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Child Item

Children's football club insurance cover

Dara_Hazer

My 9 year old is a member of a local football club. We pay monthly membership fee €90.
At some point at the end of the last year we were approached to pay extra amount to cover children's insurance.
When asked about details of the insurance the club's management gave some vague answer and promised to email us the details of what are we paying for.
However six months later we still weren't given that info, and now when asking about that I was told that this is clubs private data and it won't be disclosed to just anyone.
So my son has been training there the last 2 years, I am paying in extent of 1k per year and I am refused basic information on the clubs insurance policy?
And to top it all they have been travelling abroad with the group of minors, yet no insurance details to be disclosed?
Are they allowed to do that? Is there a way to check that at all? Should I report it somewhere?
Thank you for all suggestions.

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C3PO

You are paying €90 per month for a 9 year olds football club membership? Surely not?

[Deleted User]

I don’t know if this is the same in your son’s club, my sons rugby club has a standard emergency treatment insurance policy which is included in the registration fee at the beginning of each year. They also advise us to take out an additional policy which is more comprehensive and covers surgery, physio, dental etc costs arising from injuries which occur while participating in club activities.

Also, if your son is travelling abroad, you/the club would need additional insurance cover, perhaps the trip abroad explains the high monthly membership payment.

Dara_Hazer

C3PO wrote: »

You are paying €90 per month for a 9 year olds football club membership? Surely not?

Hard to believe, but yes - that's the price-tag. And one would think they will include insurance within that.
We bit the bullet for a time and were going along with it as the little one was really happy playing there, but then the management started getting appetite and asking for more - and we as parents started asking questions.
We would like to change the club now and get the refund for the training the club failed to provide.
At the same time we requested information on insurance - as we paid for it on top of everything else, yet haven't see no proof that it really was acquired - and we were refused that info.

Dara_Hazer

C3PO wrote: »

You are paying €90 per month for a 9 year olds football club membership? Surely not?

Dav010 wrote: »

I don’t know if this is the same in your son’s club, my sons rugby club has a standard emergency treatment insurance policy which is included in the registration fee at the beginning of each year. They also advise us to take out an additional policy which is more comprehensive and covers surgery, physio, dental etc costs arising from injuries which occur while participating in club activities.

Also, if your son is travelling abroad, you/the club would need additional insurance cover, perhaps the trip abroad explains the high monthly membership payment.

It would make sense, as the fee is quite substantial as someone else observed - the problem is with lack of transparency on the part of the club management and their money grabbing policy - example - last year the club offered to provide winter clothing - at additional cost - and some parents agreed and paid extra to have that sorted. It's mid June and they still haven't received that gear.
So the main problem remains - can I ask for information on insurance that I paid for and are they allowed to withhold that information? Is there something like Consumer Protection Act that would apply in that situation? And is there like a relevant authority I could ask for intervention in that matter?

Mrs OBumble

How is the club organised?

Is it a business or a community organisation? Is it registered as a charity?

I realise that legally there's little difference. But practally, you cannot expect transparency from a business.

Victor

Note that some insurance policies require that the policy holder not reveal certain details about the policy.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

How is the club organised?

Is it a business or a community organisation? Is it registered as a charity?

I realise that legally there's little difference. But practally, you cannot expect transparency from a business.

I concur. If this is a bona fide members club, all members should be entitled to a certain minimum amount of information. A business that merely calls itself a club doesn't. However, it the business wants extra money, it should be willing to justify the extra by reference to documentation.

whippet

I've been involved in the running of a number of football clubs both large and small - and I've never come across a membership fee anywhere close to €90 per month.

The small club I am currently running has a membership fee of €180 per child for the year and this includes insurance - with a small €2 per week levy for a new floodlit astro training area that was installed this year.

The most I've seen is €320 per year and that was a club with top facilities including full size astro pitch, astro training areas, clubhouse etc ..

Insurance is only a couple of grand a year as standard and is usually incorporated in to the annual subscription.

