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Police Shooting USA. Rayshard Brooks.

lawrencesummers

Cops called because a guy was asleep in his car in the queue for a drive through.
Failed field sobriety test.
Tussled with cops.
Shot and killed.
Looks on the outset like another use of excessive Force by police, but there is so much more wrong with it.

One cop has been fired and the other is Put on leave.

Firing somebody that immediately and without due process is probably in a bid to quell the protests - (but it hasn’t) But it can’t be right, surely these matters need investigation, statements and the a just decision, which may well be dismissal / charges filed etc.

There is a big risk of the authorities in the USA actually losing their own police force if they don’t maintain the law and order and due process that everyone deserves. Has the cop in this instance actually violated the procedures That are given to him for arresting people? If a cop needs to be fired then fine, fire hundreds of them but only after due process.

RIP the victim, On his daughters birthday apparently.

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The Nal

mynamejeff wrote: »

again and again this is covered , there is no army police organisation or firearms training course in the world that trains to shoot in the leg ,

a running target at night with a handgun

aim for centre mass if your are going to shoot at all

anything else is Hollywood BS

You also run the high risk of missing and the bullet bouncing off the ground and hitting someone else.

Certainly resisting arrest, stealing a police stun gun and then running away while aiming the stun gun at the police is guaranteed to get you shot.

They need to bring back the choke hold where possible. In this case, one cop puts it on, one observes. Would've been over in 10 seconds and left a living suspect.

mynamejeff

Deleted User wrote: »

No it's not.

Had the incident been in Europe the chances of him being shot are small. European police routinely deal with dangerous situations without their gun leaving their holster.

what are the stats on gun ownership and police getting shot or shot at in Europe compared to the US right now I wonder ?

he probably wouldn't have been shot in Europe your right but the situations are no where near interchangeable

joseywhales

mynamejeff wrote: »

again and again this is covered , there is no army police organisation or firearms training course in the world that trains to shoot in the leg ,

a running target at night with a handgun

aim for centre mass if your are going to shoot at all

anything else is Hollywood BS

Just to be clear in this case the man was unarmed.

Fair enough if he has a handgun but this guy had been checked for a gun , he had a none lethal weapon and was out numbered, even if you aim at his leg and miss, you still have a very high chance of apprehending him. You have his car, you have his id logged.

I am saying a none lethal shot on an unarmed suspect of a non violent crime, seems a lot more acceptable than what happened.

[Deleted User]

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its bizarre people trying to blame the cops on this incident

No it's not.

Had the incident been in Europe the chances of him being shot are small. European police routinely deal with dangerous situations without their gun leaving their holster.

yourdeadwright

gibgodsman wrote: »

Cannot understand this one, the police were completely right in what they did, the second he took the tazer and turned it on the officers all bets were off. Imagine if they just let him taze them and then he could have possibly got a gun and then what? He put himself into that situation, not the officers. Race has nothing to do with this one, play stupid games win stupid prizes. Saying "Would that happen in Ireland" etc doesn't work either, because people over here do not easily have access to guns like America, watch Police Activity on Youtube, you will see just how often Police get shot at

Its bizarre people trying to blame the cops on this incident

biko

joseywhales wrote: »

The one thing that strikes me from all of the shooting scenarios, is why they always shoot to kill. Like surely a bullet in each leg will stop a man?

You find that even a trained officer will not be able to hit someone in the legs if they are moving.
And even if you do it doesn't mean they will fall to the ground.

As a civilian, a soldier or a police officer, you train to hit centre of mass as this is where you are most likely to hit.

mynamejeff

joseywhales wrote: »

The one thing that strikes me from all of the shooting scenarios, is why they always shoot to kill. Like surely a bullet in each leg will stop a man?

again and again this is covered , there is no army police organisation or firearms training course in the world that trains to shoot in the leg ,

a running target at night with a handgun

aim for centre mass if your are going to shoot at all

anything else is Hollywood BS

gibgodsman

Cannot understand this one, the police were completely right in what they did, the second he took the tazer and turned it on the officers all bets were off. Imagine if they just let him taze them and then he could have possibly got a gun and then what? He put himself into that situation, not the officers. Race has nothing to do with this one, play stupid games win stupid prizes. Saying "Would that happen in Ireland" etc doesn't work either, because people over here do not easily have access to guns like America, watch Police Activity on Youtube, you will see just how often Police get shot at

afro man

joseywhales wrote: »

The one thing that strikes me from all of the shooting scenarios, is why they always shoot to kill. Like surely a bullet in each leg will stop a man?

