large number of public sector workers in the workforce.

Pay "restoration" is a prime example of all parties' unwillingness to face down a powerful lobby. Restoring pay to bubble-era peaks was always an exercise in inequity....."

Ah yes the newspaper owned by Ireland's biggest tax dodger and proven corrupt oligarch Denis O Brien now why would they publish such anti PS nonsense I wonder? average PS earning is not 959 a week and everyone knows that.

Scoundrel

daithi7 wrote: »

In Ireland public sector pay is 30% greater than the private sector (not including the gold plated,
index linked pensions)

In the UK the differential is just 1%.

Fact is , Ireland pays its public sector far too much and the rest of the workforce and society as a whole must pay for this excess.

Is a travesty, that feeds into things like the cost of Healthcare, policing, etc, etc, etc . That's what bothers neutrals tbh.

Using terms like Gold plated(straight out of IBEC and Indo playbook) in reference to pensions proves you are not neutral.

Should people not get decent pension after a lifetime of work? Or should we all work till we die just to keep making money for those at the top?

fliball123

Scoundrel wrote: »

Using terms like Gold plated(straight out of IBEC and Indo playbook) in reference to pensions proves you are not neutral.

Should people not get decent pension after a lifetime of work? Or should we all work till we die just to keep making money for those at the top?

By all means keep it but please pay the full costs and don't expect others to

maxwell smart

Scoundrel wrote: »

Ah yes the newspaper owned by Ireland's biggest tax dodger and proven corrupt oligarch Denis O Brien now why would they publish such anti PS nonsense I wonder? average PS earning is not 959 a week and everyone knows that.

Just for info he doesn't own it anymore, sold it some time ago....

Scoundrel

maxwell smart wrote: »

Just for info he doesn't own it anymore, sold it some time ago....

He owned it when the article was written

cms88

Scoundrel wrote: »

Using terms like Gold plated(straight out of IBEC and Indo playbook) in reference to pensions proves you are not neutral.

Should people not get decent pension after a lifetime of work? Or should we all work till we die just to keep making money for those at the top?

They can get a priviate one like most people...

Scoundrel

cms88 wrote: »

They can get a priviate one like most people...

Or you could just apply to the PS since it's so great with it's "gold plated" pensions?

cms88

Scoundrel wrote: »

Or you could just apply to the PS since it's so great with it's "gold plated" pensions?

I'm not saying it is. Just wondeing if the PS is so bad why do people keep looking for jobs in it?

JimmyVik

Geuze wrote: »

Irish PS pay is 0.3% below the private sector, although this varies across the pay distribution.

The previous PS pay premium has declined, due to PS paycuts, and lower pay restoration compared to pay rises outside the PS.

OK, lower paid PS, at the 10th percentile, do earn 12.7% more then the private sector, ok.

But non-PS get faster pay progression, so by the 90th percentile, the PS have fallen 17.3% behind.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

"Results from the OLS Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential ranging from 6.8% in 2015 to -0.3% in 2018, for the model which includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. Results for the OLS model which deducts the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential ranging from 1.4% to -3.4%. See Table 4.1.

Summary results from the Quantile Regression model show a public/private sector pay differential in 2018 ranging from 12.7% at the 10th percentile to -17.3% at the 90th percentile for the model which deducts the pension levy and includes size of enterprise as a determining factor. See Figure 4.1 and Table 8.8. The corresponding model which makes no adjustment for the pension levy and excludes size shows a pay differential in 2018 ranging from 17.6% at the 10th percentile to -13.7% at the 90th percentile. See Table 8.4."

The pensions for people hired since 2011/2013? have been made less generous.

Over the last 10 years or so, my salary has increased about 80%.
Compared to a friend who does the same job in the PS whos salary has increased by less than 10%.

Hes doing it for the pension he tells me.

noodler

JimmyVik wrote: »

Over the last 10 years or so, my salary has increased about 80%.
Compared to a friend who does the same job in the PS whos salary has increased by less than 10%.

Hes doing it for the pension he tells me.

Must be at the top of their scale the last ten years.

Ten years of increments plus the annual increases/PRD reductions since 2016 would be significantly above 10%.

An AO in the Civil service would have had their gross double over that period on increments alone.