Unless this is a club with elite level training, coaching and facilities i'd be asking some serious questions about your need to pay over a grand a year membership

beauf

That's the most expensive fee I've heard for a kids club Soccer or GAA. I thought ours were high.

I would hope thats must be a top club in the country for that price.
But its behaviour and whats included fall far below what I would expect and be happy with.

I had more posted but it was more about these clubs than than the legal bit. So I deleted it.

I assume the cost of insurance went up but the club are exceptionally poor at communication or something. I wouldn't be happy either way.

Mrs OBumble

Victor wrote: »

If this is a bona fide members club, all members should be entitled to a certain minimum amount of information.

What legal status is there which would make something a bona fide members club, though?

Unless the entity is a registered charity, there are few requirements to disclose financial infornation to customers.

Dara_Hazer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

How is the club organised?

Is it a business or a community organisation? Is it registered as a charity?

I realise that legally there's little difference. But practally, you cannot expect transparency from a business.

That is a good question actually.
I would say they are business as they surly are not charity neither community club.
But I can't say for sure - I asked them for information on CRN and trading name as I could not see their name in registry - which in its own does not say anything actually.
I asked them as well if they have TRN/CHY or Games and Sports Exemption Number.
Unfortunately they are refusing to disclose that either.
As for the club itself they were all right but surely not elite - three trainings a week whole year round, and the coach who was leading my son's section was really sound and dedicated guy. I could see the progress they were making as individuals and the team.
For that I was ready to cough up the fee, but things started getting pear-shaped and a number of parents myself including are moving the children now to other clubs.
The problem is with getting a refund or any information in that matter as the management gone very quiet all of a sudden and refusing to answer or even acknowledge any communication through official channels.
Getting our individual fees back would be something a solicitor would have to be involved in I guess, but I was wondering is there any way to check the clubs insurance cover?

Peregrinus

Let's assume the 'club' is a privately-owned for-profit business. It's not an unreasonable assumption; it's perfectly lawful to run a business with the name "club", and to sell sports coaching services for profit. And nothing in the thread suggests that this operation is being conducted in the way that a members' club would be.

Is there any way a customer of the business is entitled to find out what insurance cover the business has?

Legally, no. The contract of insurance, if any, is a private matter between the insured - the business - and the insurer. As a customer, you can no more demand to know what insurance cover they have than they can demand to know what insurance cover you have.

But you have the power of a customer. You can refuse to do business with them if they do not satisfy you that they have in place whatever insurance cover you think they ought to have in place.

Plus, if you are a customer, and if you have given them your custom on the strength of a representation that they have insurance cover in place, if that representation turns out to be false you can sue them for misrepresentation. But you probably wouldn't find out it was false until an event happened that caused you loss, and ought to have been covered by the insurance that they represented they had, and it turned out they didn't have it.

If I were you, I'd talk to some of the other parents, share your concerns with them, and see if you can get them to work together to demand more transparency, with the threat of removing their children if they aren't satisfied. That will put more pressure on the business than any other course of action open to you.

Dara_Hazer

Peregrinus wrote: »

Let's assume the 'club' is a privately-owned for-profit business. It's not an unreasonable assumption; it's perfectly lawful to run a business with the name "club", and to sell sports coaching services for profit. And nothing in the thread suggests that this operation is being conducted in the way that a members' club would be.

Is there any way a customer of the business is entitled to find out what insurance cover the business has?

Legally, no. The contract of insurance, if any, is a private matter between the insured - the business - and the insurer. As a customer, you can no more demand to know what insurance cover they have than they can demand to know what insurance cover you have.

But you have the power of a customer. You can refuse to do business with them if they do not satisfy you that they have in place whatever insurance cover you think they ought to have in place.

Plus, if you are a customer, and if you have given them your custom on the strength of a representation that they have insurance cover in place, if that representation turns out to be false you can sue them for misrepresentation. But you probably wouldn't find out it was false until an event happened that caused you loss, and ought to have been covered by the insurance that they represented they had, and it turned out they didn't have it.

If I were you, I'd talk to some of the other parents, share your concerns with them, and see if you can get them to work together to demand more transparency, with the threat of removing their children if they aren't satisfied. That will put more pressure on the business than any other course of action open to you.