A person with bullet in each leg can still be able to return fire if carrying a weapon...

joseywhales

The one thing that strikes me from all of the shooting scenarios, is why they always shoot to kill. Like surely a bullet in each leg will stop a man?

Danzy

I'd view it as why would police work in areas where even doing your job properly is enough to have the Mayor turn on you, middle class American consider you a savage.

Either way the effect is the same, police, of any colour will minimize activity in African American communities.

ExMachina1000

Overheal wrote: »

I guess ER doctors should refuse to treat them as well?

Where is your moral boundary?

They are not out calling er doctors murderers, scum, racist nor are they asking for er doctors to be defunded or abolished.

Why would a police unit put themselves in danger going into a ghetto at 1 o clock in the morning in response to a call.

Many individual officers womt do it. They have young families at home. Why help these people who hate them so much.

Rioters and protesters have made their bed now.

Donald Trump

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Absolutely. Luckily I do know.

'in charge off' requires the keys to be in the ignition and in most cases the engine to be turned on (modern keyless cars). Its a required ingrediant for a succesful prosecution. read it again:

"A person commits an offence if, when in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place with intent to drive or attempt to drive the vehicle "

It is not an offence to sit in a stationary car and have the key in your pocket. there is zero attempt to drive at such a stage

Right ok. You are correct and the supreme court is wrong
https://app.justis.com/case/dpp-v-byrne/overview/c4CZm1aJnZWca

You can stick in qualifications about "pocket" etc. to try to obscure things. Doesn't change the fact that you would likely be done for it. Once there exists a prima facie case that you are in charge of said vehicle, the burden would fall on you to disprove it. Not impossible, but not easy

[Deleted User]

iebamm2580 wrote: »

He was asked had he gun and was patted down in one of the earlier videos.

thats fair enough but a pat down is very cursary and not a search.

asking if he has one only really matters if the person is being honest and giving them an oppurtunity to disclose. Again, following the steps. Its mostly in reference to the fact the they have the right to carry and therefore they ask and theres a system in place for a legally held firearm to be safely produced. A system we dont have and dont need thankfully.

We do however ask people if they have any weapons on them and prior to drug searches, if they have drugs. Complaince is always the best option in such circumstances but guess what? Criminals tell fibs and sometimes dont tell us about the illegal and sometimes dangerous items they carry. They also sometimes attempt to produce them and hurt Gardai afterwards. Its not uncommon to find junkies carrying open and bloody needles and gotten "Oh yeah, I forgot about that" in reply to the finding of said item after being told they were clean

Its also happened where people are reasonable and complaint for most of the interaction. Will allow you to handuff them, bring them to the station and then for some reason knwon only in their heads, will go nuts inside a cell or search room.

Danzy

Exactly, it was the pointing back that led him to be shot,not his resisting arrest, not his violence, the threat to life.

They disagreed with many that their lives were worth a risk, especially with middle class activists safe at home, in safe neighbourhoods.

Atlanta is not safe and the area it happened is not safe by Atlanta standards.

AbusesToilets

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so you dont have an issue with the police shooting somebody in the back as they run away? a simple yes or no will suffice.

In this scenario, he wasn't shot in the back. he was shot when he turned and pointed a weapon at the officer. Running away doesn't absolve you of the consequences for your actions.

Danzy

iebamm2580 wrote: »

He was asked had he gun and was patted down in one of the earlier videos.

Could it ever be possible that a pat down might miss a weapon?

Could that ever happen, even once?

[Deleted User]

Donald Trump wrote: »

Just because you are not aware of something does not mean it is not true.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/25/section/5/enacted/en/html

Absolutely. Luckily I do know.