Hotblack Desiato

AO is an exception as its pay scale starts at the bottom of one grade, and finishes at the top of the next grade up.

noodler

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

AO is an exception as its pay scale starts at the bottom of one grade, and finishes at the top of the next grade up.

AO stops well before AP?

thomasdylan

JimmyVik wrote: »

Over the last 10 years or so, my salary has increased about 80%.
Compared to a friend who does the same job in the PS whos salary has increased by less than 10%.

Hes doing it for the pension he tells me.

I don't believe this. What area does he work in? Has he been top if his salary scale for a decade?

It sounds like he has no ambition for anything more.

Vizzy

noodler wrote: »

Must be at the top of their scale the last ten years.

Ten years of increments plus the annual increases/PRD reductions since 2016 would be significantly above 10%.

An AO in the Civil service would have had their gross double over that period on increments alone.

Nope - AO scales for 1st Jan 2010 is here

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/finance/2009/28.pdf

Rates for 2020 are here https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2019/17.pdf

So assuming the the person entered the scale at the minimum in 2010 €31,619 and received all increments and increases since they would now be on €54,652.
This is a 72% increase (and takes account of all increases under wage agreements etc)not 100%

Also, acording to the scales, the minimum of the scale is less now than it was in 2010, despite all the "huge increases" over a 10 year period.

Hotblack Desiato

noodler wrote: »

AO stops well before AP?

AO starts around the bottom of the EO scale and finishes at the top of the HEO scale. AP is above both HEO and AO.

GooglePlus

Most aren't paid enough.

daithi7

Everything is an exception in the Irish Public Service.

The pay is exceptional. The pensions are truly exceptional. Conditions are exceptional. Their unions are exceptional. And any politician or minister looking to control public sector pay is very exceptional.

And finally, their performance is , well, exceptionally average.... probably below average tbh.

History Queen

daithi7 wrote: »

Everything is an exception in the Irish Public Service.

The pay is exceptional. The pensions are truly exceptional. Conditions are exceptional. Their unions are exceptional. And any politician or minister looking to control public sector pay is very exceptional.

And finally, their performance is , well, exceptionally average.... probably below average tbh.

What is exceptional about the post 2011 pension? Approx 12k after 40 years service (although also eligable to claim state pension of approx another 12k)

Geuze

History Queen wrote: »

What is exceptional about the post 2011 pension? Approx 12k after 40 years service (although also eligable to claim state pension of approx another 12k)

As there are many types of PS, on various salaries, many will get a different pension than 12k.

A teacher with full 40 years service would get a pension of approx 32k-36k.
(That is before the new SPS pension scheme)

History Queen

Geuze wrote: »

As there are many types of PS, on various salaries, many will get a different pension than 12k.

A teacher with full 40 years service would get a pension of approx 32k-36k.

I'm a teacher. Post 2011. We are looking at approx 12k per year plus state pension

Edit: (I say approx because obviously the figures depend on inflation but the figures are from a presentation my union gave in 2019 and was verified by a Cornmarket rep who visited my staffroom last year)

barneystinson

maxwell smart wrote: »

Don't appear to be including the pension numbers in there. That is where a huge difference exists between Public and Private

Well you can try to factor it in then, but you'll need to show your workings please! I've nothing against it, in principle, but it's a tricky exercise, so I hope you've got some actuarial skills to draw on.

Just don't forget to factor in the very different pension terms that entrants in the last 7-8 years are on - so you'll have two different figures for PS workers, pre- and post-Single Scheme. (Three, if you're going to distinguish the pre-95 from the post-95 as well.)

Also, you can't just bring in the PS workers' pension entitlements, without recognising the employer contributions that large employers in the private sector make. Most large private sector employers contribute to their employees' pensions, commonly on a matched basis (this article indicates that more than half of those employers will contribute more than 10% - https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/employers-becoming-more-generous-with-pension-schemes-survey-finds-1.3743127).

Public servants pay contributions towards their pension entitlements, ranging from 6% at the lower end (for those earning < 34.5k) to 14%+ at the higher end (i.e. incomes 125k+). If these were matched by contributions from the State as employer, that'd be a range of 12% - 28%. In the case of public servants, their employer chooses not to fund the scheme with contributions along those lines. I'm no pensions expert, but it seems to me that would go a long way towards funding the pension in an awful lot of cases. .