I think you've hit it on the head there.

Let me go back a bit to put things properly into perspective.
With introduction of lock-down back in March the club has put the training on hold.
At the end of May when the things started turning back to normal, the management informed the parents that they are planning to renew the training - but since the sport objects remained closed - they offer to run the training in the public parks - twice a week instead of the usual three times - at the usual price €90 a month.
That alone raised many eyebrows - as you can imagine - and brought back question about the insurance: what kind of policy do we have, and will that cover potential accidents while training in the public park?
On 3rd of June while trying to discuss this and other issues during Google Meet call between parents and the club manager I was disconnected of the meeting for raising the questions, and my wife's and mine accounts on club's Discord App has been blocked.
I only heard from other parents that after kicking me out of the Meet call, the manager had a fit - yelling and berating other parents - and leaving everyone flabbergasted.
As a result about ten parents I know of are switching clubs with probably more to follow.
The thing is that the club has build up the backlog of undelivered training sessions before March - which were promised to be given back at a later date. With March training cancelled as well, we are looking at some 2 months worth of membership fee - which parents would liked refunded.
On top of that we would like to see the proof that the money paid for insurance were actually spent as declared, or else we would like that refunded as well.
And we are hitting the wall here.
The club management does not reply to official emails.
After trying to communicate through Facebook page it was taken down and is no longer available.
I only managed to get a private message from one of the club staff saying that they are not going to disclose any insurance details.

So while its too late to be putting pressure on the business with threat to removing the children - that ship has sailed - you are right that we stand better chance working as a group rather than trying to work independently.

Peregrinus

You're out of pocket by €180, which is unfortunate, but at least you've cut your losses by bailing out now.

From your description, this business is in trouble; the manager's behaviour is driving customers away and, if it continues, I would think is likely to drive more customers away. And the likely explanation for the manager behaving in such a fashion is that he's under considerable pressure. The business may be in trouble because of disruption to trade from the CV19 pandemic, or for that plus other reasons.

All of which is by way of saying that you could pursue your complaint against this business. But (a) it would be messy, and (b) by the time you get a resolution the business may well have gone to the wall, so you'd still never get your money back. So think about that before you invest too much effort and energy into pursuing the matter.

Dara_Hazer

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're out of pocket by €180, which is unfortunate, but at least you've cut your losses by bailing out now.

From your description, this business is in trouble; the manager's behaviour is driving customers away and, if it continues, I would think is likely to drive more customers away. And the likely explanation for the manager behaving in such a fashion is that he's under considerable pressure. The business may be in trouble because of disruption to trade from the CV19 pandemic, or for that plus other reasons.

All of which is by way of saying that you could pursue your complaint against this business. But (a) it would be messy, and (b) by the time you get a resolution the business may well have gone to the wall, so you'd still never get your money back. So think about that before you invest too much effort and energy into pursuing the matter.

You are probably right on that one as well.
What we are suspecting is happening - the management wants to wait us out, and when all the hubbub dies down and the dissidents left, they will raise the flag again, recruit a new cash cows and keep going as if nothing ever happened.

Well, lesson learned I guess. We'll keep trying.

If I go public with it and present the facts and the names can they sue me for defamation? My wife received a private message from the club manager after I posted copy of my email to the management on their Facebook page - which resulted in the page being taken down within an hour - threatening with a lawsuit. Which is quite curious - the manager ignores my emails - yet within an hour sends message on messenger to my wife - despite that it was not her posting on club's Facebook page.

Peregrinus

If you were still involved with the club you could chat to other parents on the sideline at training sessions.

But, as it is, you've left. I think, cut your losses and don't waste any more time or energy on this. If you have friend and acquaintances who are customers of the club or thinking of becoming customer, warn them off. Otherwise, forget it.

They're charging premium rates and providing a poor service. You won't be the only person to notice this.

Pronto63

C3PO wrote: »

You are paying €90 per month for a 9 year olds football club membership? Surely not?

John Delaney is in charge!!