'in charge off' requires the keys to be in the ignition and in most cases the engine to be turned on (modern keyless cars). Its a required ingrediant for a succesful prosecution. read it again:

"A person commits an offence if, when in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place with intent to drive or attempt to drive the vehicle "

It is not an offence to sit in a stationary car and have the key in your pocket. there is zero attempt to drive at such a stage

[Deleted User]

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

he was searched for weapons. https://www.atlantamagazine.com/news-culture-articles/what-we-know-so-far-about-the-killing-of-rayshard-brooks/

Thats not a search. Its a pat down, external of clothing only and in certain obvious areas such as pockets. Its most assuredly not a search and is not defined as one.

You have not been correct in one single aspect of this so far, in proceedures, in the equiptment used and its capabilities, in comparisons to Gardai and not in what has actually occured. Not a single area.

[Deleted User]

joe40 wrote: »

Nobody said that at all.
I think everybody acknowledges that if the police man's life was at risk then shooting is appropriate.

In this instance the guy way running away, he was not confronting them, he had already escaped.

The weapon he pointed was their taser they knew it was a taser. He took it from the cop.

There would be outrage in Ireland if the same situation played out and we do value Garda lives.

And since he has been sacked the policeman didn't comply with American standards of policing

Well hang on a second now, hes sacked but thats their system. They also reinstate afterwards. You dont follow the full system to conclusion in 2 days especially when criminal cases overrules civil. The sacking was a kneejerk, tame the crowd response.

Tasers can kill and have and again, police have a duty of care to people that the armed suspect may encounter afterwards. They nor you nor I can state for a fact he would not have harmed anyone else.

Lastly, in the CCTV footage you can see its a second between him turning and firing the taser and being shot by the cop. The cops life matters. hes entitled to defend himself and despite what people think, use force. Police are required to use whatever 'reasonable' force is required to achieve a legal objective. They followed the force continuum at every single step. Let me repeat that, every single step from level 1 to 6 (I think for the US). OK they skipped pepper spray and batons but as he was armed with a level 5, they wouldnt have worked.

You cant keep comparing to Ireland, the Irish want tough policing on people just never them and only until its actually applied. In Ireland Gardai use handcuffs and are accused of brutality. More Gardai have been shot dead by criminals than criminals by Gardai, thats hardly a nice statistic now is it for a society that claims to value Garda lives. Cheaper to bury em than arm em.

then theres the cases where Gardai have been dragged through the courts for using lethal force on a person with a fcking rocket launcher that was hijacking a car ffs!

ohnonotgmail

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Not in the footage I saw, The footage on CNN which includes the restaurants CCTV shows hims point the taser at police and then get shot.

He wasnt just running away, he was aiming a weapon at police. Thats the facts. Thats the footage.

The steps of force escalation are simple, you start small and go up as needed. They tried just handcuffing, they tried physical retraint, then taser and lastly, they used lethal. Thats the force continuum and is similar here as well.

The difference being that the average cop here cant escalate to a firearm and therefore cant be expected to as part of the system. Our system is at that stage to call for armed support for an armed suspect while maintaining personal safety and that of the public. Gardai are expected to try and stop a suspect fleeing. They are expected to try and stop an armed suspect if possible. Armed Gardai can shoot someone dead if they are threatened with a weapon. They wont wait until someone actually shoots them. Again, different country with different rules and thankfully a lot less fatalities on both sides.

You do now understand that a taser can be lethal and used more than once yes? I assume you have googled that now?

Heres the footage I watched: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/14/us/rayshard-brooks-videos-final-moments/index.html

he was searched for weapons. https://www.atlantamagazine.com/news-culture-articles/what-we-know-so-far-about-the-killing-of-rayshard-brooks/

Rolfe asked Brooks to step out of the car at 10:02 p.m. according to bodycam timestamps. He asked to do a weapons pat-down on Brooks, which Brooks consented to. Rolfe didn’t appear to find any weapons. Rolfe then performed two field sobriety tests on Brooks

Donald Trump

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

No such offence in Ireland. Dunno about the US.