The concept, promulgated by anti-PS media articles, that the value of a PS pension pot is what it would cost "in the market" to fund an annuity is manifestly incorrect and overstates the cost (conveniently enough). That market cost includes the profit margin taken by the insurance company to pay its own overheads and generate a return for itself - the actual economic cost of paying those pensions, which is what the State actually bears, aggregated across its whole workforce, is that amount with an appropriate discount applied (if anybody knows what kind of profit margins they make in that business...)

Geuze

History Queen wrote: »

I'm a teacher. Post 2011. We are looking at approx 12k per year plus state pension

Edit: (I say approx because obviously the figures depend on inflation but the figures are from a presentation my union gave in 2019 and was verified by a Cornmarket rep who visited my staffroom last year)

Let us check.

I am more familiar with the older pay scales.

https://asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/

Salary Scale and Qualification Allowances for Teachers who entered Teaching on or after 1 January 2011

Teachers who were first appointed to a Department paid teaching position between 1st January 2011 and 31st January 2012 are paid in accordance with the revised salary scale, which includes the Honours Primary Degree Allowance, and any applicable qualification allowances

Teachers who were first appointed to a Department paid teaching position on or after 1 February 2012 are paid in accordance with the revised salary scale which now includes the Honours Primary Degree allowance. See below to view this scale and allowances.

For further information please refer to circular 0041/2019

Post 2011 top of scale = 69,407, a bit higher than I expected. This seems to include the former Degree allowance?

Ok, so the pension will be 50% of final salary, assuming 40 years service.

So the pension will be 34,703.

That is made up of the SPC and a work pension.

The SPC is 248.30 * 52.18 = 13k pa.

So the work pension is 21,703.

Is that correct? I think so.

History Queen

Geuze wrote: »

Let us check.

I am more familiar with the older pay scales.

https://asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/

Salary Scale and Qualification Allowances for Teachers who entered Teaching on or after 1 January 2011

Teachers who were first appointed to a Department paid teaching position between 1st January 2011 and 31st January 2012 are paid in accordance with the revised salary scale, which includes the Honours Primary Degree Allowance, and any applicable qualification allowances

Teachers who were first appointed to a Department paid teaching position on or after 1 February 2012 are paid in accordance with the revised salary scale which now includes the Honours Primary Degree allowance. See below to view this scale and allowances.

For further information please refer to circular 0041/2019

Post 2011 top of scale = 69,407, a bit higher than I expected. This seems to include the former Degree allowance?

Ok, so the pension will be 50% of final salary, assuming 40 years service.

So the pension will be 34,703.

That is made up of the SPC and a work pension.

The SPC is 248.30 * 52.18 = 13k pa.

So the work pension is 21,703.

Is that correct? I think so.

It isn't worked out by final salary. It's a career average pension. So will vary from teacher to teacher depending on whether they had full hours their entire contract (less likely for this cohort due to casualisation and split contract issues in recent years).

Geuze

Ok, so you are talking about the post 2013 SPS pension scheme, ok, fair enough.

Then let me clarify.

Teachers in the pension schemes before the new SPS pension scheme can expect a pension of 32-36k.

History Queen

Geuze wrote: »

Ok, so you are talking about the post 2013 SPS pension scheme, ok, fair enough.

Then let me clarify.

Teachers in the pension schemes before the new SPS pension scheme can expect a pension of 32-36k.

Apologies, just reread my initial post and realised I stated my salary scale but didn't make clear I'm on post 2013 pension.

blanch152

Geuze wrote: »

As there are many types of PS, on various salaries, many will get a different pension than 12k.

A teacher with full 40 years service would get a pension of approx 32k-36k.
(That is before the new SPS pension scheme)

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0041_2019.pdf

Teacher at the top of the scale would be on a salary of 64k. For those that are post-95, but pre-2013, the pension would be only around 20k, plus the State pension of about 12k.

Geuze

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0041_2019.pdf

Teacher at the top of the scale would be on a salary of 64k. For those that are post-95, but pre-2013, the pension would be only around 20k, plus the State pension of about 12k.

Note that those on top of scale at 64k still get qual allowances, as well.

JimmyVik

Geuze wrote: »

Note that those on top of scale at 64k still get qual allowances, as well.

How many years would they have to be working to be at the top of the scale?