Just because you are not aware of something does not mean it is not true.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2010/act/25/section/5/enacted/en/html

patsman07

I posted this late last night, but I really think it is a brilliant article about the whole issue, and it is backed by data throughout.

Please read: https://www.city-journal.org/reflections-on-race-riots-and-police?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Organic_Social

iebamm2580

punisher5112 wrote: »

No he wasn't, they had just tried to cuff him and he ran, they tend to search when in cuffs, simple really the footage is there.

He could have a gun or knife down his pants.

If this is how the cops were to carry themselves then we would be looking at a lot more killed on duty.

He was asked had he gun and was patted down in one of the earlier videos.

[Deleted User]

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

he was searched for weapons. he had none.

Not in the footage I saw, The footage on CNN which includes the restaurants CCTV shows hims point the taser at police and then get shot.

He wasnt just running away, he was aiming a weapon at police. Thats the facts. Thats the footage.

The steps of force escalation are simple, you start small and go up as needed. They tried just handcuffing, they tried physical retraint, then taser and lastly, they used lethal. Thats the force continuum and is similar here as well.

The difference being that the average cop here cant escalate to a firearm and therefore cant be expected to as part of the system. Our system is at that stage to call for armed support for an armed suspect while maintaining personal safety and that of the public. Gardai are expected to try and stop a suspect fleeing. They are expected to try and stop an armed suspect if possible. Armed Gardai can shoot someone dead if they are threatened with a weapon. They wont wait until someone actually shoots them. Again, different country with different rules and thankfully a lot less fatalities on both sides.

You do now understand that a taser can be lethal and used more than once yes? I assume you have googled that now?

Heres the footage I watched: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/14/us/rayshard-brooks-videos-final-moments/index.html

Stablelad123

Ardent wrote: »

Just watched the Atlanta mayor on CNN. She is an example of the worst type of lily-livered, populist political ladder climber.

Talking about "rooting" for Brooks and "just let him go". Boll®cks - you don't make up the rules retrospectively. Give the officers the decency of a full investigation - lots of video evidence to justify their actions - before throwing them under a bus to save your own political skin.

If I was a member of the Atlanta PD I would be seriously considering an organised walkout

If the cop isn't reinstated there will be hell to pay.
Mass walkouts nationwide.

punisher5112

Ardent wrote: »

Just watched the Atlanta mayor on CNN. She is an example of the worst type of lily-livered, populist political ladder climber.

Talking about "rooting" for Brooks and "just let him go". Boll®cks - you don't make up the rules retrospectively. Give the officers the decency of a full investigation - lots of video evidence to justify their actions - before throwing them under a bus to save your own political skin.

If I was a member of the Atlanta PD I would be seriously considering an organised walkout

Blue flue.....

They really could do with using it now....

Who will protect the mayor and these other loonies then.

Ardent

Just watched the Atlanta mayor on CNN. She is an example of the worst type of lily-livered, populist political ladder climber.

Talking about "rooting" for Brooks and "just let him go". Boll®cks - you don't make up the rules retrospectively. Give the officers the decency of a full investigation - lots of video evidence to justify their actions - before throwing them under a bus to save your own political skin.

If I was a member of the Atlanta PD I would be seriously considering an organised walkout

punisher5112

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

he was searched for weapons. he had none.

No he wasn't, they had just tried to cuff him and he ran, they tend to search when in cuffs, simple really the footage is there.

He could have a gun or knife down his pants.

If this is how the cops were to carry themselves then we would be looking at a lot more killed on duty.

Danzy

joe40 wrote: »

I take your point, probably the main problem is the massive inequality that exists, which disproportionately affects black communities. Poor education, poor health care, poor mental health support, no social welfare.
And of course gun control.

They're all long term problem that America does not seem to be able to get a handle on.

Police brutality is another problem and obviously violent crime is a factor but how many controversial deaths have we seen where the police were not in danger but still killed someone.

They're not all down to over anxious nervous cops.

Even some of the ways protestors were handled show that a police mentality that is far too macho and aggressive.

It's simply not working and is totally counterproductive.

The police are not the only issue but the way some police behave and they are part of the problem.

Broadly agree.